[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Teleros]

While I agree with most of your points I wonder if our feedback is overall just too vague. Currently as community we are complaining about......everything. From talents to baseline skills to mastery to mobility to the whole judgment debacle.

Whilst you have a point, I think this is also... telling, shall we say.

= + =

Every melee has autoattack, does it make them feel the same?

Monks were never going to have one, originally.

Look how that turned out :P .

= + =

In other news... who hacked Bryiah's account? He's asking for Divine Storm the Sorrow Steed (20sec CD) now :O .

[Deleted]

who fething cares
if you're unheard the point is moot

Like I've said before, people have waited until they had access to the beta to provide that feedback thinking that forum is the only place they'll be heard. This simply isn't true. There are some feedback that Blizzard listened to during alpha:

1) The early talents had a few options where it was just percentage increases to baseline abilities. A lot of people on more open access areas of the official forums took issue with this. There wasn't much of a representation of this in the alpha feedback thread. Blizzard still responded and initially took away all such talents (one now exists).

2) People asked for a DP type proc once conviction was removed during the alpha. Again, this came from more open access forums rather than the alpha specific ones - they responded by providing, not just a DP type proc, but DP itself.

The fact that so many provided this feedback on non-alpha forums meant that a lot of people were following the development of the spec even without access to testing for themselves. I and others implored people to raise these issues en masse on the normal class threads. It didn't happen then and it is too late now. I know it's annoying for people who are only just getting into the beta to feel like now they can provide more meaningful feedback (due to testing themselves instead of watching someone else do it) to feel that nothing will be heeded but that's where we are. Although tuning can carry on up to and even beyond launch, as it always does, in no more than about 6 weeks we have the pre-Legion patch. At this point all of the mechanics, talents, etc will be pretty much set. Yes, after WoD release, they changed attack speed to haste on Seraphim after being ignored all through Legion beta, but they didn't tear down any gameplay systems and start again.

I think people should still provide feedback, of course, as some desirable changes wouldn't take much to implement even now were there a large enough voice, but the level of change being asked for now is just coming too late.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Whilst you have a point, I think this is also... telling, shall we say.

I think you might be hinting a something

Monks were never going to have one, originally.
Look how that turned out :P

we were going to be compensated for nonexistant mobility in other aspects.
Look how it turns out

In other news... who hacked Bryiah's account? He's asking for Divine Storm the Sorrow Steed (20sec CD) now :O .

He\she\it always were stating our mobility is lacking, so he/she/it is not that deranged as it might seem.

Divine Storm the Sorrow Steed

ara ara~

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The fact that so many provided this feedback on non-alpha forums meant that a lot of people were following the development of the spec even without access to testing for themselves. I and others implored people to raise these issues en masse on the normal class threads. It didn't happen then and it is too late now. I know it's annoying for people who are only just getting into the beta to feel like now they can provide more meaningful feedback (due to testing themselves instead of watching someone else do it) to feel that nothing will be heeded but that's where we are. Although tuning can carry on up to and even beyond launch, as it always does, in no more than about 6 weeks we have the pre-Legion patch. At this point all of the mechanics, talents, etc will be pretty much set. Yes, after WoD release, they changed attack speed to haste on Seraphim after being ignored all through Legion beta, but they didn't tear down any gameplay systems and start again.

I think people should still provide feedback, of course, as some desirable changes wouldn't take much to implement even now were there a large enough voice, but the level of change being asked for now is just coming too late.

While I wholly agree with you Thete, I would like to ask you one thing.

Do you know how many times did they listen to feedback provided on non-alpha/beta but normal class forums?
How many times did you see it mentioned on the MMO-C frontpage?
How many times did you see it mentioned at AskTheDev?
How many of them were from non-US boards?
How many of them were from Russian boards?

I tell you how many.
Three.
Three whole times russian players were recognised as far as I can tell from WotLK to this very moment.

They don't even check non-US most of the times.

[Teleros]

They don't even check non-US most of the times.

FWIW I think the policy here is that the CMs aggregate all the feedback & forward it to them.

[Deleted]

They don't even check non-US most of the times.

I'd be perfectly willing to believe that non-English forums are largely ignored. Even the English EU forums are - our blue posters are just people who mostly make the tea and just copy/paste real blue posts from the US forums. However, there are a large number of English speaking players on US realms who could have been providing feedback on mobility, the limitation of the new mastery system, the holes in the greater blessing system, all the things they would have been reading about if they were also looking at talents and the sudden lack of procs. But the silence then was almost absolute. No, getting rid of a talent that gave you a more powerful version of a baseline ability was far more important.

[Morally Grey Storm]

FWIW I think the policy here is that the CMs aggregate all the feedback & forward it to them.

works out fine in the end doesn't it?
Provides it's fruits eh?
eh?

[Deleted]

Let's get the facts straight:

We're all paladin players. Most of us also have all other chars at lvl 100. If you don't do it now. I feel like, 90% of this topic is about Retribution. Retribution is "meh" since, MoP. MoP is now few years ago. Still nothing has changed which makes our Char "fine". Look at the enhancement shaman, it's now FOTM and was dogshit before. Maybe there will be something similar with Rets? Maybe yes, maybe not. The recent changes don't look like that.

If you compare the Retribution with all other classes in the game and the recent "class identities" AND the D3 Crusader. Look at the D3 Crusader, look at his class identity. Alot of this could be used to create a fine retribution paladin. The problem is, most of it is in conflict with warrior or priest and if there is no conflict, everything "cool" is exclusive to the prot paladin. Look at Crusader Charge. WTF? Prot Paladin has it, Ret doesnt. And at last, there are few new spells, which are cool. Mounting up in combat, everywhere. This is great. And this is for 2 Seconds with a 45Seconds Cooldown.

So even if there are possiblities to improve Ret, they don't do it and if they do it, they do it wrong.

So, I'll recommend, stick to the FOTM class and be happy with the faceroll.

[Morally Grey Storm]

So, I'll recommend, stick to the FOTM class and be happy with the faceroll.

[Teleros]

I feel like, 90% of this topic is about Retribution.

Yes, we drove out all those insufficiently zealous :P .

Are you insufficiently zealous?

You sound insufficiently zealous to me.

If you compare the Retribution with all other classes in the game and the recent "class identities" AND the D3 Crusader. Look at the D3 Crusader, look at his class identity. Alot of this could be used to create a fine retribution paladin. The problem is, most of it is in conflict with warrior or priest and if there is no conflict, everything "cool" is exclusive to the prot paladin. Look at Crusader Charge. WTF? Prot Paladin has it, Ret doesnt. And at last, there are few new spells, which are cool. Mounting up in combat, everywhere. This is great. And this is for 2 Seconds with a 45Seconds Cooldown.

1. Divine Steed lasts 3 seconds.
2. You're not saying anything new.

So even if there are possiblities to improve Ret, they don't do it and if they do it, they do it wrong.

Still nothing new.

So, I'll recommend, stick to the FOTM class and be happy with the faceroll.

[Vintersol]

Can someone share the link to Briyahs post?

[Deleted]

"This build does have a 750ms minimum GCD in all cases. This is something we're trying out provisionally to see how it works on beta."
Bluepost in the Theorycrafting Thread, I think that would make "more haste" more useful then?

@Storm
In other words "Be Ret or be dead"?

Regarding Feedback:
Well, as much as I like a lot of the mentioned ideas, I'm with Thete and Bryiah that some things seem to be "too much" at this point.
I don't think they would change the whole Ret system aside from "smaller" things. A complete overhaul won't happen.
It might be useful to look at the biggest problems and too look for "easier" solutions to fix them.
Most things have been mentioned a few times..
Mobility:
Divine Steed Baseline and a new talent in its place (maybe improving it?)
Seal of Light's biggest problem is its HP use. Therefore remove it and give it a CD or limit the HP use to 1 Holy Power.

Rotation:
I don't think it's a big problem, but the wasting of ressources IS a big problem. I still believe 6 Holy Power would solve this issue. I like the idea of Crusader Strike not having a CD, but.. don't know if this might happen.

AoE/Judgement-thing
Well, Judgement as a self buff has been mentioned a lot of times and would help our AoE/target switching problem.

Greater Blessings
Well, still the same old thing. It would work way better, if we could buff every Blessing once instead of three blessings with 3x Might or 2x Might 1x Wisdom and so on.

Well that wouldn't solve all problems, but I think those are "smaller" changes for a big improvement of the overall feeling of the specc.

Maybe everyone with Beta Access should spam those things via ingame Feedback every day?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Can someone share the link to Briyahs post?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...21?page=30#584

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@Storm
In other words "Be Ret or be dead"?

FOTM is only for the weak.

[Vintersol]

Thanks. It's sad that we are in the spot now where major problems won't get fixed that are present since alpha start and people start to realise that all we can do is begging for small changes which won't make the spec good rather than "shit, but i can maybe live with that".

[Anardel]

Thanks. It's sad that we are in the spot now where major problems won't get fixed that are present since alpha start and people start to realise that all we can do is begging for small changes which won't make the spec good rather than "shit, but i can maybe live with that".

Fun fact, when people started pointing out the major flaws of the spec, the community started the mantra "it's only alpha guys, don't worry". Suddenly from one week to another, that second group started "oh c'mon guys, it's too late now, that boat has sailed and we won't see any changes to mastery, mobility/whatever". Da fuq guys? Now we have two fucking months left until launch and major flaws still exists.

This alpha/beta demonstrated that we need to be more violent about our claims. Giving feedback in a civilised manner, speaking with good words, explaining etc. didn't work. We can see top players like Thete or Solsacra being ignored, so what's the point on keeping a low profile and acting like that? At first I was negative but with a little hope. Now I'm totally hopeless. The Ashbringer expansion will be our worst expansion; I'd much rather throw the Ashbringer out of a bridge if that serves to improve the spec.

Sorry if I have bad grammar, I'm Spanish so English isn't my mother language.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Fun fact, when people started pointing out the major flaws of the spec, the community started the mantra "it's only alpha guys, don't worry". Suddenly from one week to another, that second group started "oh c'mon guys, it's too late now, that boat has sailed and we won't see any changes to mastery, mobility/whatever". Da fuq guys? Now we have two fucking months left until launch and major flaws still exists.

Some of us didn't act like flip-floppities.

[Fargus]

See, what did I tell you guys?

Many pages back, I said as long as Kalgan is calling the shots, ret will be gutted. He's hated them from day one. And don't give me this "but he's a professional, he wouldn't let his biases get in the way" bullshit. He's human, and all humans have their own little biases and agendas.

And I will personally choke any little Elegon-like dragon pet I see. That dev in particular is the one implementing these changes, and I recall they had a very snarky and condescending attitude to a ret that was giving constructive feedback.

The dev responsible for this should be moved to another department. Is there anyone at Blizzard who plays ret at all? They don't seem to have any idea about what they're doing. Remember how terrible ret was at the beginning of Cata? This seems a lot worse.

[Matt0193]

The dev responsible for this should be moved to another department. Is there anyone at Blizzard who plays ret at all? They don't seem to have any idea about what they're doing. Remember how terrible ret was at the beginning of Cata? This seems a lot worse.

They admitted that no one in their office plays a Sub Rogue, so I wouldn't be surprised if no one plays a Ret as a main spec or with any competence.

[Deleted]

See, what did I tell you guys?

Many pages back, I said as long as Kalgan is calling the shots, ret will be gutted. He's hated them from day one. And don't give me this "but he's a professional, he wouldn't let his biases get in the way" bullshit. He's human, and all humans have their own little biases and agendas.

And I will personally choke any little Elegon-like dragon pet I see. That dev in particular is the one implementing these changes, and I recall they had a very snarky and condescending attitude to a ret that was giving constructive feedback.

The dev responsible for this should be moved to another department. Is there anyone at Blizzard who plays ret at all? They don't seem to have any idea about what they're doing. Remember how terrible ret was at the beginning of Cata? This seems a lot worse.

I had alot of pleasure killing him in Ashran, i'll tell you that.

Every time the horde keep was charged i would make sure to take him out. Sadly it wasn't on my paladin though. My warrior is my pvp character for funsies. A guilty pleasure. ^^

[Morally Grey Storm]

They admitted that no one in their office plays a Sub Rogue, so I wouldn't be surprised if no one plays a Ret as a main spec or with any competence.

tbh devs aren't supposed to play their game.
they are devs, not players or testers.

[Vintersol]

I've just realized that even a fucking enh shaman got a gap closer and still has access to ghost wolf... idk but it seems that blizzard does a massive crusade against ret paladins.