[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[FenixAU]

There's another undocumented nerf.

They severely nerfed the formula (whatever it is) for agi>dodge. Used to have 22.3% dodge, now have 10.8%. You can get this info using /run print(GetDodgeChance())

Was rather noticeable in combination with the Defensive Spikes nerf.

[Delimit]

The interrupt cooldown is a welcome change. 20 second interrupts are pretty shitty when things don't line up with it properly.

So, Blade Turning. I can't see this staying without having it's numbers brought down. The amount of pain that it generates now is a little ridiculous. You end up swimming in pain and have more shear procs than you actually have the GCDs for. I understand why they needed to lower the parry values on Defensive Spikes, but I hate losing even more defensive #'s as a trade off for the new Blade Turning.

Fel Eruption is back to hitting nice and hard, though not nearly as hard as it used to be. I couldn't be bothered to test it in a group setting as long as that asinine talent change nonsense is in effect.

Sigil of Flames is still 30 seconds, just like it always was. I'm not sure why the wording changes.

Was rather noticeable in combination with the Defensive Spikes nerf.

I'm glad my anecdotal feelings from the dungeon I just did wasn't just in my mind. I was getting destroyed on packs that I used to have no issues with, but I thought that it was just my healer.

[Promdates]

Fel Eruption is back to hitting nice and hard, though not nearly as hard as it used to be. I couldn't be bothered to test it in a group setting as long as that asinine talent change nonsense is in effect.

Im. Aura still the better talent choice here it seems from numbers. Not to mention the uptime on the 30% movespeed. /shrug

Sigil of Flames is still 30 seconds, just like it always was. I'm not sure why the wording changes.

This is an odd change, and one that's only affecting this one ability. Either way, Etched still bugged and not reducing the CD on sigils right now.

[Orloth]

It's behind the curtain stuff. One of our Artifact Traits used to be to add a charge to Sigil of Flame, but Charge abilities and CD abilities actually use a different system under the hood. This is just them changing it back to the CD system, now that that Trait is no more. Probably broke some things in the process.

[Delimit]

Im. Aura still the better talent choice here it seems from numbers. Not to mention the uptime on the 30% movespeed. /shrug

It definitely is, but I don't think Immolation Aura will stay as strong as it currently is. I tried it out on the first boss in Violet Hold since I could teleport out and swap talents real quick, and an untalented Immolation Aura was still providing more damage then Fel Eruption.

[Deleted]

if someone finds a fix for the graphic bugs with metamorphosis let me know

[TipTopPoet]

I'm glad my anecdotal feelings from the dungeon I just did wasn't just in my mind. I was getting destroyed on packs that I used to have no issues with, but I thought that it was just my healer.

Lovely. I'm on the fence about what to tank on in Legion. Was leaning towards DH, and now I'm back up on that fence if this is the case. Stuck at work so can't test for myself. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

[diggorey]

I'm still leaning towards DH. Coming from BrM, I need a spam button like Shear, otherwise I feel like I'm doing it wrong.
I tried the new BrM yesterday and it feels...weird. Not as clunky as Guardian, but still weird, especially cause I've been maining Monk since MoP. Gonna try Prot Warrior next, we'll see how that goes.

[TipTopPoet]

I'm still leaning towards DH. Coming from BrM, I need a spam button like Shear, otherwise I feel like I'm doing it wrong.
I tried the new BrM yesterday and it feels...weird. Not as clunky as Guardian, but still weird, especially cause I've been maining Monk since MoP. Gonna try Prot Warrior next, we'll see how that goes.

I've been a DK since Wrath, and a BrM during SoO. Every build they nerf DK self healing, which is the appeal of the class for me. I'm currently on the fence between DK or DH. Will play around a bit more on Beta and then flip a coin when Legion comes out if I can't pick one.

[Manu9]

Okay, so nerfing Vengeance, but Vengeance is already squishy. But they nerfed AM which we were strong in, I'm hoping in return, they buff our Base mitigation, which I really think vengeance needs.

[Leadros]

i am sad that they are nerfing us like this. i am deciding between prot pala and veng DH as tank in legion, and right now, prot has way more reliable dmg reduction and still, veng gets nerfed.

if they buff our baseline surivability, it would be fine but right now i dont know why we are getting shafted like this.

[Deliverer]

Not sure what to think about blade turning change, I guess it would be nice to use when taking last resort. Maybe it is better for fights with a lot of movement cause fragments go out of range but on regular fights with talents like feed the demon, painbringer, fueled by pain all working with soul shards you still want to take fracture.

[Zabbs]

Okay, so nerfing Vengeance, but Vengeance is already squishy. But they nerfed AM which we were strong in, I'm hoping in return, they buff our Base mitigation, which I really think vengeance needs.

My assumption is that they are iterating towards this. An extra 10% over 3s is more in line with other tank artifact traits I have seen so far. Demon Hunter is too reliant on AM for auto attacks relatively at this point.

I like the change to Blade Turning. It actually changes my rotational priority. Shear also has more depth to me as a pain + soul generator the more I play the class. The talent seems to be more powerful than Felblade so far (even on single target). I can see this being nerfed. It also somewhat conflicts with Felblade. The talents are multiplicative and not additive. That is a problem with many talents in Vengence so far though.

I prefer that Fel Eruption not be the DPS option. I was never a fan of how Storm Bolt in the Warrior Talents ended up as the DPS option. The bonus damage on both Fel Eruption and Storm Bolt should be a way of not punishing the player for not knowing that an individual enemy could not be stunned. Plus by the nature of Imolation Aura having a lower cooldown, hitting multiple targets, and generating pain versus Fel Eruption having a higher CD, being single target, and costing pain; the Aura talent will be used in most boss progression situations because of how well it synergizes with a defensive rotation. This overall leaves Fel Eruption to appear somewhat lacking, but a stun is a stun and I will be than happy to add it to my kit when the need arises.

[Manu9]

My assumption is that they are iterating towards this. An extra 10% over 3s is more in line with other tank artifact traits I have seen so far. Demon Hunter is too reliant on AM for auto attacks relatively at this point.

I like the change to Blade Turning. It actually changes my rotational priority. Shear also has more depth to me as a pain + soul generator the more I play the class. The talent seems to be more powerful than Felblade so far (even on single target). I can see this being nerfed. It also somewhat conflicts with Felblade. The talents are multiplicative and not additive. That is a problem with many talents in Vengence so far though.

I prefer that Fel Eruption not be the DPS option. I was never a fan of how Storm Bolt in the Warrior Talents ended up as the DPS option. The bonus damage on both Fel Eruption and Storm Bolt should be a way of not punishing the player for not knowing that an individual enemy could not be stunned. Plus by the nature of Imolation Aura having a lower cooldown, hitting multiple targets, and generating pain versus Fel Eruption having a higher CD, being single target, and costing pain; the Aura talent will be used in most boss progression situations because of how well it synergizes with a defensive rotation. This overall leaves Fel Eruption to appear somewhat lacking, but a stun is a stun and I will be than happy to add it to my kit when the need arises.

Honestly what is really making me not fully enjoy DH tanking, is that I don't feel like I'm doing much to lessen my damage intake, I feel like it's a reactive tank instead of proactive one, which feels weird as a tank to me. Like I will take this big hit now, but I can't do much about it, I just let it hit me, and then heal up a bit. (Not to that extent, but you get my point)

I also see myself wanting to ask for stuns from my dps on packs.

[Deliverer]

I never had issues in dungeons at least I'm waiting for another raid test to judge but I think demon spikes is a very solid active mitigation. Iìm 828 ilvl with 26% mastery I'm already at 36% phys DR.

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Where are you struggling mostly?

[Manu9]

I never had issues in dungeons at least I'm waiting for another raid test to judge but I think demon spikes is a very solid active mitigation. Iìm 828 ilvl with 26% mastery I'm already at 36% phys DR.

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Where are you struggling mostly?

Well, I only tried 1 hc as a tank, VH, at 810.

[Zabbs]

Honestly what is really making me not fully enjoy DH tanking, is that I don't feel like I'm doing much to lessen my damage intake, I feel like it's a reactive tank instead of proactive one, which feels weird as a tank to me. Like I will take this big hit now, but I can't do much about it, I just let it hit me, and then heal up a bit. (Not to that extent, but you get my point)

I also see myself wanting to ask for stuns from my dps on packs.

Yeah, DTPS sims may not be all that helpful for this class if it stays as is. It appears to be even more reactive than DK! It certainly felt funny going from a Prot Warrior to this.

[Elamahpla]

the blade turning nerf needed to happen now rather than later anyway. good to see it happened now and not during a content patch. it would lead to being dh's being very, very strong as legion went on.

also does anyone have a fix for this damn meta bug/glitch?

[Deliverer]

the blade turning nerf needed to happen now rather than later anyway. good to see it happened now and not during a content patch. it would lead to being dh's being very, very strong as legion went on.

also does anyone have a fix for this damn meta bug/glitch?

Was it that strong? I imagine it was strong for aoe but not that good for ST?

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I'm sitting at 26% crit, 24% haste and 24% mastery on beta right now (829 Ilvl). I wonder what we should aim for, I guess 50% haste, 40% mastery and rest crit? 40% mastery seems already overkill.

After the change to defensive spikes I'm not sure I'll go for painbringer on live. Infernal force, defensive spikes and embrace the pain aren't that great tbh. I'll probably go fueled by pain first and then I either go to charred wardblades from there or from infernal force. Still waiting for them to fix devour souls.

[Elamahpla]

the scaling would have been strong, yes, that's why i said now as opposed to later where they may have thought it was something else. it's a good overall change, i feel. i was playing fracture anyway .