Do you think nuking Japan was a necessary evil?

[Collegeguy]

You know, except the actual facts that the Emperor faced an attempted coup due to his decision to surrender, the Japanese fleet had few escort and harassment units to begin with, and what few they had were decimated by wars end, and their destroyer fleet was cut in half and unsuitable for attacking a blockade, due to being easy targets., the Japanese Air Force was plagued with problems throughout the war, and by the end of the war had few aircraft in working condition, and US forces had long since learned to counter their few advantages, and the fact that Japanese military production had lagged behind the US in everything but subs for the entirety of the war, much of the capacity for which was being systematically destroyed by US Air raids.

I've done the research. The people supported the Emperor, and the military convinced the Emperor total war was the only option to cement his legacy. By the end of the war, the Emperor's resolve was already wavering. He needed a push. A naval blockade might have had the same effect as the bombs.

If you read more of my replies, say, from 2 pages ago, you'll note that I think that within the full context of the end of World War II, dropping the bombs was most likely necessary, but not to get Japan to surrender. We had other options for that, though none that would bring our forces home as swiftly. Dropping the bombs was at least as much to intimidate the Soviets as it was to push the Emperor into defying the military.

As you already said, it's not perfect. The naval blockade that might be something with same effect is somewhat flawed on anything that the US or even Japan would have wanted. Giving time for the Soviets to come in could have just as likely made Japan want to never surrender under combined terms or be divided up. Blockade is murky next to an assured, decisive one. Like you said, take out the soviets, and the bomb and blockade become a non-issue.

[Deleted]

and would have allowed the USSR to grab more territory than it already had.

And what ship will USSR use to assult "real" Japan? They did have land from the start on Sakhalin but did not invade the Japanes part of Sakhalin until Japan did surrenderd...

[Chrysia]

I'm sorry, but believing that the blockade is a better option than nukes implies that there are cases where it makes sense to show restraint in war against an enemy that's totally committed to destroying you, and that's something I'll never believe.

Holy shit did you even read what I wrote? I never said that a blockade was necessarily better than dropping the nukes. I simply said that it was likely not necessary under the strictest definition to drop the nukes in order to secure a Japanese surrender. We had options available to us that still would have preserved American lives.

I cut it out for brevity, but in response to your claim that Japan could have gone nuclear, they don't have enough native deposits that that is a likely scenario, even ignoring the fact we were bombing the shit out of their production facilities. They were getting most of their nuclear material from Germany, and we put a stop to that source.

[Deleted]

Google Operation Downfall. This has been discussed so often. The invasion would have probably caused more casualties on the US as well as the Japanese side so even though the nukes were an atrocities they most likely killed less people than the other alternative would have.

[Deleted]

During World War II, China, fighting Japan, lost approximately 8 million civilians due to "military activity and crimes against humanity", primarily fighting against Japan. Hiroshima and Nagasaki's causalties are a rounding error in the context of WW2. They're insignificant. There's no way Truman could have been horrified by the idea of killing 250,000 citizens; we'd just killed 400k in Germany bombing them to oblivion. It was war! And the bombs ended the war.[/COLOR]

So killing 8 million Chines civilians out of 517 million is a crimes against humanity that is 1,5% of the population. Bombing 0,4 million German civilians out of 69 million 0,5% is fair game? So do you have a magic number that say if you not kill more then X% of the population its not a crimes against humanity? or if you wining the war you are absolved from crimes against humanity and its only for loser?

we invaded Germany, freeing millions of citizens of occupied countries, and stopping the genocide of the Jewish people. It cost hundreds of thousands of lives

But you also prolong the war then Germans apparently did not want to continue the war and tyring to blow up Hitler and trying to make a peace....but the Allied did not want to play ball, think how meny life was saved if the coup succeeded in overthrow Hitler July 1944.

[Moon-Man]

America can only resort to nukes, otherwise they are weak.

Only pussies fights with nukes.

No matter, I do have fun laughing at America every now and then. As I laugh at them right now, for thinking Trump is that bad.

[Deleted]

Nope it wasn't a crime against humanity. It was justified military activity.

So the end justifies the means? Then you can justifie everything......

[Kellhound]

Again, it's qualities as an option are irrelevant, it was an option. It was a perfectly feasible solution given our superiority in both sea and air power. Even Japanese submarines had posed little risk to the US fleet since 1943, and the Japanese fuel supplies were dwindling.

If the validity doesn't matter, then we also had the option of just saying "Hey, we beat you enough, the war is over".

Yet the very cruiser that delivered the Hiroshima bomb to Tinian was SUNK with the loss of ~900 sailors by a submarine on 30 July 1945.

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And what ship will USSR use to assult "real" Japan? They did have land from the start on Sakhalin but did not invade the Japanes part of Sakhalin until Japan did surrenderd...

You forget the actions on the mainland.

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So the end justifies the means? Then you can justifie everything......

In victory, all is justified, in defeat, all is vilified. Welcome to History 101.....

[Deletedaccount1]

No one ever discusses the firebombings which were far worse and arguably much less effective. Brought to us by American legend Robert McNamara.

[Deleted]

You forget the actions on the mainland.

Hence I did use "real" Japan, but if the war did go on what more mainland can Russia take? Land from the Chinese?

In victory, all is justified, in defeat, all is vilified. Welcome to History 101.....

Unfortunately it is so true.

[Deleted]

All those yes'es just show how stupid people can be...

[Deletedaccount1]

Does anyone seriously want to live in a world where Soviets had influence in Japan and nuclear weapons became unused in combat until God knows when? The nukes were one of many shitty options. Such a pointless discussion.

And no America should not apologize. Virtually no one in the states likes the nukes and argues they should still be used in combat meanwhile every Sunday I hear these far right assholes in Tokyo on their loudspeaker trucks arguing to go to war with the world for the glory of the emperor. What a joke. None of you have a clue what you are talking about.

[Kellhound]

Hence I did use "real" Japan, but if the war did go on what more mainland can Russia take? Land from the Chinese?



Unfortunately it is so true.

Considering they already were advancing into China and Korea....

[Deleted]

And no America should not apologize. Virtually no one in the states likes the nukes and argues they should still be used in combat meanwhile every Sunday I hear these far right assholes in Tokyo on their loudspeaker trucks arguing to go to war with the world for the glory of the emperor. What a joke. None of you have a clue what you are talking about.

What the fuck has that got to do with anything?

[Deletedaccount1]

What the fuck has that got to do with anything?

Because clearly one country learned more than the other from that war.

[Deleted]

Because clearly one country learned more than the other from that war.

Don't be ridiculous, there are many crazed right-wing groups in the US. Not that either have any bearing on this at all.

You must be incredibly narcisstic to impose your totally unrelated empirical experience onto a tragic event like this.

[Deletedaccount1]

Don't be ridiculous, there are many crazed right-wing groups in the US. Not that either have any bearing on this at all.

You must be incredibly narcisstic to impose your totally unrelated empirical experience onto a tragic event like this.

Crazed right wingers hold a lot more power in Japan than the United States. The DPJ which has basically ruled Japanese politics since the end of the war and is composed largely of ultra-conservative and religious followers of the emperor on one side and neoconservatives on the other. They largely agree on one issue.

I'm not being narcissistic at all. We still treat our neighbors like shit over things that were entirely our fault and are basically recognized as historical facts. We still treat Okinawans like shit while trying to shift blame on that issue onto the United States.

You don't live here and you aren't from here. You don't know what it's like growing up in the Japanese educational system or working with Japanese adults on a daily basis. Most are taught a false narrative that blames every other country for Japan's problems before, during and after the war.

[Blackmist]

Vaporising 120k civilians was pretty brutal by anybody's standards, but who knows if it was needed? They could have surrendered regardless, they could have dragged the war out for years, developed their own bomb and nuked somebody else.

If nothing else it demonstrated the inevitable end result of global warfare, and the fact that we haven't been in that state since says a lot.

Apology not needed, because the people that made those decisions are long dead and I didn't notice Japan apologising either.

[Deleted]

You don't live here and you aren't from here. You don't know what it's like growing up in the Japanese educational system or working with Japanese adults on a daily basis. Most are taught a false narrative that blames every other country for Japan's problems before, during and after the war.

Look in the mirror.

[Macaquerie]

Look in the mirror.

I don't understand where you got this idea that the United States was the Big Evil during WW2. We didn't get involved to dominate the globe, we got involved because the Japanese dragged us into it, and our treatment of Japan during the occupation was incredibly lenient by any standard and does not compare in any way to how the Japanese treated civilians in territory that they occupied. I get it, modern Japanese people seem pretty non-threatening but casting them as the victims of the war is just completely wrong.