Does Bastion make you rage? I have some good news for you.

[Vurdah]

So tell me what the counterplay to a good Rein/McCree/Mercy core is.

Why is he picked this much while heroes like Reaper and Soldier 76 are almost never picked in competitive?

I'm genuinely curious.

Also him 1v1 a Roadhog with a single combo is absurd, and it can be done.

Junkrat Pharha and Lucio. Hell if you can get a bastion posted up to break RH shield it's game for RH/McCree/Mercy.

Since competitive isn't even a thing yet, idk where you guys are getting this info. Not to mention just because people stream on twitch does not make them experts on the game.

As far as Reaper and Soldier not being picked idk wtf you are talking about. Reaper rapes Mercy healer teams and Soldier is all around just a boss in the hands of a capable player.

If you land your hook, which you fucking should or you're just bad, you can kill him in one fucking shot. Hook out ranges his flashbang by a fucking mile.

[Endus]

So tell me what the counterplay to a good Rein/McCree/Mercy core is.

Just for starters, two Junkrats/Pharahs bombarding the Reinhardt's shield constantly until it breaks, from long enough range that McCree can't pick them off. And that's a 2v3 scenario.

Why is he picked this much while heroes like Reaper and Soldier 76 are almost never picked in competitive?

Because Reaper's biggest strength is backdooring, and surprising your enemy. Top-end players usually have strong enough situational awareness to shut that tactic down most of the time. Soldier 76 is a "generic" character, who's got less pewpew than most aggressive characters, but has his heals to back him up. You generally either don't need the extra heals, or you need a proper healer, there's little in-between for Soldier 76's specific layout. I imagine a coordinated Soldier 76/Symmetra combo could be pretty decent, if your entire team is coordinated enough to run to Soldier 76 for heals as needed. Less straight healing than a pure healer, but the existence of health packs and Symmetra's shields help offset that.

Also him 1v1 a Roadhog with a single combo is absurd, and it can be done.

Not really sure why it's "absurd"; I can 1v1 McCree with a single combo as Roadhog, too. It all comes down to whether he gets off his Flashbang before I get off my hook. With the advantage to Roadhog, because the hook's got greater range than the flashbang.

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The game just came out. What fucking tournaments are you referring to?

Oh and the game JUST CAME OUT. So people are still learning how to counter other heroes.

There were a couple unofficial tourney type things, like the Penny Arcade thing, but we're still talking about people who lucked into getting access to the open beta.

[Tojara]

McCree is pretty dumb. Is literally a counter to every other flanking hero in the game and eats any tank with his combo.

People here saying that he's only good at close or mid range haven't met decent ones who actually know how to aim either. Yes there are more effective long range options, but he's not exactly terrible at long range either. For example there are plenty of options to deal with Pharah in the air and 76 does a decent job at it, but several left clicks from McCree who actually has aim can do the same thing as well.

He's a little too good at everything and for whatever reason the game decides to be super generous with his ultimate in regards to refunding a shitload of it. Pretty bullshit that you can make the entire team LoS for 6 seconds during his ultimate, only to cancel it and get 50% of your charge back.

His kit is fine though and you can't change him that much. More damage drop off at longer ranges, a CD increase on his flash bang and not refunded his ultimate by an absurd amount of he cancels it would likely be fine.

[Cadlington]

his E>M2 does need nerfing, but how without making him suck? they could make the E a bit harder to hit, so it has to do more than just hit near the enemy, and reduce accuracy of M2, that might keep him viable while not making him suck

Make his Flashbang not work from behind. That shit doesn't make sense in the first place.

[willemh]

https://www.twitch.tv/esportsarena Watch this and give me a warning when you see a team not pick him.

I just needed to vent but the 'every hero is balanced and has counterplay!!' argument is dumb and going to hurt this game in the long run.

Just watched stillhere with 2x soldier and 0 mccrees.

[Vurdah]

Yeah mcree having and instant stun and insane burst is pretty broken and counters pretty much every tank and short ranged char in the game with it and takes barely any skill to use since the stun has an AOE and then they are not moving so you don't need to aim his M2.

The flashbang has an absurdly short range and area of effect. If you die to this he snuck up on you or you got to close to him.

[Awelon]

Does <insert flavor character of the month> make you rage? No longer, for <new flavor character of the month> is much more OP against everything! God I hate these threads.

[Vurdah]

Just for starters, two Junkrats/Pharahs bombarding the Reinhardt's shield constantly until it breaks, from long enough range that McCree can't pick them off. And that's a 2v3 scenario.



Because Reaper's biggest strength is backdooring, and surprising your enemy. Top-end players usually have strong enough situational awareness to shut that tactic down most of the time. Soldier 76 is a "generic" character, who's got less pewpew than most aggressive characters, but has his heals to back him up. You generally either don't need the extra heals, or you need a proper healer, there's little in-between for Soldier 76's specific layout. I imagine a coordinated Soldier 76/Symmetra combo could be pretty decent, if your entire team is coordinated enough to run to Soldier 76 for heals as needed. Less straight healing than a pure healer, but the existence of health packs and Symmetra's shields help offset that.



Not really sure why it's "absurd"; I can 1v1 McCree with a single combo as Roadhog, too. It all comes down to whether he gets off his Flashbang before I get off my hook. With the advantage to Roadhog, because the hook's got greater range than the flashbang.

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There were a couple unofficial tourney type things, like the Penny Arcade thing, but we're still talking about people who lucked into getting access to the open beta.

So a very limited sample size.

[BananaHandsB]

I eat bastions for breakfast.
-Genji

Side note: McCree is amazing. 10 sec CD stun that can cancel ultimates, shut down tracers and makes you pretty much unstoppable in close range; a right-click that can nuke just about anything down, including tanks and can be reloaded almost instantly via a roll; yet the ability to deal ranged damage extremely effectively as well; and an ult with the potential to wipe a team, or just get that one crucial kill; sitting at 200 HP he's not even on the low end for attacker hero HP. There really isn't much downside to McCree. You really miss it if you don't have one on your team. OP, idk, but he's definitely in the upper echelon of hero power.

[Vurdah]

If you get caught 1 on 1 in close range you are suppose to die to McCree.

This is where the disconnect appears to be. I'm not sure how to break it down any further.

You can't. People are trying to play this game like cod and when they get stuffed by a McCree or Genji they take to the forums and rage.

[Jinxz]

McCree? HA! let me introduce you to my friend widowmaker and hanzo McCree, they headshot you from across the map.

[Vurdah]

McCree is pretty dumb. Is literally a counter to every other flanking hero in the game and eats any tank with his combo.

People here saying that he's only good at close or mid range haven't met decent ones who actually know how to aim either. Yes there are more effective long range options, but he's not exactly terrible at long range either. For example there are plenty of options to deal with Pharah in the air and 76 does a decent job at it, but several left clicks from McCree who actually has aim can do the same thing as well.

He's a little too good at everything and for whatever reason the game decides to be super generous with his ultimate in regards to refunding a shitload of it. Pretty bullshit that you can make the entire team LoS for 6 seconds during his ultimate, only to cancel it and get 50% of your charge back.

His kit is fine though and you can't change him that much. More damage drop off at longer ranges, a CD increase on his flash bang and not refunded his ultimate by an absurd amount of he cancels it would likely be fine.

If you're getting picked off by a McCree at long range you're doing it wrong.

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Make his Flashbang not work from behind. That shit doesn't make sense in the first place.

Why? Decent players will just throw it past the target slightly and still get the stun.

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I eat bastions for breakfast.
-Genji

Side note: McCree is amazing. 10 sec CD stun that can cancel ultimates, shut down tracers and makes you pretty much unstoppable in close range; a right-click that can nuke just about anything down, including tanks and can be reloaded almost instantly via a roll; yet the ability to deal ranged damage extremely effectively as well; and an ult with the potential to wipe a team, or just get that one crucial kill; sitting at 200 HP he's not even on the low end for attacker hero HP. There really isn't much downside to McCree. You really miss it if you don't have one on your team. OP, idk, but he's definitely in the upper echelon of hero power.

Most CDs are about the same and some even more effective.

You can reload by rolling but outside of that his reload is a bit long and he only has 6 shots. Not to mention the stun only last a very short time so if you have Torb armor or McCree misses one or two shots from his FTH you can finish it. Hell if you have decent internet you can ghost the last few shots of his FTH with Reaper and finish him during his reload.

If you die to his ult you were either out in the open with no cover (bad play there champ, you know they have a McCree on the team) or you're just bad. When you hear "it's high noon" get behind something.

[BananaHandsB]

Why? Decent players will just throw it past the target slightly and still get the stun.

Not that I agree with the idea posed, but you answered your own question. Powerful abilities are best kept in check by skillcaps so their true effectiveness can generally only be realized by a skilled player and not just anyone who just picked that character for the first time. That's part of what makes games like this so fun, not just playing a character and being good or bad at it, but getting better and having abilities that allow for skill development.

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If you die to his ult you were either out in the open with no cover (bad play there champ, you know they have a McCree on the team) or you're just bad. When you hear "it's high noon" get behind something.

lol are you somehow generalizing McCree's ult into one anecdote. The key to using McCrees ult is to sneak up behind/flank, wrap around a corner last second, etc. If you're using it the way you described, then that's a bad McCree. Can't tell you how many multi-kills I get with it. It's a great ult. If you don't understand the power of it, you're not doing it right. Virtually every ult has a sound effect, that doesn't make it ineffective lol. You need to play him a bit more to get a hang of landing that ult. I've had months of beta exp tho but you'll get there, champ (rofl).

[Deleted]

McCree is definitely OP. I played a pretty competitive best 2/3 attack point game on the Greek map and got 37 eliminations, 4 deaths. I haven't played an FPS since Unreal Tournament was new, and I wasn't good at that either. Even if the damage was tweaked Fan the Hammer did 150 dmg or so?

[Vurdah]

Not that I agree with the idea posed, but you answered your own question. Powerful abilities are best kept in check by skillcaps so their true effectiveness can generally only be realized by a skilled player and not just anyone who just picked that character for the first time. That's part of what makes games like this so fun, not just playing a character and being good or bad at it, but getting better and having abilities that allow for skill development.

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lol are you somehow generalizing McCree's ult into one anecdote. The key to using McCrees ult is to sneak up behind or wrap around a corner last second. If you're using it the way you described, then that's a bad McCree. Can't tell you how many multi-kills I get with it. It's a great ult. If you don't understand the power of it, you're not doing it right. Virtually every ult has a sound effect, that doesn't make it ineffective lol. You need to play him a bit more to get a hang of landing that ult. I've had months of beta exp tho but you'll get there, champ (rofl).

If you hear him and don't see him in front of you then he is probably behind you so fuck MOVE. Not that hard.

[BananaHandsB]

If you hear him and don't see him in front of you then he is probably behind you so fuck MOVE. Not that hard.

What about to the left side champ?

[Vurdah]

McCree is definitely OP. I played a pretty competitive best 2/3 attack point game on the Greek map and got 37 eliminations, 4 deaths. I haven't played an FPS since Unreal Tournament was new, and I wasn't good at that either. Even if the damage was tweaked Fan the Hammer did 150 dmg or so?

Cool story but the enemy team's skill level is a big factor here. I've gotten 23 elims with Lucio and I am in no way amazing at this game. And that is pulling down a gold for elims on my team.

[Deleted]

Cool story but the enemy team's skill level is a big factor here. I've gotten 23 elims with Lucio and I am in no way amazing at this game. And that is pulling down a gold for elims on my team.

That's definitely true and it's by far and away my best game with him or any character, but it was a pretty competitive game and honestly I am horrible at Overwatch, I kept playing with the same guys after that on various heroes and got owned.

[Vurdah]

What about to the left side champ?

Positioning, positioning, positioning. Also have some fucking awareness and stop tunneling things right in front of you.

Not saying you can avoid 100% of his ulti but you can absolutely avoid it most of the time. Idk how many times my team has been on the PL and I hear his ulti pop and I duck behind the PL while my team just stands next to it exposed and die to his ulti.

Oh and if he's trying to kill tanks with his ulti it takes even more time for him to zero in to be able to insta kill so if he is trying to kill tanks as well you have even more time to move the fuck outta da way.

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Just to sum this up for people.

There are no OP heroes. There are only bad players and good players. There are a few cancerous heroes like Tracer and Genji but they really aren't OP.

[Woobels]

Positioning, positioning, positioning. Also have some fucking awareness and stop tunneling things right in front of you.

Not saying you can avoid 100% of his ulti but you can absolutely avoid it most of the time. Idk how many times my team has been on the PL and I hear his ulti pop and I duck behind the PL while my team just stands next to it exposed and die to his ulti.

Oh and if he's trying to kill tanks with his ulti it takes even more time for him to zero in to be able to insta kill so if he is trying to kill tanks as well you have even more time to move the fuck outta da way.

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Just to sum this up for people.

There are no OP heroes. There are only bad players and good players. There are a few cancerous heroes like Tracer and Genji but they really aren't OP.

Honestly I could return the 'it's too early to say anything about balance!' argument back to you saying there's no OP heroes, it's an incredibly arrogant thing to say.

We'll see what Blizzard thinks when they do their balance pass, I'm done trying to prove Widow and McCree are busted.