Why are players so defensive?

[ttak82]

Why don't you ask "why are players so aggressive"?

"Players call them out ..." Well what makes you think that it should be universally accepted to "call people out". Yeah you can do it. But why are you surprised when a lot of times, the reply will be to the effect of "fuck off"? Why is lecturing or berating people OK, but retorting isn't?

I don't play this kind of games. But if I did, I sure wouldn't be interested in some greasy kid on the other end of the wire "calling me out". Why should I? If you can't stand people screwing up, log the fuck off or something.

There's no use in calling people out. It doesn't do any good, it's just there for morons to vent their frustration and feel better about themselves. It's idiotic to assume that if someone makes a mistake, it's somehow justified to get on their nerves. Nobody's morally obliged to make you happy. Chances are, people are aware of their fuck-ups anyway. Last thing they need is some jackass getting in their face. As if anyone was beyond error.

Pretty much this. Basically it's like saying "We lost because of you". That's never a good feeling. And it will never elicit a good reaction from anyone. In reality, it is a team game, and it's up to all 5 to coordinate and get on the same level. No one admits "I am not good enough to carry others to win". It's easier to just pile the blame on o others. And that is a dick move.
I've been at both ends (telling and being old), but there is a way to tell people just as there is a way to handle stuff. I have relatively thick skin and brush things off and at the same time, if someone is messing up I just take the loss - because that is not going to change. Yes, I can't carry every time. I deal with that.

[RH92]

*Post*

The most important part of my post was people avoid and ignore any communication in an online game.

This is the actual problem, not calling someone out or telling anybody shut the fuck up. I can start lobbies or games with discussing how we want to approach it and how we should play to counter X and Y. You can be happy if there is even one person communicating with you, most of the time you are ignored and they will just do whatever they want to do anyway. Which is sickening since we are talking about a team oriented game.

I mean, you don't have to be friend with every stranger you meet, but why do you join an online team game when you refuse to talk when a problem arises? In the end you don't even have to talk when you do your job properly. Problem is, as I already said, people expect to get away with every fuck up they made. If this wasn't their attitude, they would learn more and play better.

Both sides are actually wrong. People who fuck up are stubborn and shut down every information coming to them and people who rage are not addressing their point in a proper way and expect all to play certain way, then both sides heat it up even more in a vicious never ending cycle.

On the other hand, brash people are more prone to discussion. Sure they might rage at first, but when you provide some good arguments they are usually more flexible and can adjust. In general I am more sympathetic to people who actually care, this modern attitude "I could care less" is just alien to me (The incorrect phrase is intentional).

[apepi]

The most important part of my post was people avoid and ignore any communication in an online game.

This is the actual problem, not calling someone out or telling anybody shut the fuck up. I can start lobbies or games with discussing how we want to approach it and how we should play to counter X and Y. You can be happy if there is even one person communicating with you, most of the time you are ignored and they will just do whatever they want to do anyway. Which is sickening since we are talking about a team oriented game.

I mean, you don't have to be friend with every stranger you meet, but why do you join an online team game when you refuse to talk when a problem arises? In the end you don't even have to talk when you do your job properly. Problem is, as I already said, people expect to get away with every fuck up they made. If this wasn't their attitude, they would learn more and play better.

Both sides are actually wrong. People who fuck up are stubborn and shut down every information coming to them and people who rage are not addressing their point in a proper way and expect all to play certain way, then both sides heat it up even more in a vicious never ending cycle.

On the other hand, brash people are more prone to discussion. Sure they might rage at first, but when you provide some good arguments they are usually more flexible and can adjust. In general I am more sympathetic to people who actually care, this modern attitude "I could care less" is just alien to me (The incorrect phrase is intentional).

The problem is not about addressing the issue, but people not letting go that something happened and finding ways to fix it instead of keeping harboring on what happened.

For instance, I go Water Dragon on Lili sometimes. I am a level 20 Lili, I know what I am doing. I out heal their healer(malf) the whole game, but what do I get from my team? "OMG Lili went Water Dragon, We have no heals!", the whole entire fucking game. They keep bringing the bs up complaining that is why we are losing instead of the real reasons we are losing.

Heres another example that was the last game I played: We are losing very bad, people have made mistakes, not going to tributes, being too slow, not soaking and etc. But we slowly pull back. We don't dwindle on the past. We play for the present, always thinking "What can we do now to win even though we just lost X?" Damage Control. Instead of creating conflict mid game, solve them by playing. My shot calling ended up winning us the game. We honestly should have lost, for most of the game we were losing, but playing damage control works. Instead of fixing the problem by telling people what they did wrong, just deal with it.

There is nothing wrong about telling people that they did something wrong, but you have to learn how deal with what they did wrong and fix it. Don't keep bringing it up, it won't help after that. People don't know how to tell someone that they made a mistake, but the most important of that is them to know that it is okay to make them. Everyone fucks up, but this game is about mitigating your teams fuck ups the most. Who ever does that wins.

[RH92]

*Post*

You don't have to explain this to me.

It is just vast majority of people don't want to communicate at all, sometimes they get frustrated and vent it out in chat. They are not looking for a meaningful conversation. Doesn't matter if I point out a mistake and provide an advice to avoid the same mistake happening again, in most cases people will ignore me.

You can see this issue in every online game nowadays. It just doesn't matter what, how and when you say it, people don't care and don't want to interact with other human beings to begin with.

[apepi]

You don't have to explain this to me.

It is just vast majority of people don't want to communicate at all, sometimes they get frustrated and vent it out in chat. They are not looking for a meaningful conversation. Doesn't matter if I point out a mistake and provide an advice to avoid the same mistake happening again, in most cases people will ignore me.

You can see this issue in every online game nowadays. It just doesn't matter what, how and when you say it, people don't care and don't want to interact with other human beings to begin with.

It is more not to explain it to you, but to everyone.

[Acidbaron]

Because most people can't take criticism bad players generally don't know why they are bad and think everyone else is doing something wrong.

Honestly i just mute chat most of the time and try to carry the best i can, if people are blind to pings they are blind to chat. Most of my comments are reserved for the draft beyond that anything is seen by blizzard as toxic

[Lesane]

This probably could be in the Video Game general forum, as I've seen this behavior for decades in multiplayer games, but I really only play HotS these days and a very particular situation came up to make this evident.

Basically it boils down to this:

A player does something wrong. Another player calls them out. The player in the wrong has 2 options:

1. Say my bad and fix it. Done.
2. Act like they are 12, get defensive and then cause an argument, and/or troll the group for the rest of the game.


The particular situation played out like this:

A person (not me) was padding their siege numbers and ignoring objectives. We were losing team fights 4v5 every time. Another player in the group (not me) calls them out. I was pretty much just observing this encounter play out. Instead of the player padding their numbers simply saying "Sorry I'll be there next time", they go on a rant about "WHY YOU SO SALTY?". Then they being to just troll the group by basically being nearly inactive the whole time. Not only gets defensive... but then goes out of their way to fuck the group over...

The whole game is just an argument between the players the whole time.


If I tunnel something and fuck up and someone calls me out, I say "My bad, I'll do better next time". No argument occurs. I don't troll people. I don't get offended. The problem is over.

Why do people get so defensive if they are doing shitty and get called out? It's like... it's a game...

Because 90% of the time when they call out a mistake either
A) the player himself is aware of it and just fucked up. It's akin to saying "you shouldn't crash your car" after someone crashed their car.
B) it's done in a passive agressive manner or a straight up toxic one
C) the person in question has had his fair share of mistakes and misplays during the game as well

I have like 3.5k games played and I don't think I've ever seen someone give constructive feedback in this game. This game is too fast and single match based to have an environment for constructive feedback and theorycrafting like you had in a game like WoW, where people would stand hours in front of their capital city trying out stuff and learning from each other with duels. For a game like this one you have to participate in discussions on message boards and watch highly skilled streamers to improve. A guy telling you "omg use your heroic" won't improve you.

[Deleted]

Because I mostly play tank. /thread

No, joking, seriously now, there's a number of reasons:
-they believe they are better and what they did was not a mistake
-they have large egos and even if they know they did a mistake they would not admit it
-the advice was dumb in the first place (some people give horrible advice)
-the advice is given in a jerky fashion (example: "you suck idiot, use [x ability] you moron") so the target of the advice is less likely to follow it.

[RH92]

It is more not to explain it to you, but to everyone.

Okay, my bad. I slightly misunderstood your post.

[DeadmanWalking]

This probably could be in the Video Game general forum, as I've seen this behavior for decades in multiplayer games, but I really only play HotS these days and a very particular situation came up to make this evident.

Basically it boils down to this:

A player does something wrong. Another player calls them out. The player in the wrong has 2 options:

1. Say my bad and fix it. Done.
2. Act like they are 12, get defensive and then cause an argument, and/or troll the group for the rest of the game.


The particular situation played out like this:

A person (not me) was padding their siege numbers and ignoring objectives. We were losing team fights 4v5 every time. Another player in the group (not me) calls them out. I was pretty much just observing this encounter play out. Instead of the player padding their numbers simply saying "Sorry I'll be there next time", they go on a rant about "WHY YOU SO SALTY?". Then they being to just troll the group by basically being nearly inactive the whole time. Not only gets defensive... but then goes out of their way to fuck the group over...

The whole game is just an argument between the players the whole time.


If I tunnel something and fuck up and someone calls me out, I say "My bad, I'll do better next time". No argument occurs. I don't troll people. I don't get offended. The problem is over.

Why do people get so defensive if they are doing shitty and get called out? It's like... it's a game...

It is not in human nature to recognise personal failures or being in the wrong. It is human nature to justify anything you do no matter how bad. Nobody thinks they are a bad guy for robbing a bank, they think they need the money to survive and the money is insured so victimless crime. Then they really enjoyed the rush so they continue to rob banks until caught.

And especially in video games people who put a lot more value in their skills (that they may not actually have) than usual will find it impossible to reason that they are one of the reasons why they lost, so their mind immediately finds someone else to blame so their brain can deal with having lost.

Some people are never going to open their minds beyond basic human nature.

[D-Monae]

People say it's "human nature", but humans are largely social creatures. While that means some people may want to be "dominant" or preserve their self-esteem, they can really work together well.
I've dealt with this IRL and in games. Personally, I find some people are just impossible to work with, but are in the minority. One tactic I try to do in both areas is get them engaged with you at the same time as the activity. For example:

1. Get an icebreaker early, preferably before anything bad happens. Even if it's just to show you're not a raging jerk from the get-go. If they associate your name with something good, you can get the ball rolling. From "GL HF" to capping a merc camp, everything helps.
2. If something needs doing, try to get them to do it with you, making it about a team effort. Saying "Go to shrine, NOW!" (with multiple pings) vs. "Hey (Name), wanna help me with shrine?"
3. Compliments help, but a little humbleness and self-depreciating jokes I find can cool hot tempers, at least somewhat. If you lose the shrines, blaming really, REALLY doesn't help. Acknowledging you personally failed with a light joke, even if it wasn't your fault, can open others to see what happened without too much.
4. No matter what, it'll happen you get those raging jerks. Engaging them on their level does nothing, but being kind to anyone else redeemable can go a long way.
5. Even if there are better ideas at the time, proper teamwork and execution can carry through to the end. Getting that one loner to help ASAP, instead of afking, solo laning or outright feeding, can be worth it.

Now, you may not get much results. If you are dealing with a player of insufficient skill for your matchmaking level, the best you can do is at least encourage them to keep playing and possibly get better. I'm not saying coach their gaming career, but if you want people as a whole to be less defensive, it'll take a large scale effort.

For that minority I mentioned though? Ignore 'em and move on. You can probably tell right away.

[Mormolyce]

the player himself is aware of it and just fucked up. It's akin to saying "you shouldn't crash your car" after someone crashed their car.

I believe that that is frequently not the case, based on how many eg, overextenders I see repeat the same mistake.