[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Shadowferal]

So can we punch the writer who thought this was a good idea?

As long as you include the higher-ups that approved of it to begin with.

Tom Brevoort comes to mind.

[Immitis]

It's because of how they carried it out, so yeah...it's very different.

how?

cosmic cube changes caps history

peters mind is made to think hes doc ock (though at the time we were led to believe peter died in an old mans body and doc just fucking got off scott free)

both are pulling the rug out from under people, both got people freaking out the same way (although way worse with peter, with people physically trying to assault people over it)

both were said to be a "no take backsies" type of change. we were told peter was dead, dead dead. and that docs mind was in his body and that was how it was going to stay because its still peters body.

you say its a clickbait comic, so was doc stealing peters body. they were both clickbaity

you use the glenn example but thats EXACTLY what happened with spider-man "peters totally dead you guys, hes never coming back" 1 year later "oh just kidding, in a month peters coming back some how"

they straight up lied to people about it and it was always planned to be a 1 year thing but they told people it was going to be permanent.

theyre doing the EXACT SAME THING HERE. "this is cap now, this is permanent, blah blah blah"

i wouldnt even be surprised if they used the exact same plot device of caps personality being SO STRONK that he starts to bleed through despite the cosmic cubes interference, that nomatter what magic or power is used CAPTAIN AMERICA IS CAPTAIN AMERICA and he begins to break through.

just like how peters personality kept bleeding through docs conditioning and he had to keep reconditioning his mind to keep peters personality down in his subconscious until he finally realized only peter could beat goblin and carry this mantel, not him.

like this article speculates, i wouldnt be surprised if this storyline ended with cap picking back up his shield and being the only captain again.

"Guys, Captain America Is Going To Be Okay

Spoilers for Steve Rogers: Captain America #1 follow.

This week a new Captain America comic, Steve Rogers: Captain America #1, hit the stands. It's the latest chapter in the saga of ol' Cap, who up until recently had become a very old man and handed off the name and shield of Captain America to his pal The Falcon. Recent events had, in comic book fashion, de-aged Steve Rogers, and he's back in his fighting prime. Falcon is still Cap (with the original round shield) but now Steve is ALSO Captain America (this is a very modern conceit - we have two Spider-Mans and two Wally Wests running around congruently in comics these days). The first issue of the comic is pretty standard Captain America stuff - Cap is stopping a Hydra bomb on a train but while he can save the passengers he can't stop the bomber from blowing himself up. For Steve that's a failure. Meanwhile, the book is flashing back to his childhood in the 20s; recent comics have revealed that he had an abusive dad and the flashbacks deal with that. But they also reveal that Steve's mom met a mysterious woman who beat up her abusive husband and started talking to her about larger social issues.

There's a second flashback, telling the story of the suicide bomber Steve can't save. He's a troubled guy who falls in with a nativist group whose rhetoric sounds an awful lot like Donald Trump's... and who is led by the Red Skull. The book establishes that both the Skull and Baron Zemo are battling for the future of Hydra, with Zemo seeming more super villainy and the Skull giving speeches against immigrants and refugees and organizing suicide bombings. All of this leads up to an action sequence where Steve is chasing Zemo and trying to free a kidnapped scientist (Dr. Erik Selvig, because man are the movies ever leading the horse these days). A goofy sidekick, Jack Flag, a character introduced during one of Cap's odder runs in the 90s (this was about the time when Cap became a werewolf. Seriously), comes to help, but find himself in real trouble. See, Cap didn't want Jack Flag there. He didn't want Jack Flag to see a secret thing. And so Cap throws Jack Flag out of an airplane, turns to Dr. Selvig and says "Hail Hydra." And if that's not enough, the flashbacks reveal that the woman talking to Steve's mom was recruiting her for Hydra way back in 1926.

Captain America: Agent of Hydra? What the heck! An outrage, I tell you! It's madness!

That's how the internet reacted - first to the leaked spoiler of the ending and then to the actual comic itself. Maybe you reacted that way. How dare Marvel make Cap an agent of Hydra, you may have cried out. I'm here to tell you it's going to be okay. Not only is it going to be okay, this story will eventually reinforce everything that you like about Captain America.

Let me explain: superhero comics only have the illusion of change. Creators - in this case Nick Spencer and Jesus Saiz - can kind of do what they want on a book until they leave it. When they leave the book the pieces generally need to be put back - the toys need to be put away - so that the next team can play with them as well. It's the standard, and while there is incremental change - sometimes stuff sticks, like the resurrection of Bucky - generally everything goes back to the status quo. This is why I have taken to approaching superhero comics as anthologies; when a good creator comes on, so do I. When they leave, I give the new team an issue or two and if I don't like what they're doing, I jump off. I'll jump back on when another team picks it up.

I think this is okay! It's the nature of the beast. If this nature doesn't agree with you, superhero comics aren't for you. Me, I like the resets and the new takes and the incremental changes; I like the feeling that a character is both the same as when they started but also the result of dozens of creative hands leaving their small marks. It's one of the fun things about the genre for me.

All of that is to say that Captain America won't stay Hydra. There is literally no chance. If DC Comics walked back Green Lantern Hal Jordan murdering the entire Green Lantern Corps it's fucking child's play to walk back Steve Rogers saying 'Hail Hydra' (and even kicking a D list superhero out of a plane). In fact I would say that the main premise of this story is to see how they get out of it, just as it was when Superman or Cap himself died in the past. The initial event/reveal isn't the story - it's dealing with it that's the story. Every single time. This is how serialized superhero fiction works.

Take for instance a recent Spider-Man plot: Doc Ock and Spider-Man switched bodies and then Doc Ock, with Peter Parker's mind in his head, died. Doc Ock was now Spider-Man. People FLIPPED OUT. The story unfolded for about a year, and it turned out to be one of the great modern Spider-Man tales. Ock slowly discovered that with great power comes great responsibility. Peter came back to life, rededicated to his crusade. A lot of stuff happened in the interim - Ock actually fixed Peter's life - that continues to have impacts today, but in the end it all served one purpose: telling a great story that reinforced how cool Spider-Man is. I love that story, and I'll tell you a secret - I had quit the Spider-Man titles before that, but the promise of the big event brought me back. I'm still reading them now.

There's one other major thing to consider about this Cap storyline: this year is Captain America's 75th anniversary. If you think Marvel is going to celebrate that milestone by turning the superhero who just broke a billion dollars at the box office into a racist hatemonger... well, I guess there's just nothing you won't believe. The reality is that this story - which will showcase Hydra Cap as a way of reminding us why we love Cap in the first place - will end with some kind of triumphant return to the status quo. Possibly even with Steve Rogers as the one solo Captain America and The Falcon returning to his old duds, if I had to guess.

How will they get out of this corner? I don't know, and I'll be reading to find out, but I would guess that the repeated mentions of a sentient Cosmic Cube - you know it as the Tesseract in the MCU - are no accident. Cosmic Cubes have the abillity to alter reality, perhaps even alter the past. You know, change history so that Steve Rogers' mom joined Hydra back in the 20s. That's just me spitballing, but I'll keep reading to see where the story goes. You should probably wait until the story ends to freak out."

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/05/...ing-to-be-okay


maybe the comic will be utter shit and it ends up being a really shitty book where marvel tried to do something different with cap on his anniversary. im not saying its going to be as good as superior spider-man was.

but imo marvel has been doing really well lately in the comics. weve gotten some of the coolest stuff and alot of it being new and weve seen characters that had been stagnating getting fresh coats of paint and doing really well not only sales wise but critically as well.

so im willing to wait and see beyond one panel of cap saying hail hydra before officially announcing a story i know nothing about is utter shit.

[Shadowferal]

Feh...new shit is still shit...

Like that's any news....*shrugs*

[Svifnymr]

if a sentient cosmic cube changed caps history i dont see how thats much different than doc ock imprinting his personality on peters mind.

I think the central problem with him historically being a Hydra agent is that there are billions of times throughout his history that would have been better chances to reveal his allegiance rather than waiting for this moment. They can come up with whatever half baked story they want to cover it later, but it's still a big retcon for what's most likely a single story.

[minkage]

So purely because Cap has become popular via movies people are outraged about some silly comic story ?

This happens constantly to every hero. Its not a new thing and it wont last. I guess all this outrage is coming from movie fans and not actual comic book fans because seriously this shit happens all the time in comics.

[Ebalina]

Hail Hydra.

Tbh i'm kinda tired of the good guys always winning.

I want a universe where hydra conquered all.

[Gallahadd]

If Cappy has been a HYDRA double agent the whole time...

How was he able to pick up Mjolnir. Something only a worth individual can do?

[Kellorion]

He isnt a nazi, instead it will be revealed he is a commie-nazi.

[Chrysia]

So purely because Cap has become popular via movies people are outraged about some silly comic story ?

This happens constantly to every hero. Its not a new thing and it wont last. I guess all this outrage is coming from movie fans and not actual comic book fans because seriously this shit happens all the time in comics.

Yeah, no. Captain America being a secret Hydra agent is orders of magnitude more retarded than other twists in the past. It's literally the antithesis of every action Captain America has taken to date.

[Immitis]

If Cappy has been a HYDRA double agent the whole time...

How was he able to pick up Mjolnir. Something only a worth individual can do?

who says cap picked up mjolnir? if a cosmic cube changed his personal history nothing cap ever did might not CURRENTLY be canon.

OR they could say caps true history and personality bled through during all those times.

because theres no way there going to have made him hydra since the 60s. im 99.9% sure his history has simply been rewritten by a cube

[minkage]

Yeah, no. Captain America being a secret Hydra agent is orders of magnitude more retarded than other twists in the past. It's literally the antithesis of every action Captain America has taken to date.

Yes and it can be explained away by a million different reasons. Welcome to comic books! Heck maybe it's a clone named Ben Reilly and we will get captain scarlet shield for a month or too.

Considering the staggering amount of times characters like cap, supes and spidey have died, been bad guys, aged/de-aged, revised and reset back to basics it's just silly 1 panel from 1 comic that hasn't even began to tell its story has gained this epic level of internet rage.

Again it's due to the characters popularity in movies and nothing else.

[Trassk]

If Cappy has been a HYDRA double agent the whole time...

How was he able to pick up Mjolnir. Something only a worth individual can do?

Need to also remember, captain america was created by two jewish writers, who wanted to make a symbol against the third reigh.

Wonder what jack kirby and joe simon would think to this now, rolling in their graves probably.

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who says cap picked up mjolnir? if a cosmic cube changed his personal history nothing cap ever did might not CURRENTLY be canon.

OR they could say caps true history and personality bled through during all those times.

because theres no way there going to have made him hydra since the 60s. im 99.9% sure his history has simply been rewritten by a cube

Or rewritten by hack writers who want to be remembered by hype.

[Immitis]

I think the central problem with him historically being a Hydra agent is that there are billions of times throughout his history that would have been better chances to reveal his allegiance rather than waiting for this moment. They can come up with whatever half baked story they want to cover it later, but it's still a big retcon for what's most likely a single story.

thats my point, the reveal itself IS a retcon, canonically.

a sentient cosmic cube changed his history.

all that stuff cap did? that was still cap. his timeline has simply been changed. and will get changed back at some point.

i personally believe this story is going to end with caps pure willpower, his main true ability, the ability for him to hold on and keep going nomatter what, will be so strong that not even a cosmic cube can keep steve rogers down. he'll break the laws of time and space to restore the prime timeline

- - - Updated - - -

Need to also remember, captain america was created by two jewish writers, who wanted to make a symbol against the third reigh.

Wonder what jack kirby and joe simon would think to this now, rolling in their graves probably.

- - - Updated - - -



Or rewritten by hack writers who want to be remembered by hype.

"There's one other major thing to consider about this Cap storyline: this year is Captain America's 75th anniversary. If you think Marvel is going to celebrate that milestone by turning the superhero who just broke a billion dollars at the box office into a racist hatemonger... well, I guess there's just nothing you won't believe."

[Trassk]

So can we punch the writer who thought this was a good idea?

the writer who wrote one more day never paid for his crime, this guy won't either.

[Immitis]

the writer who wrote one more day never paid for his crime, this guy won't either.

one more day was marvel specifically trying to kill the spider marriage, something theyve consistently done in their urgency to try and keep peter parker young.

joe quesada is vehemently against a married spider-man.

this is nothing like one more day. one more day was marvel forcing a writer to shove a plot in to kill a character arc they didnt like.

this is a story that will have a beginning a middle and an end just like superior spider-man.

whether that story will be good is yet to be seen BECAUSE WEVE ONLY HAD 1 FUCKING PANEL.

[Trassk]

one more day was marvel specifically trying to kill the spider marriage, something theyve consistently done in their urgency to try and keep peter parker young.

joe quesada is vehemently against a married spider-man.

this is nothing like one more day. one more day was marvel forcing a writer to shove a plot in to kill a character arc they didnt like.

this is a story that will have a beginning a middle and an end just like superior spider-man.

whether that story will be good is yet to be seen BECAUSE WEVE ONLY HAD 1 FUCKING PANEL.

We've also had the writer himself say this isn't a clone, or mind manipulation, or anything like that, but this is the cap, the one thats been the same character for 75 years.

When the writers gone out of his way to say "Yep, caps been hydra, a nazi organisation member, everything he hates, but really he's been part of it all these years" then its not just one panel suggesting, its the writer saying himself "This is what I wanted to fuck up, 75 years of a character you thought you knew but really not", while at the same time pissing on jack kirby and joe simons graves, all just so he can hype himself up.

In the end, this will be retconned, like so many other mistakes writers have made, but at this moment, people have a right to call this guy what he is.

[Anastacy]

Dr. Strange's success has me interested, more so than any other Marvel movie. I'm not a particular fan of the character, but I'm just curious how well they handle a character that can be so "out there" (surrealistic).

The "Inception" comparisons (based upon the first trailer) make sense but, really, classic Dr. Strange should have been the (is an?) inspiration for Inception.

[Immitis]

We've also had the writer himself say this isn't a clone, or mind manipulation, or anything like that, but this is the cap, the one thats been the same character for 75 years.

When the writers gone out of his way to say "Yep, caps been hydra, a nazi organisation member, everything he hates, but really he's been part of it all these years" then its not just one panel suggesting, its the writer saying himself "This is what I wanted to fuck up, 75 years of a character you thought you knew but really not", while at the same time pissing on jack kirby and joe simons graves, all just so he can hype himself up.

In the end, this will be retconned, like so many other mistakes writers have made, but at this moment, people have a right to call this guy what he is.

yeah, they also said that otto octavius was permanently going to be spider-man and peter parker was dead (except peter never even died in the first place, he simply had ottos personality imprinted on his mind)

or ultimate peter parker definitely being dead, except he came back and got a happily ever after riding into the sunset with mj and giving miles his web shooters (the ultimate fuck you to quesada for ruining the spider-marriage in 616)

they LIE, like ALL THE TIME.

and even then, if a sentient cosmic cube rewrote caps history then technically when you think about it theyre not lying, because rewriting time means its not a clone, or mind control, or a different person, its still steve.

- - - Updated - - -

we have no idea what this story is going to be about, other than one panel and the build up of sentient cosmic cubes changing time.

which means as far as we know, we dont know how this is gonna pan out, why it happened, or what steves history the past 75 years even is since everything has been changed.

this is ISSUE #1 this isnt some twist super secret ending to a movie series. this is THE BEGINNING. obviously steve isnt going to be a nazi anyone who believes that is honestly so fucking guilible that if they have any experience reading comics they should be ashamed of themselves.

we know this isnt going to stick, this is one story.

nowadays writers arent just writing never ending bullshit until they get sick and move on and let someone else take over.

thats why weve gotten #1 issues so many times this year.

a writing team comes on, does a story with a beginning, a middle and an end, then the series gets relaunched.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, no. Captain America being a secret Hydra agent is orders of magnitude more retarded than other twists in the past. It's literally the antithesis of every action Captain America has taken to date.

Yup.
I'm going over my old comics from the 70s right now...and I'm in awe with the combined lack of talents that seem to permeate comic books these days.

[Traveler Voltin]

Death to captain America.

Curse the new writers spitting on the legacy