Fun Detected, Fun Nerfed

[Eapoe]

Yes, punishing people for playing alts/off specs is great game design.

We should also punish people IRL if they choose to have hobbies that aren't their chosen career. Fuck people who like doing more than 1 thing.

How are you being punished? Is requiring more time commitment to achieve something a punishment? I mean, if that's the case I guess everything that's just not handed to you is a punishment because it requires time right?

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Also, let's look at some things about this. People want o act like this is a punishment. Usually, punishment is having something taken away as a repercussion of doing something wrong. Blizzard is in fact adding things to the game, and you're acting like its bad. There is no time added on that you did not already choose to do or not to do previously. The new system let's you go in on your Hunter for a piece of gear, and if you don't get it the same chance on another character (shaman or 2nd Hunter) to get the piece from the same daily/weekly lockout. You aren't forced to run it again, but given a choice for another chance for the main if you decide to instead of waiting for a reset.

[BiggestNoob]

There is no room for discussion and no point in talking if you truly believe Blizzard is trying to "punish" you.

They are. If they weren't they'd alleviate the issues of off-spec and not make AP a non-stop extremely long grind. They've been given feedback for 7 months about this and they've made 0 comments regarding it, nor have they changed it, so at this point we can safely assume it's completely intended, even if incredibly stupid design.

How are you being punished? Is requiring more time commitment to achieve something a punishment? I mean, if that's the case I guess everything that's just not handed to you is a punishment because it requires time right?

No. It's punishing because good players often need to play multiple classes or specs. If you are a healer but can't off-spec DPS and one fight requires 5 healers and the next requires 3, what do we do? What if we need a 3rd tank for a fight just to simplify things in progression and no DH/Druid/DK/Paladin can stay alive because they don't have 2 major nodes and 3 max level relics slotted? Do we go ask in /2 LF1M mythic EN, tank, must have 18 relic nodes unlocked with 850 ilvl!

You get a fixed amount of AP from doing all the things in the game. You can allocate that to one of N weapons. If you pick DPS, you are worse at tanking, so being able to be flexible as needed in competitive raiding is not reasonably possible. Because AP = time spent, and there is no weekly cap or small thing you must do each week (see every previous expansion's rep grinds via dailies or garrisons or legendary items), you either continue grinding on your character to get stronger, or you go play another character and fall behind on your main.

Both of these match the definition of punish: To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.

By choosing to spend AP in one weapon, you're weaker at other aspects of the game. That's a punishment. How am I punished similarly in WoD or MoP by playing one spec over another? By choosing to play another class at all, you're losing AP on your main. That's another punishment. Again, where is such a punishment in previous expansions?

Also, let's look at some things about this. People want o act like this is a punishment. Usually, punishment is having something taken away as a repercussion of doing something wrong. Blizzard is in fact adding things to the game, and you're acting like its bad.

No they're not. Making you pick to play 1 spec or be shitty at multiple or even still shittier at multiple classes is not "adding things to the game." It's making it worse. It's removing something we can currently do without a problem.

There is no time added on that you did not already choose to do or not to do previously.

Yes, there is. This grind requires more time than anything in previous expansions.

The new system let's you go in on your Hunter for a piece of gear, and if you don't get it the same chance on another character (shaman or 2nd Hunter) to get the piece from the same daily/weekly lockout.

Nope, that's not what we're talking about. Loot does not really punish alt/off spec play. You can get off spec gear playing your main spec, and you are generally locked behind time gates so you can play alt characters without any loss on your main. The same is true in neither case for AP and artifacts.

You aren't forced to run it again, but given a choice for another chance for the main if you decide to instead of waiting for a reset.

Except right now you're forced to spend every second playing on your main spec or you are in fact losing power. This is exactly the opposite of what you're describing (the way the game has worked since vanilla).

[Eapoe]

They are. If they weren't they'd alleviate the issues of off-spec and not make AP a non-stop extremely long grind. They've been given feedback for 7 months about this and they've made 0 comments regarding it, nor have they changed it, so at this point we can safely assume it's completely intended, even if incredibly stupid design.



No. It's punishing because good players often need to play multiple classes or specs. If you are a healer but can't off-spec DPS and one fight requires 5 healers and the next requires 3, what do we do? What if we need a 3rd tank for a fight just to simplify things in progression and no DH/Druid/DK/Paladin can stay alive because they don't have 2 major nodes and 3 max level relics slotted? Do we go ask in /2 LF1M mythic EN, tank, must have 18 relic nodes unlocked with 850 ilvl!

You get a fixed amount of AP from doing all the things in the game. You can allocate that to one of N weapons. If you pick DPS, you are worse at tanking, so being able to be flexible as needed in competitive raiding is not reasonably possible. Because AP = time spent, and there is no weekly cap or small thing you must do each week (see every previous expansion's rep grinds via dailies or garrisons or legendary items), you either continue grinding on your character to get stronger, or you go play another character and fall behind on your main.

Both of these match the definition of punish: To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.

By choosing to spend AP in one weapon, you're weaker at other aspects of the game. That's a punishment. How am I punished similarly in WoD or MoP by playing one spec over another? By choosing to play another class at all, you're losing AP on your main. That's another punishment. Again, where is such a punishment in previous expansions?



No they're not. Making you pick to play 1 spec or be shitty at multiple or even still shittier at multiple classes is not "adding things to the game." It's making it worse. It's removing something we can currently do without a problem.



Yes, there is. This grind requires more time than anything in previous expansions.



Nope, that's not what we're talking about. Loot does not really punish alt/off spec play. You can get off spec gear playing your main spec, and you are generally locked behind time gates so you can play alt characters without any loss on your main. The same is true in neither case for AP and artifacts.



Except right now you're forced to spend every second playing on your main spec or you are in fact losing power. This is exactly the opposite of what you're describing (the way the game has worked since vanilla).

I used to think on the same lines as you until I realized it's the exact same system we have in place now, just in a different format. Unless you've been farming the same raid for weeks on live (future: farming the same things in Legion for ArPo), then your offspec is going to be weaker than your main spec. The gear will be in place just like it is for most off pieces (changing from agi to int, etc), but still needing defensive stats for tanking. To further drive this point home, you are not being punished. You might not perform as adequately as a main tank because your weapon is lacking, but even on Live you need different weapons, stats, off pieces. Stating that you are being punished next xpac, you might as well just go on to say you are being punished on Live as well whenever you have to switch because the game doesn't give you full off pieces for every spec or swap stats accordingly on necks, rings, trinkets, cloaks.
As I've said, most people are talking 3-4 months to finish 1 artifact spec completely if you are an utter casual in every sense of the word. That means most players will have it done in 1-2, and with raids not opening until around the 2nd or 3rd week of release (earliest), this is only an issue for the 1st month or 2 of players for a fully upgraded artifact if there is no time gate on the weapon. After that you'll have your 2nd spec, then 3rd, and as previously stated the difference will be about the same as an entry level 1st tier raid. There is no punishment.

[Avaddon]

Basically you're saying you want to invest less time into the game and reap the same rewards as someone who invests a lot of time. Sorry buddy that's not how life works unless you're lucky enough to win the lottery.

[BiggestNoob]

I used to think on the same lines as you until I realized it's the exact same system we have in place now, just in a different format.

It's not the same at all. You can play on your other spec as much as you want and it doesn't make your main spec any weaker, relatively.

And once you've finished a tier, all that's different between two characters or two specs is just gear, which is very easy to obtain.

As I've said, most people are talking 3-4 months to finish 1 artifact spec completely if you are an utter casual in every sense of the word.

There's no way someone who isn't playing a lot is going to fully finish an Artifact weapon in 4 months.

That means most players will have it done in 1-2

Lol, no.

There is no punishment.

What you've just said is in fact that you're punished because even by your admission of some insane "lol AP is ez to get we'll be done in 1-2 months" claim that's not even remotely close to reality, you will have to spend all your time farming before the first raid, which means off specs will be completely useless. You've already admitted that you're punished for playing OS or alts, so yes, there is.

Basically you're saying you want to invest less time into the game and reap the same rewards as someone who invests a lot of time. Sorry buddy that's not how life works unless you're lucky enough to win the lottery.

That's not at all what I said.

[Eapoe]

It's not the same at all. You can play on your other spec as much as you want and it doesn't make your main spec any weaker, relatively.

And once you've finished a tier, all that's different between two characters or two specs is just gear, which is very easy to obtain.



There's no way someone who isn't playing a lot is going to fully finish an Artifact weapon in 4 months.



Lol, no.



What you've just said is in fact that you're punished because even by your admission of some insane "lol AP is ez to get we'll be done in 1-2 months" claim that's not even remotely close to reality, you will have to spend all your time farming before the first raid, which means off specs will be completely useless. You've already admitted that you're punished for playing OS or alts, so yes, there is.



That's not at all what I said.

Yes, you can play your main spec and your offspecs will always be weaker without the RNG of all the loot you need dropping. All specs benefit from same secondary stats, but not the same way. Your offspec is always weaker until you've invested the time to raid multiple times for multiple pieces, unless MAYBE you do 10 man raids and somehow no one else in your raid uses the same gear as you.
That's not punishment unless you try this horrible reasoning that it's any different from how it is now. When WoD hit, you farmed dungeon gear for your primary spec, and then you farmed more for your offspec, the same mad rush that you are describing will happen in Legion. The only pieces that switch the benefits are tier, necks/rings/trinkets/cloaks/some classes weapons all carry different stats for heals, tanks, and dps.
And yes, there's already people playing Beta talking about how quickly you will complete leveling 1 artifact. The only way you will not have it done in that time is if there is a gate on how fast it can be leveled, which automatically means you will be putting bonus ArPo into an offspec weapon.

[BiggestNoob]

Yes, you can play your main spec and your offspecs will always be weaker without the RNG of all the loot you need dropping. All specs benefit from same secondary stats, but not the same way.

This is much smaller than anything in the artifact weapon. To the point that it's within actual combat RNG.

Your offspec is always weaker until you've invested the time to raid multiple times for multiple pieces, unless MAYBE you do 10 man raids and somehow no one else in your raid uses the same gear as you.

Except you can actually gear your off spec while you're raiding on your main spec. You can't improve both your main spec artifact weapon and your off spec artifact weapon simultaneously. One gets AP at the expense of the other.

That's not punishment unless you try this horrible reasoning that it's any different from how it is now.

It's completely different.

And yes, there's already people playing Beta talking about how quickly you will complete leveling 1 artifact. The only way you will not have it done in that time is if there is a gate on how fast it can be leveled, which automatically means you will be putting bonus ArPo into an offspec weapon.

It can't be done in that time frame. Even frag playing 15 hours a day barely has 2 major nodes in DH (a weapon where it's easy to get 2 major nodes) and has actually spent AP in an off spec because grinding out 4k for a node in your main spec would be 10+ unlocks in your OS and they're just fucking around in mythic dungeons. That's after 2.5 weeks, and with +2 mythics giving loot & AP every single clear, which is a bug. He's missing at least 3 important nodes for Havoc and those would be 3/3 nodes because of the way the weapon is laid out (there is no easy path to get all 3 majors and all the good nodes short of ~25 unlocks, and it scales exponentially after 12).

It will take at least a month to fully unlock the good things in 1 spec and 4+ months to finish a weapon with an enormous amount of play time (10+ hours per day for a single spec). That's far more time investment to get a single spec ready than is even required by split farming in SoO and WoD.