Warlock Legion PvP thread.

[Faenskap]

OMG they made a caster tank! The build while having ZERO mobility can tank like a boss and setup huge burst ..

Well, if they have no mobility, they should have another upside, surely? I suspect blizz will look into the burst potential of demo's artifact weapon, as that appears to be what's oneshotting

[Champagne Supernova]

OMG they made a caster tank! The build while having ZERO mobility can tank like a boss and setup huge burst ..

Fair trade i imagine. Other specs have mobility. Demo could be a force to be reckoned with in arena i hope, Casting circle and fel lord stacked on top each other, then just cast away and setup TC on the healer with soul harvest and Service / Synergy active and doomguard before you empower and TC. Let's say you took the improved dreadstalkers talent as well, and also had 4 imps from HoG. Best case scenario you have all out at once, empower and then TC (Assuming it still is 10% drained hp for damage) 9-10 demons depending on talents,Roughly 90-100% drained hp plus 20% damage buff (50% if you took synergy and it procs on you) That's annihilation if the stars align and the enemy lets you cast :P Even better if you manage to get one of these legendary - http://www.wowhead.com/item=132379&bonus=1811 or http://www.wowhead.com/item=132393&bonus=1811 Which will probably be disabled in pvp but for pve that's a lot of burst.

Wonder how Destro is now following the recent changes, i assume pretty mobile in comparison to demo.

[wholol]

Surely Fel lord's uses are amazing tbh, if it lasts that long, you place it under your healer in arena and any melee cleave will have to gtfo or get knocked down and pummeled to a pulp which basically provides your healer with extreme peels.

[sugarfree]

Anyone have or know of a video of the Fel lord talent? Would be interesting to see if he is permanent until killed or a one time use guy once he deals his damage / stun .

It has a duration, same with Observer. Both of them deal high damage. The whole row is actually VERY situational, the go-to is the Instant Dreadstalkers talent, but these 2 are nothing to sneeze at.

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Well, if they have no mobility, they should have another upside, surely? I suspect blizz will look into the burst potential of demo's artifact weapon, as that appears to be what's oneshotting

It's the Implosion + Consumption that's too strong. I'm sure they are going to nerf both abilities. Individually, they are already too strong, lining them up is just OP.

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Surely Fel lord's uses are amazing tbh, if it lasts that long, you place it under your healer in arena and any melee cleave will have to gtfo or get knocked down and pummeled to a pulp which basically provides your healer with extreme peels.

It's amazing for a Casting Circle build. Just summon him, cast a circle and then drain tank for God's mercy.

[Deleted]

they can just tune them specifically for pvp, and i suspect thats what will happen tbh, something of the likes of "implosion deals 50% damage against players"
TKC is a cast with 45s cd anyway so i wouldnt really be worried about that being nerfed, since beside that spell in a chain demo has no real burst window (assuming they nerf implosion)

[sugarfree]

they can just tune them specifically for pvp, and i suspect thats what will happen tbh, something of the likes of "implosion deals 50% damage against players"
TKC is a cast with 45s cd anyway so i wouldnt really be worried about that being nerfed, since beside that spell in a chain demo has no real burst window (assuming they nerf implosion)

Hitting for 1m damage is definitely going to be nerfed. And to be quite honest, I don't mind nerfed Implosion and TKC if it means they'll buff sustained damage a bit more. The spiky damage of Demo warlocks irks me so much.

[wholol]

Hitting for 1m damage is definitely going to be nerfed. And to be quite honest, I don't mind nerfed Implosion and TKC if it means they'll buff sustained damage a bit more. The spiky damage of Demo warlocks irks me so much.

They probably won't buff sustained damage , given the history of warlock nerfs ^^

Btw anyone knows if the JC neck that heals us when our summoned demon dies works on minions too ? that would be sick with implosion in outdoor activities.

[wholol]

I want someone with beta access to test something for me using affliction, it's pretty much theory-crafting at this point but I believe we can achieve insane amount of sustained damage with affliction.

If anyone wants to try this out plz pick the following talents: contagion,soul harvest, soul conduit ( rest is optional) and in the pvp talents plz pick: mind quickness, curse of fragility, soulburn , rot and decay ( rest is optional ).

Now what I want to test is, build 5 shards and do this rotation on a player plz :

Soulburn -> UA -> soulburn -> UA ( you should have 1 shard left if no soul conduit proc ), UA. (IF soul conduit procs 1 shard, add SB: UA and drain life to sustain the UA until u get 1 more shard to cast a non SB;UA ).

the optimal rotation i want to try is, SB:UA x3 + 1 normal UA as a finisher, then drain life to refresh the UA, only after you've completed the UA stacked and refresh UA once, pop curse of fragility,soul harvest and reap souls then drain spam to refresh UA.

Basically what I'm trying to achieve is condensing the long duration of several soulburn UA into a shorter super dot using a normal UA at the end to shorten the duration which should yield much stronger ticks , and given rot and decay refreshing dots from drains should stop the problem of UAs falling off, so you can typically reach infinite damage as long as you keep refreshing and stacking ( although it will never happen in pvp but SB;UA x3 +UA should be enough), added the soul harvest and reap souls , UA ticks should be astronomically high ( maybe around 1M crit ticks ? ).

Can anyone test this plz ?

[Vankhorne]

I want someone with beta access to test something for me using affliction, it's pretty much theory-crafting at this point but I believe we can achieve insane amount of sustained damage with affliction.

If anyone wants to try this out plz pick the following talents: contagion,soul harvest, soul conduit ( rest is optional) and in the pvp talents plz pick: mind quickness, curse of fragility, soulburn , rot and decay ( rest is optional ).

Now what I want to test is, build 5 shards and do this rotation on a player plz :

Soulburn -> UA -> soulburn -> UA ( you should have 1 shard left if no soul conduit proc ), UA. (IF soul conduit procs 1 shard, add SB: UA and drain life to sustain the UA until u get 1 more shard to cast a non SB;UA ).

the optimal rotation i want to try is, SB:UA x3 + 1 normal UA as a finisher, then drain life to refresh the UA, only after you've completed the UA stacked and refresh UA once, pop curse of fragility,soul harvest and reap souls then drain spam to refresh UA.

Basically what I'm trying to achieve is condensing the long duration of several soulburn UA into a shorter super dot using a normal UA at the end to shorten the duration which should yield much stronger ticks , and given rot and decay refreshing dots from drains should stop the problem of UAs falling off, so you can typically reach infinite damage as long as you keep refreshing and stacking ( although it will never happen in pvp but SB;UA x3 +UA should be enough), added the soul harvest and reap souls , UA ticks should be astronomically high ( maybe around 1M crit ticks ? ).

Can anyone test this plz ?

Rot and Decy can't be used that way. When it refreshes the duration, it also resets all the accumulated damage, and the UA behaves as if you have only 1 stack. Let's face it, would be OP as hell.

What we can test tough, and I wrote about in some youtube videos for some time now and no one tested, is simulate an Arena situation with 3 targets, or 2 targets + Soul Effigy, (any pet class would do), but 3 targets is ideal because we will be using Soul Conduit in Arenas. The perfect test subject is a BM Hunter, he has 2 permanent pets. Talents:


PvE talents: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ffliction/MVXM

Edit, actually, I think Grim. of Sac. would kill the test subject so fast it would invalidate the test. If this is such the case, remove it.

PvP talents: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-pvp...affliction/Jug

The empty Tiers are irrelevant for this test

Do the following:

1- Apply Agony and Corruption on all 3 targets, and keep them up with Drain Life

2- Use Drain Life to keep DoTs up (Rot and Decay), don't let the DoTs fall off.

3- Get 3 or 4 Reap Souls stacks (can kill critters around to stack it faster, can duel near Stormwind or Orgrimmar), activate it.

4- By activating Reap Soul, the proc chance on Compound Interest (C.I) is doubled

5- Get 5 stacks on C.I, pop Soul Harvest

6- Cast 1 Soulburn UA. I don't know if RoT and Decay resets the extra damage of C.I, so you could Drain Life or not.

7- Wait for a second time for 5 C.I stack. Cast a second Soulburn UA. Do NOT Drain Life after this.

8- Cast a normal, non Soulburn UA. All the accumulated damage in a 18 second DoT will be compressed in a 8 second DoT.


Come on, someone please test this!! Thank you.

[wholol]

Rot and Decy can't be used that way. When it refreshes the duration, it also resets all the accumulated damage, and the UA behaves as if you have only 1 stack. Let's face it, would be OP as hell.

What we can test tough, and I wrote about in some youtube videos for some time now and no one tested, is simulate an Arena situation with 3 targets, or 2 targets + Soul Effigy, (any pet class would do), but 3 targets is ideal because we will be using Soul Conduit in Arenas. The perfect test subject is a BM Hunter, he has 2 permanent pets. Talents:


PvE talents: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...ffliction/MVXM

Edit, actually, I think Grim. of Sac. would kill the test subject so fast it would invalidate the test. If this is such the case, remove it.

PvP talents: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-pvp...affliction/Jug

The empty Tiers are irrelevant for this test

Do the following:

1- Apply Agony and Corruption on all 3 targets, and keep them up with Drain Life

2- Use Drain Life to keep DoTs up (Rot and Decay), don't let the DoTs fall off.

3- Get 3 or 4 Reap Souls stacks (can kill critters around to stack it faster, can duel near Stormwind or Orgrimmar), activate it.

4- By activating Reap Soul, the proc chance on Compound Interest (C.I) is doubled

5- Get 5 stacks on C.I, pop Soul Harvest

6- Cast 1 Soulburn UA. I don't know if RoT and Decay resets the extra damage of C.I, so you could Drain Life or not.

7- Wait for a second time for 5 C.I stack. Cast a second Soulburn UA. Do NOT Drain Life after this.

8- Cast a normal, non Soulburn UA. All the accumulated damage in a 18 second DoT will be compressed in a 8 second DoT.


Come on, someone please test this!! Thank you.

I see, although even if we cant use rot and decay for my method, isn't a SB:UA x3 + UA a more efficient way of bursting rather than having to wait for compound interest ( and twice at that ) to pull off the intended burst phase, your method seems like something you will have a very hard time applying frequently, not to mention you're basically using 1 shard every once in a while so you're probably shard capped most of the time.

[Vankhorne]

The point of the method I proposed is to test the maximum potential damage with the max numbers of resources we can hold, 5 shards. If you don't wait for C.I to stack, then Soulburn would be pointless, and for the same 5 shards you would deal more damage by using Everlasting Affliction. Also, when you have Agony and Corruption on 3 targets, with Reap Souls active, Compound Interest stacks pretty fast to 5.

[Deleted]

Hitting for 1m damage is definitely going to be nerfed. And to be quite honest, I don't mind nerfed Implosion and TKC if it means they'll buff sustained damage a bit more. The spiky damage of Demo warlocks irks me so much.

Not sure they'll touch TKC actually, atm (implosion aside) it's just all sustained damage and very little burst. And TKC only hits strongly after you've built up enough demons. Think they need to up the damage of Hand of Guldan or something, aoe is lacking a bit

[Kirroth]

Think they need to up the damage of Hand of Guldan or something, aoe is lacking a bit

Demo's AoE damage is in the pets, where it belongs. The felguard's basic Legion Strike attack will be a full cleave instead of a meteor cleave. Its Felstorm will benefit from Demonic Empowerment and Mastery.* If you take GrimServ you've got a second felguard that does double damage with 28% uptime, plus your Summon Infernal on a 3m cooldown for serious AoE burst.

Ignore the spells. Demo's spells are just for summoning and supporting your demons. All the real action is from them.

*Does DE's 50% Haste buff mean Felstorm completes faster or hits more times? From the wording I suspect the latter, but someone in the Beta ought to test.

[Deleted]

GoServ still undertuned tho (or GoSup overtuned)

[Kirroth]

GoServ still undertuned tho (or GoSup overtuned)

Your point being?

Tuning has only just begun. Numbers are this point are pretty meaningless. But you can still see the shape of the intent of the design, and make reasonable suppositions about what the tuning will aim for.

Demo's AoE will come from pets. For regular burst AoE you'll take GoServ and double Felstorming felguards. For constant AoE you'll take GoSup and turn off the Infernal's threat aura. Both setups with benefit from Mastery via DemEmp, making them better than any buffs to HoG or Demonwrath would be.

[Deleted]

my point is that since damage distribution will kinda stay the same as it is now, your "pet aoe dmg" will be underwhelming compared to what demo has been in the past, where you had most of the damage coming from YOU.
Pet being crap unless you DE is the problem

[Kirroth]

my point is that since damage distribution will kinda stay the same as it is now

[Citation Needed]

Pet being crap unless you DE is the problem

Well, yes. Also, Destro damage is crap if you never cast Chaos Bolt. That's why doing so is the most basic of basics of the spec.

[wholol]

The point of the method I proposed is to test the maximum potential damage with the max numbers of resources we can hold, 5 shards. If you don't wait for C.I to stack, then Soulburn would be pointless, and for the same 5 shards you would deal more damage by using Everlasting Affliction. Also, when you have Agony and Corruption on 3 targets, with Reap Souls active, Compound Interest stacks pretty fast to 5.

The only issue I have with your method is that you are using soul reap to build compound interest ( and building soul reap stacks is very hard in arena due to lack of things to kill ), so you will have a very short soul reap and will end up not using it for burst phase.

Not to mention you need to drain life and keep that very buffed UA up until you have another 5 compound interest ( you wont have soul reap to stack it fast) so how long do you need to keep that single UA up for until you reach optimal levels.

As a closing gift I will give you a slight idea of why my method is superior to yours even at optimal levels :

Your method involves using 5 compound interest ( 50% dmg increase on UA ) , so let's use some very basic math while excluding all other passives/ damage increases and spell power.

Non buffed UA = 80k dmg / 8 secs.

soul burned UA = 180k dmg / 10 secs.

5 stacks compound interest UA = 180x1.5=270k dmg /10secs.

Now lets compute a bit, you want to get 5 stacked CI SB:UA twice and then finish off with a normal UA to compress.

(270x2)+80= 620 k dmg total damage ( no modifiers included).

My method involves stacking 3xSB:UA + 1 UA :

(180x3)+80 =620k total dmg ( no modifiers included).

As you can see both of our methods share the exact same outcome, the only difference is I'll be using soul reap right after applying the last normal UA to compress, while yours will be used to stack CI, meaning I have 1 cd ahead of you in terms of dmg, thus my method will deal more damage than yours and is more efficient / quick to pull off.

Edit: not to mention I will also benefit from some CI procs

[Vankhorne]

The only issue I have with your method is that you are using soul reap to build compound interest ( and building soul reap stacks is very hard in arena due to lack of things to kill ), so you will have a very short soul reap and will end up not using it for burst phase.

Not to mention you need to drain life and keep that very buffed UA up until you have another 5 compound interest ( you wont have soul reap to stack it fast) so how long do you need to keep that single UA up for until you reach optimal levels.

As a closing gift I will give you a slight idea of why my method is superior to yours even at optimal levels :

Your method involves using 5 compound interest ( 50% dmg increase on UA ) , so let's use some very basic math while excluding all other passives/ damage increases and spell power.

Non buffed UA = 80k dmg / 8 secs.

soul burned UA = 180k dmg / 10 secs.

5 stacks compound interest UA = 180x1.5=270k dmg /10secs.

Now lets compute a bit, you want to get 5 stacked CI SB:UA twice and then finish off with a normal UA to compress.

(270x2)+80= 620 k dmg total damage ( no modifiers included).

My method involves stacking 3xSB:UA + 1 UA :

(180x3)+80 =620k total dmg ( no modifiers included).

As you can see both of our methods share the exact same outcome, the only difference is I'll be using soul reap right after applying the last normal UA to compress, while yours will be used to stack CI, meaning I have 1 cd ahead of you in terms of dmg, thus my method will deal more damage than yours and is more efficient / quick to pull off.

Edit: not to mention I will also benefit from some CI procs

Except you did not truly grasp the purpose of what I proposed. It is to test different uses of the ability, and not a "my idea vs your idea, wich one is better?" Just to make it clear, Compound Interest is not 50% like you said, it is 75%. Also, you probably don't know that, even killing nothing, Reap Souls has a 4.5 PPM, wich means you get at least 4 stacks per minute or a 20 sec buff, wich is more than enough to gain fast C.I stacks and still do the damage. Also, we have a maximum of 5 shards and you can't assume a 6th one, because RNG may not help.

With that said, the normal use of Soulburn (2 shards = 18 sec DoT), the one you proposed, is a 25% DPS loss in comparison to Endless Affliction (2 shards = 24 sec DoT).

When we talk about resource efficiency, Soulburn is useful for only 2 things:

1- Stacking the damage on UA with less casts, at the expense of damage in comparison to End. Aff. This is how we can use the talent on basic levels. Or...

2- Dealing more damage than using Endless Affliction, but for this, you need Compound Interest, and Soulburn greatly increases its value, because you can use it with a 18 sec DoT instead of 12 sec one. This is the ONLY way to not make it a dps loss. I will use in-game durations instead of damage, and assume 5 shards.

Endless Affliction: 1 shard = 12 secs worth of damage. 2 shards = 24 sec. 5 shards = 60 seconds.

Soulburn without C.I: 2 shards = 18 secs worth of damage. 4 shards = 36 secs, now you add the final normal UA: 36 + 8 = 44 secs worth of damage and a damage loss of 16 secs worth of damage.

Now with with C.I: 18 x 1.75 = 31.5 secs
2 Soulburn UAs with C.I = 31.5 x 2 = 63 secs worth of damage for 4 shards. Now you add the final normal UA, without waiting for C.I: 63+8 = 71 secs.

So your idea, 5 shards = damage worth of 44 secs and a 25% DPS loss in comparison to Endless Affliction.
My idea, 5 shards = 71 secs worth of damage, a number approximately 61% bigger than yours.

[wholol]

Except you did not truly grasp the purpose of what I proposed. It is to test different uses of the ability, and not a "my idea vs your idea, wich one is better?" Just to make it clear, Compound Interest is not 50% like you said, it is 75%. Also, you probably don't know that, even killing nothing, Reap Souls has a 4.5 PPM, wich means you get at least 4 stacks per minute or a 20 sec buff, wich is more than enough to gain fast C.I stacks and still do the damage. Also, we have a maximum of 5 shards and you can't assume a 6th one, because RNG may not help.

With that said, the normal use of Soulburn (2 shards = 18 sec DoT), the one you proposed, is a 25% DPS loss in comparison to Endless Affliction (2 shards = 24 sec DoT).

When we talk about resource efficiency, Soulburn is useful for only 2 things:

1- Stacking the damage on UA with less casts, at the expense of damage in comparison to End. Aff. This is how we can use the talent on basic levels. Or...

2- Dealing more damage than using Endless Affliction, but for this, you need Compound Interest, and Soulburn greatly increases its value, because you can use it with a 18 sec DoT instead of 12 sec one. This is the ONLY way to not make it a dps loss. I will use in-game durations instead of damage, and assume 5 shards.

Endless Affliction: 1 shard = 12 secs worth of damage. 2 shards = 24 sec. 5 shards = 60 seconds.

Soulburn without C.I: 2 shards = 18 secs worth of damage. 4 shards = 36 secs, now you add the final normal UA: 36 + 8 = 44 secs worth of damage and a damage loss of 16 secs worth of damage.

Now with with C.I: 18 x 1.75 = 31.5 secs
2 Soulburn UAs with C.I = 31.5 x 2 = 63 secs worth of damage for 4 shards. Now you add the final normal UA, without waiting for C.I: 63+8 = 71 secs.

So your idea, 5 shards = damage worth of 44 secs and a 25% DPS loss in comparison to Endless Affliction.
My idea, 5 shards = 71 secs worth of damage, a number approximately 61% bigger than yours.

Ah yes 75% , don't know why I assumed 50.

But if we're limiting it to 5 shards might as well remove soul conduit entirely since we're no longer playing on RNG ( and CI is RNG as well ), both of our methods involves some form of RNG.

Assuming you do get the 2nd 5th stacks of CI fast enough to cast that second SB:UA, your method should deal more damage, but the real question is how effectively can you pull this off in actual pvp ?

Another thing to note is, using seconds instead of tick damage is misleading, since we're compressing dot durations I believe we should be talking about dot ticks instead:

Your method involves : 180x1.75= 315 , 315x2 =630, 630+80= 710 ( the end duration of your compacted dot is 8 secs, ticking at a rate of once per 2 secs, so it will tick 4 times ), 710 /4 = 177.5 k damage per tick.

My method involves the RNG of soul conduit , but for the sake of this conversation I will go with 5 shards ( basically gutting my damage), 180x2 =360,360+80= 440, 440/4 = 110k damage per tick ( 5 shard gimped version ), now let's also consider the fact that I will have at least 1 or 2 CI which should increase my result a bit towards: I will assume a 1 CI on my first SB: UA only, 180x1.15 =207, 207+180= 387, 387+80 = 467, 467/4 = 117 ~ k dmg per tick.

Now let's assume I am using soul reap during my UA stacking burst phase unlike your CI stacking phase, I am effectively buffing my entire UA damage by 10% , so thats 467 x1.1 = 513.7 , 513.7/4 = 128 ~ k dmg per tick( rounded ) and if you add the most important feature of soul reap , doubling artifact passives, I will more likely get a crit on at least one or two of those 4 ticks, where as your odds are much lower, since there is no real way to calculate RNG, I will simply consider a crit, let's calculate this:

Crit damage bonus is 10% ( 20 % with soul reap), so that is a 128 x 2.2= 281 K crit dot tick, so with 1 dot crit, 281 + (128x3) =665k total dmg, with 2 dot crits:
(281x2)+(128x2)=818k total dmg.

I am not even counting the extra passive doubling effects from artifact like shadowy incarnations etc, but overall my point is our damage outputs are almost the same depending on RNG, even at my 5 shards only it can out damage your fully buffed version depending on dot crits, which are more in my favor due to reap souls.

Also there is one flaw in your method that outweighs your entire argument, it is the fact that you have to wait for the 2nd stacks on CI while keeping the first SB:UA refreshed by draining life , a simple dispel on a 1 UA is not enough of a threat to a healer, if your first SB:UA is dispelled while u are waiting for your CI stacks you're pretty much done , while my method is quicker and stacks them consecutively thus less chances of a healer trying to dispel.