[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Cyous]

This attitude is why we constantly go into expacs with half-baked / band-aid mechanics. Devs not being interested in changing something that's a problem is grounds for MORE feedback, not less. If you (and especially Cyous, being one of the most influential druids) won't advocate for your class, who will?

I've made numerous suggestions on numerous subjects. The community has made numerous suggestions on numerous subjects. They've made a ton of changes since Alpha started, most of them suggested by members of the community. I dislike some talent designs myself (NB, StD, MassRoot,FeralAff), but it's not my decision. It's not because I don't care, I'm putting more effort into tuning at this point.

I've debated Stellar Drift's mechanics for almost the entire Alpha and Beta phases. I've done the same for Nature's Balance. We still have a release-ready spec, and if tuning can make things more appealing, then I'll be happy with that. Ultimately, they made nearly all their changes based on suggestions from us. We've done well for a spec that isn't a Mage spec.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - - -

To add, I seriously believe Stellar Drift will be fine if the Damage Bonus jumps a huge amount. (20% --> 100%). Especially after the recent buff to Starfall, that would make Starfall stronger than Empowered DOT ticks. Sure you lose FOE, but you can sustained AOE -- which could be good for something like PVP. It would be a pretty buff.

Nature's Balance, I know it won't change. But if anything, SW and LS deal 6% more damage to targets afflicted by your moonfire and sunfire.

[Mystikal]

Perhaps Nature's Balance could incorporate the old 4T10 Languish effect and cause critical strikes from Solar Wrath and Lunar Strike to cause an ignite-style DoT on the target. It's still very passive, but it might be enough to feel like it's 'different'.

[huth]

While I completely agree NB and especially SD are extremely boring right now, I don't think increasing their damage is right at all. At the moment, one of the reason FoE is strong is because picking it is a very small single target dps loss. If NB or SD were replaced with a flat 10% dps increase, we would basically never pick FoE because of how much single target damage we would lose. SD and NB should be changed to some cool effects that influence how you play, but they should be minimal dps increases (much like they are now). I think that is the idea behind them in the first place, they just fail to deliver. An example (that is unlikely to happen) would be to have SD make starfall 40y aoe centered on the boomkin like in WoD. It's a cool effect that makes you feel more powerful (much like FoE) without actually increasing numbers and alters how you play.

FoE not being the only viable option is the goal, not a counter argument.

FoE already has a pretty good niche as a Burst AoE option, we need something for the other two to not be entirely useless and to actually have a viable option for pure single target fights.

[Deleted]

FoE not being the only viable option is the goal, not a counter argument.

FoE already has a pretty good niche as a Burst AoE option, we need something for the other two to not be entirely useless and to actually have a viable option for pure single target fights.

I never said I didn't want the other options to be viable, you're making that shit up. We don't need a single target option, BECAUSE it makes picking FoE hurt our single target damage significantly. SD's current design has the right intention, as it tries to make our starfall aoe better (but obviously fails horribly to do so).

[Lucrece]

I just hope they replace Nature's Balance.

What a horribly boring talent. Shadow priests get dot extension for free on Void Bolt while we have to pay for a talent to do the same boring crap.

They could just make Nature's balance spread your Moonfire to nearby targets whenever you impact a target with Lunar Strike.

But that doesn't solve our lack of a single target talent.

Which is why I think they should just buff the living hell out of Stellar Flare and switch it to the final tier, place a 10-12 sec cd on it so it's like our version of Unstable Affliction. A really strong single target dot.

[wing5wong]

I wanna see a shorter duration, harder hitting StFl personally. so it can be used as burst priority, but also on councils.
Maybe a dot that consumes MF/SnF, or that makes MF/SnF tick when StFl does.

Right now its spot is only viable for non-priority, non burn, councils.
It sucks for levelling, the duration is too long, and it uses asp which could be better spent on SF/SS/FoE


NB.... its the easy talent, but agree, its pretty lame for a T100. Could definitely use an additional effect such as a "bleed" when hit, or just increased damage.


Im happy with balance right now (mostly).
Stellar Flare, Stellar Drift, Feral Affinity are the talents i see with the most issues right now,
FoE and NB could use a touch up. Larger radius (5-8yd) for FoE and movable while casting would fix it IMO.

[Alame]

I just hope they replace Nature's Balance.

What a horribly boring talent. Shadow priests get dot extension for free on Void Bolt while we have to pay for a talent to do the same boring crap.

They could just make Nature's balance spread your Moonfire to nearby targets whenever you impact a target with Lunar Strike.

But that doesn't solve our lack of a single target talent.

Which is why I think they should just buff the living hell out of Stellar Flare and switch it to the final tier, place a 10-12 sec cd on it so it's like our version of Unstable Affliction. A really strong single target dot.

It's another relic of WoD Boomkin, minus the damage boost to DoTs. Problem being it made sense to simplify the rotation with sine-wave eclipse because you didn't have access to both DoTs & casted both Starfire & Wrath regularly, so DoTs were auto-maintained and you weren't punished for missing the refresh window.

Except now we have access to Moonfire and Sunfire refreshes whenever we want, and while I haven't done the math I suspect simply refreshing Moonfire is superior to casting unempowered Lunar Strikes to extend Moonfire's duration.


I just don't understand why they tried to revamp the central mechanic of the spec, then left all these relic tie-in mechanics lying around. They're all awkward and out of place, it really strikes me as sloppy design. It's this kind of stuff that keeps bringing me back to the idea that the design team doesn't have a Balance player on it - I honestly don't see how anyone who plays Boomkin at a somewhat high level and who's job is to completely understand the mechanics and design of the class misses this.

- - - Updated - - -

I never said I didn't want the other options to be viable, you're making that shit up. We don't need a single target option, BECAUSE it makes picking FoE hurt our single target damage significantly. SD's current design has the right intention, as it tries to make our starfall aoe better (but obviously fails horribly to do so).

I disagree that we don't need a single-target option, but we already have one (as much as you can say that) in Nature's Balance.

As it stands, on a strictly single-target fight our choice of level 100 talent is meaningless. You might as well take Nature's Balance because you're not going to spend AsP on Starfall/FoE over Starsurge, and saving GCDs on DoT refreshes is the best single-target option we have. Which is embarrassingly bad.


Level 100 talents are really nicely set up concept-wise. FoE for clumped/burst AoE, SD for spread/sustained AoE, NB for single/spread council. Problem is 2/3 fall horribly short of their intended role.

[Deleted]

All a single target option in LV 100 talents would do is make our single target worse whenever we pick up one of the aoe choices. I for one am looking forward to not doing terrible dps for the rest of the fight just because I want to do well on an add wave or two.

[huth]

All a single target option in LV 100 talents would do is make our single target worse whenever we pick up one of the aoe choices. I for one am looking forward to not doing terrible dps for the rest of the fight just because I want to do well on an add wave or two.

So your issue is that you would have to make an actual tradeoff and choice? That's exactly what talents are meant to do. So, by your own admission, they aren't working right now.

[Xeromus]

I'm switching from Hunter to Balance for Legion and reading through the thread has given me a fair bit of insight on the gameplay overall. Personally I like the new build/spend since it is a smooth transition from focus (and due to not having passive regeneration unless talented makes overcapping less of an issue)

I've got the rough mechanics down, but i'm still curious/unsure on openers since i've seen and heard various ways of doing it (some advocating opening with FoE+MoonMoon then dotting and using FoN+Inc.. Some saying not to use FoE at all ST and to instead apply dots, pop FoN+Inc and use starsurges then go into a normal sorta ebb/flow of maintaining dots and spending charges) so I was curious what's the correct, or atleast a good universal way to be opening on bosses =x any help appreciated

[Deleted]

So your issue is that you would have to make an actual tradeoff and choice?

I want a tradeoff, not between single target and aoe, but between aoe and multidot, some other multi target dps, or some other niche that doesn't have a major effect on single target. Example of what I do want: MM hunter L90. Example of what I don't want: destro L30.

[Vurrin]

If I were to change Nature's balance I'd probably just make either Lunar Strike and/or Starsurge trigger/spread Moonfire to all the nearby targets. This way NB could be used to maintain ~2 dots on two targets that are separated, but also immediately spread dots to small spawning adds near the main targets. Without making it any harder to play. TBH it doesn't even have to be 100% something like galactic guardian from guardian spec would also be neat but I prefer it being tied to lunar strike than say being priced into Starfalling to put moonfires on everything... although that would be powerful.

[Kyanion]

If I were to change Nature's balance I'd probably just make either Lunar Strike and/or Starsurge trigger/spread Moonfire to all the nearby targets. This way NB could be used to maintain ~2 dots on two targets that are separated, but also immediately spread dots to small spawning adds near the main targets. Without making it any harder to play. TBH it doesn't even have to be 100% something like galactic guardian from guardian spec would also be neat but I prefer it being tied to lunar strike than say being priced into Starfalling to put moonfires on everything... although that would be powerful.

Hell maybe add that and just slightly increase the range those dots spread from 5 yards to 10 or something. (I believe it 5 on beta for sunfire spread).

[Cyous]

I'm switching from Hunter to Balance for Legion and reading through the thread has given me a fair bit of insight on the gameplay overall. Personally I like the new build/spend since it is a smooth transition from focus (and due to not having passive regeneration unless talented makes overcapping less of an issue)

I've got the rough mechanics down, but i'm still curious/unsure on openers since i've seen and heard various ways of doing it (some advocating opening with FoE+MoonMoon then dotting and using FoN+Inc.. Some saying not to use FoE at all ST and to instead apply dots, pop FoN+Inc and use starsurges then go into a normal sorta ebb/flow of maintaining dots and spending charges) so I was curious what's the correct, or atleast a good universal way to be opening on bosses =x any help appreciated

Howdy.

We haven't min/max'd the opener yet. But there is a ton of variation available. FOE is basically a single-target-neutral spell with AOE-friendly mechanics. Making use of the AOE is an extremely high DPS increase.

I don't believe pre-pull Incarnation is a good idea -- but after you drop all of your MoonMoon spells, yep.
LS,NM,HM,FM,MF,SnF = 86|90 Astral Power. Then you use Incanration/CA and cast two Starsurges. Cast accordingly.

[huth]

Hell maybe add that and just slightly increase the range those dots spread from 5 yards to 10 or something. (I believe it 5 on beta for sunfire spread).

5y baseline, with a pretty early trait for 10y.

[wing5wong]

well the trait is early, but is on the last leg you would want to be completing right?
going from PoG -> M&S ->ES. unless you backtrack and put 4 in to get the 5yd increase earlier

[huth]

well the trait is early, but is on the last leg you would want to be completing right?
going from PoG -> M&S ->ES. unless you backtrack and put 4 in to get the 5yd increase earlier

Well, the pre-req is 18% crit for SS. So it might very well be worth it.

[Kyanion]

5y baseline, with a pretty early trait for 10y.

hmm you are right that isn't very far into the tree at all. Well that nixes that idea.

[Owlkin]

hmm you are right that isn't very far into the tree at all. Well that nixes that idea.

It's not as cheap as you think. Every next trait is much more expensive than the previous one. If you spend a couple of points on the dead-end traits you are automatically put off getting large traits for days.

Small illustration traits prices.

[Cyous]

Keep in mind, there should be a system in place to speed up that process for your Artifact. If this is not the case, then let's complain.