Concerning the Legion fantasy of the Order Halls

[Tijuana]

I was surprised that warriors get a mythological place in the sky, it seemed too "paladiny" for what I had in mind. Do warriors have that kind of Lore in the game already? From what I can google the halls are ruled by Odyn who is not explicitly a warrior but the concept of valhalla does sound warriory.

It fits nicely with the Northrend viking people, whatever they were called. I think warriors were upset that their order all is used art from a dungeon. However, I do agree that anything that looks that good, should belong to paladins.

[Archimtiros]

You can also say "Paladins are not angels. Why do they have priest elements?" or "Warlocks are not shadow priests. Why there is shadow elements" right?

I'm not sure the basis for this. Exactly what Shadow elements do Warlocks have, how are Priest elements angels, and where are they represented in Paladins or their class halls? I would not have said any of this, nor have I heard anyone do so.

I really do not get how it's not warrior thing/lore when you, as warrior, "fight a demonic pit lord, die and go to Valarjar where you are (sort of) reborn as more powerful warrior (with artifact)". This is a well known warrior thing. It's not even Warcraft thing. You have same thing in Skyrim. What are Vrykuls if not a vivid example of warriors?

• It's key to note that Vrykul are not all Warriors. They are a race which is comprised of many classes including Warriors, Hunters, Mages, Priests, and pseudo-shaman.
• You aren't reborn, the PC is saved from death (or rather deaths door, as you don't actually drop to 0 health), after a battle they have no business fighting to begin with.
• I'd also point out that "what is a Warrior thing" in other fantasy has little to no bearing on WoW, which is a completely separate fantasy, with it's own backstory, lore, reasoning and mechanics.

That last point is perhaps the most important, and a main basis of the argument; despite how Warrior-esque Valhalla may feel, it has no connection with player race Warriors, nor does it tie into the story that's been told for the last twenty some years of Warcraft history. This is the major failure, as they could have quite easily tied the two together; instead we (the PC) are simply thrust into a story completely separate from ours.

If you have beta access, play through the Warrior Hall introduction and then play through any other class hall intro and you'll notice an immediate difference in narrative. Every one of them focuses on bringing the members of the Alliance and Horde together to face a common enemy, very much a "coalition of the worlds forces" theme, which is exactly why you see so many pre-existing characters represented. Every one except Warriors, in which it is entirely focused on the Vrykul, without regard for the player factions or pre-existing characters, going so far as to say that no other player-race/living/Non-Vrykul is allowed into the HoV and that you are there as a sole exception, specifically because Odyn needs a living agent. It isn't out of recognition, it's a matter of necessity on his part.

Therein lies the problem; it makes a fine plot on it's own, but it should have just been a quest hub, as an extension of the Stormheim questline, which it essentially is anyway, because it has nothing to do with Warriors. Any other class would have just as easily fit in. Drop a Warrior into the Warlock class hall and the story simply doesn't work, but here you could be a Mage and the narrative wouldn't change one bit. Here you're simply an agent, no different from every other quest hub in the game, not a leader.

[Recke]

I really do not get how it's not warrior thing/lore when you, as warrior, "fight a demonic pit lord, die and go to Valarjar where you are (sort of) reborn as more powerful warrior (with artifact)".

To further drive the nail in and something that other players have mentioned multiple times, Class Order Halls are intended to be a gathering place for the classes to work amongst themselves to best fight the Legion. Naturally, it's not just player characters who make up these Halls, as each Class Hall (warriors omitted) has known or relevant characters of that class to further the lore. Warlocks have Jubeka, whom some players may be familiar with (and the Council of the Black Harvest from the Fel Fire quest in MoP). Paladins have so many named Paladin npcs that were out defending hubs/towns that it's not even funny. Paladins and Warlocks were used as an example based on your awkward quote. However, each class hall is filled with tons of class appropriate characters, including the myriad of player characters.

Meanwhile, Warriors are based upon being the most powerful champion while Odyn is able to strain his powers through the curse to receive. Any other player character Warrior is not canon and should never run into each other. Further, Skyhold has very few meaningful NPCs to help the warrior in question prepare to fight the Legion, mostly relying on a Titan Watcher who is already an ill repped character (something something turning your daughter into a being whose sole purpose is to do your bidding and that is the source of his misfortune). So, no warriors, no other players, no actual battle plan to fight Legion. This is one of the biggest problems people are having with the Skyhold.

[Katchii]

You can also say "Paladins are not angels. Why do they have priest elements?" or "Warlocks are not shadow priests. Why there is shadow elements" right?

I really do not get how it's not warrior thing/lore when you, as warrior, "fight a demonic pit lord, die and go to Valarjar where you are (sort of) reborn as more powerful warrior (with artifact)". This is a well known warrior thing. It's not even Warcraft thing. You have same thing in Skyrim. What are Vrykuls if not a vivid example of warriors?

Is this complainant for sake of complainant?



I was not saying it is equal. I was actually saying that what you say - they alter and add their own flavor to it.

I'm guessing the issue is that up until this point, Norse Mythology has not really had anything to do with Warrior lore so this whole Valhalla, Einherjar vibe just seems a little forced.

[Deleted]

Titan Watcher who is already an ill repped character

It doesn't help his case that all Titan watchers we've met so far have been powerful yes, but kinda flawed and incompetent, almost by design or lack thereof. Can't we maybe just kick his dumb robot ass off that place (Sparta style) and hijack the skycastle to do his one job ourselves, together with our mortal warrior buddies.
The more I hear Odyn in videos, the more irritating his pompous voice becomes.

[Archimtiros]

The more I hear Odyn in videos, the more irritating his pompous voice becomes.

The Vrykul voices are infinitely worse. This class hall will probably be the first time I legitimately feel the need to turn off sound.

[ryudaraku]

Well, part of my point was the silver lining. Warriors now effectively didn't get a class hall, just a bonus quest hub, but maybe we dodged the bullet here i.e. Blizzard actually shoehorning the class into Halls of Valor proper - henceforth warriors are all about Odyn. Odyn in your pants, in your mouth and all over your face. In every expansion to come.

Example being combat rogues. You are now a pirate(?!). Welcome!

Combat Rogues being Pirates has been..quite a longtime thing in lore. Most of the Major "Pirates" in lore seem to be speced Combat anyways. Though TBH I would have named it Swashbuckler.

[Murlocbait]

Combat Rogues being Pirates has been..quite a longtime thing in lore. Most of the Major "Pirates" in lore seem to be speced Combat anyways. Though TBH I would have named it Swashbuckler.

Pirates being combat rogues is NOT the same thing as combat rogues being pirates. Not that i have a horse in that race - don't really play my rogue much, just wanted to point on the flaw in that logic. Whether the change will be good for rogues longterm, who knows? Part of me wishes they had taken Arms warriors back to the drawing board to redefine what the spec was all about and really emphasize a new fantasy in Legion. Then i look at what they've done with Arms lately, and am thankful that they didn't do that. Competent devs could've made something new and refreshing with Arms this expac - sadly, they don't seem to have those at Blizz (at least when it comes to warrior design).

[Archimtiros]

Example being combat rogues. You are now a pirate(?!). Welcome!

If it'd been named Swashbuckler there would have been a bigger argument for it, but I don't think Outlaw is solely pirate centered either. Though pirates definitely fall into that category, and the inspirations are obvious, I still think it speaks to a number of other fantasies as well.

Moreover, I don't think that Rogues explicitly lost anything by changing Combat to Outlaw. While no doubt a popular spec, Combat wasn't exactly a strong identity for Rogues to begin with, and it's an iffy comparison to Warriors. Ours is an issue of the entire classes identity being ignored in favor of Vrykul, while our specs are relatively untouched, whereas Rogues overall class theme is kept reasonably intact in Legion.

[MORGATH99]

warriors order hall looks like a paladin bath house to me

[ryudaraku]

Pirates being combat rogues is NOT the same thing as combat rogues being pirates. Not that i have a horse in that race - don't really play my rogue much, just wanted to point on the flaw in that logic.

No, but Combat = Pirates is a path they have been going down for a long time so there is logic to where they are going, and really most of the spec is not particularly tied to just Piracy. Many of the talents are but there are also penty of talents that are not pirate themed.. The Only real thing within the spec* that is really "priatey" is Roll the Bones, but the Swashbuckler as an archtype is often a gambler anyways.

*One could make an argument for the pistol shot being a pirate thing, but I recall the Musketeers using Pistols outside of Duels at least once in the books.

As for Arms..I think it is close, however I would probably remove rage as a mechanic for Arms and think about a more thematic way for the spec to build and spend resources, since Arms seems to have the flavor of a Blademaster, with big focused strikes and "RAAAAGEEE" is just not quite the way I would get that across as a resource.

[Deleted]

I don't like how are they trying make fury into "raging rawr berserker" smashing everything with his giant swords...
That is just awful way to get yourself killed...



They could made fury in to Mountain King. We have the basic stuff for that: Dual wield (our artifacts could have been axe and hammer of Muradin not that awful "swords", Avatar, Thunder Clap, Storm Bolt... They completly redone Survival Hunter and Combat Rogue... All it would take to do that would be just to give a damn about warriors and our fantasy... I would rather have long established fantasy (Blademaster, Mountain King) than this Raging Berserker Vrykul crap...

[Deleted]

"13 and 14 year old boys" Target audience.

The trouble with Blademaster and Mountain King in my eyes is the same as naming and theming combat rogues as 'Outlaws'. It starts to get too specific, goes beyond just the spec's chosen weapon(s) and general fighting style and starts implying a certain racial culture (orcs and dwarves respectively), lifestyle, means of earning their copper and so on.

[OreoLover]

.

...

What if the Lore went into more of a naturally-derived, Titan-imbued strength, that is wielded through Furious emotion?

For me, this would be an adequate source of theme/power, but might be hard to relate back to "wildly brutal and relentless."

Shamans take much of their inspiration from nature (elements), Druids from nature (mostly plants), Hunters from nature (mostly animals).

From the class preview for Warriors (Fury): "Brute force becomes a breathtaking display when fury warriors relentlessly dive into the fray." + "Fury is a thematically grandiose take on the classic warrior archetype, and in Legion we want the gameplay to convey this better. "

From the class preview for Hunters (Survival): "While all hunters feel a calling to the wild, some serve as a reflection of its brutality. To them, the hunt is defined by unrelenting ferocity, where survival means facing one’s enemy eye-to-eye... and is always accompanied by merciless bloodshed."

Now, Survival Hunters are themed after brutality in nature. That wouldn't seem to leave a whole lot of room for Warriors.

However, Titans and Old Gods are still there, as with the class preview for Shadow Priests: "Like all priests, they dedicate much of their lives to worship—but they derive their power from the Void, straying dangerously close to the domain of the Old Gods."

So, perhaps the Old God Curse of Flesh could tie into the power from fury, or fighting that curse by reinforcing strength granted by the Titans (such as with Avatar). Fighting the Curse by sacrificing rationale (going berserk), self-sacrificing body (suffer from the Curse) could yield power similar to their Titan-linked past.

I had fun thinking about it.

[Toppy]

So long as we're stuck with this crap. We need a unique mount to at least make us feel badass.

I suggest this: the mount throne, held up by either Vrykul or Iron Dwarves. At least then we'll know we're the leader rather than a follow-along.

[ryudaraku]

I don't like how are they trying make fury into "raging rawr berserker" smashing everything with his giant swords...
That is just awful way to get yourself killed...

Sure Berserkers are not a good way to fight in real life, but it already has a very long tradition of being a thematic part of Fantasy settings, the most famous one going back almost an entire century, Complaining about the Fantasy of Fury being "RWAR SMASH" is sort of like complaining about..Dwarves being generally uptight and having beards.

[Ripitgood]

Well I dispute the idea that flashy spells are needed to identify the class, as well as dispute the notion that Warriors don't have any flashy spells to begin with. While they might not necessarily be mystical, abilities like Heroic Leap, Storm Bolt, Avatar, etc, are very identifiable. The only major complaint against Warrior spells is that they didn't really change much over the years, while casters got new animations with each new ability they gained.

Regardless, they could have done a lot with Warriors in Legion that wasn't tied to Vrykul, and strictly speaking there's nothing wrong with bringing Vrykul into the fold. I'd happily be on board if the theme wasn't entirely and exclusively centered around them. See my thread here.



Specifically WRT this, I believe the best option for Warriors and to tie in the Vrykul would have been to make use of an ancient Vrykul fortress. Not a quaint, out of the way garrison such as WoD, but an actual place of War, on the front lines, directly blocking the Legions main assault in the Broken Isles. Think D3 Bastions Keep in WoW, or even the WoD Dark Portal event with a fortress behind it.

This would have allowed the opportunity to tie in Vrykul lore, even characters such as Odyn and his Val'kyr, raising fallen warriors on the battlefield, and would have had plenty of "roleplaying opportunities" by throwing player races and Vrykul side-by-side, smithing weapons, training soldiers, maintaining siege weaponry, and running out the gates to face the onslaught. Tie in the Vrykul by making them important to the battles; they're big, they're strong, like Tauren on steroids, they're both shock troops and able to teach the "young races" of the Alliance/Horde new battle tactics handed down to them throughout the ages. Put an ancient Vrykul forge in the catacombs beneath for tuning the artifact weapon (and by association giving an extra reason to maintain the fortress there in the face of demonic onslaught, since you need that forge), and a map room for the Alliance/Horde/Vrykul leaders to make battle plans, and you hit all the major Warrior themes in one go.

Biggest difference would be in the atmosphere. Valhalla is out of the way; despite being a place for Warriors, there's no sense of urgency or imminent-battle due to the Legion invasion. Every other class hall has its characters doing something. Hunters are sparring and training, Demon Hunters are raising an army, Death Knights are teaching new initiates, Mages are researching spells... but the Vrykul are just hanging out, having a party. Don't get me wrong, the great "mead hall in the sky" is a fun theme, but it has dick all to do with Legion, when everyone is supposed to be preparing for a giant, world-ending invasion. It's a glorified rest stop.

With a fortress on the front lines, the constant fighting introduces a sense of urgency not present in other class halls. While other classes are off researching a "master plan", Warriors are at the forefront, the major line of defense holding the Legion at bay. To me, this more than anything reinforces the concept that Warriors wage War. They make up the bulk of every army and have been the major combatants of every battle fought throughout history, and while they may not be as individually flashy as Mages, they're every bit as important.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Warrior theme.

Archimtiros, I'd like to say first, I'm late to the party. Second, I love you dude, you have been doing the work of learning a Warrior for me for years. Much love. Now, onto Devils Advocate.

While I really enjoy the picture you painted of a Vrykul Fortress on the Front Lines, Warriors from every Race and Faction just throwing themselves at the Legion, bodies, mind, all their strength, just thrown wildly and with reckless abandon. To defend our foot hold, and to pimp-ourweps.

However, Valhalla (While not specifically focused on in WoW) is the "norm" idea for Warriors. Other classes want to live, Warriors want to find someone so skilled - to fight - but still to die in glorious combat. And our reward is Valhalla. While I concur it's a little off, I can see the picture Devs wanted to paint. I just think maybe the missed the mark a little.

Our ability to sorta "drop" in to Legion Areas, and "Jump" to Valhalla is sort of showing of the Bi-Frost with Thor/Asgard. I know and concede it's not the same, and it's a bit of a stretch.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is they could HAVE absolutely done better. And they damn well should, Considering warriors aren't normally on the receiving end of loads of changes, abilities, etc (Which some of us love about them, but still not a load of visuals #fury?). But they didn't completely miss right?

[Deleted]

The lore could have been like this:

-We, the warriors, are battle hardened heroes, choosen to lead an army against the Legion. We are allways in the frey of battle, know how to do the tactics against our enemy etc.
-We get to be Generals of combined army of alliance and horde (other classes with class halls included in that army). This would make us SIGNIFICANT and we would feel way more powerfull than to be some underdog for Odyn
-We would need a safe ground against the Legion. And there is no better place on Broken Isles than Black Rook Hold
-Our campagin would consist of rallying great warriors of alliance and horde (Muradin, Trollbane, Baine Bloodhoof, Lor'themar... you got the idea)

[Murlocbait]

However, Valhalla (While not specifically focused on in WoW) is the "norm" idea for Warriors. Other classes want to live, Warriors want to find someone so skilled - to fight - but still to die in glorious combat. And our reward is Valhalla. While I concur it's a little off, I can see the picture Devs wanted to paint. I just think maybe the missed the mark a little.

But that's never been WoW Warrior lore. Sure, there is some part of a warrior who probably wants to die in glorious battle rather than be thrown from a horse and crushed to death, but the concept of Valhalla is 100% new to WoW in this expansion. But, that's not really my biggest complaint. The greater sin, is that they only applied it to Vrykul. They could've introduced this idea, with Odyn, and introduced a new "afterlife" for the great warriors of Warcraft lore. Sure it would've been new to the expac, but they could've tied it into established lore and made the whole thing feel authentic as something new for warriors within the setting.

They failed to do that on every level. It's Vrykul heaven, NOT warrior heaven. There are no other non-Vrykul warriors there. No legends from the past. No leaders or ancestors to welcome us and prepare us for battle. It is NOT Valhalla - it's not even WoW Valhalla (and that's what a lot of people don't seem to understand). It's Vrykul heaven.

[Deleted]

But that's never been WoW Warrior lore. Sure, there is some part of a warrior who probably wants to die in glorious battle rather than be thrown from a horse and crushed to death

After Azeroth is saved, I'd like to retire actually. To a small cottage with a turnip patch.