BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Zoranon]

Take this as a plea from someone from a medium sized country: Please stay in the EU, you are the only major EU country which has been behaving sanely lately. Without you, EU will become a protections, bureaucratic nightmare.

[Mace]

I find the hypocrisy funny. Your reasoning is flawed in itself. See, you lot are saying "Britain doesn't need the EU, we can do on our own", yet the EU - a substantially larger and more stable market in general, with magnitudes bigger budgets - is going to hurt over one country leaving?

In what economic world does that logic work?

i don't see Britain being bankrupt or alone out of the EU, i don't see trade stopping, I think Britain can have both a stable and prosperous economy outside and alongside the EU...what has it been doing all the time? to make it sound like Britain is doomed without the EU is where i senese 100% con, lie and MANIPULATION... I HATE MANIPULATION ... the EU economy is neither stable, nor prosperous atm, it is struggling, fighting recession and hoping to stay a float, as is Britain's, the hope is that it will stabilize and become really prosperous. but it's a hope, it's not a certainty. The way people are talking its as if Britain will be cut off and put on a separate planet all by itself.

It sounds like globalist posturing, they are putting a lot of faith in something that isn't a certainty and not even looking like one. Or have we all simply forgotten the last few years in EUrope?

[Theodarzna]

First, it's not unfortunate. For Britains wanting to leave, it may be fortunate. I wouldn't judge it too early. Second, you probably mean secession. And the EU is not a country, so talking about a Gouvernment is a bit misleading. By the way, the secession is actually regulated in EU law. No precedent needed. No drama, either. You're overrating the actual effect this has on anyone but Britons.

I can only speak for myself, but personally I'm more offended at them not wanting to play with us than actually concerned about anything economically. Concerning money, I actually don't give a fuck what the UK does. They hardly matter half as much as they think they do for the greater picture of the 27 member states.

It has a parliament, a flag and an anthem,



By Eddie Izzard, I say you are a country. If it makes laws (regulations) that are binding and made law in each of the respective States. As of yet national law cannot be appealed to an EU court, so I guess that is one tick down. Alright, its not a country, it just wears the clothing of a country and seems to be headed in that trajectory . So I shall grant you that it might not be a country yet, or it might be, perhaps it would help if I could have 20 people tell me what the EU is and they all give me the same answer since in these threads I've heard multiple version of "Is the EU a country or not," debate from people who are decidedly pro-EU.

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no sorry, these are internationally respected organisations, you cant just claim everyone is biassed against you if you dont like what they say, thats just paranoia, and not an arguement.

These are the highest level of respected economic organisations, all against Brexit.

You've lost the economic case, jsut accept it, you are looking very tin foil hat paranoid right now.

Respected by whom? You? I am certain the IMF isn't loved in the "third world," nor are most of the banking institutions respected, well except by one another. How many people in any given country know about the IMF to any detail? How many have a positive respectful view of it?

[caervek]

Leave.

I view the UK leaving the EU like a prostitute giving up that profession, yes we will probably be worse off financially but not having to take it up the **** anymore will be worth it.

I despise the EU for all the crap they have done which we have had to put up with, and while leaving doesn't mean any of it will be undone at least it will hopefully prevent some of the bad stuff they have planned for the future (I.E banning decent hairdryers/toasters/kettles).

In the end this is my chance to tell the EU to **** off over the stuff they have done that's negatively impacted me and hopefully escape some of the stuff they will do.

[Slant]

i don't see Britain being bankrupt or alone out of the EU, i don't see trade stopping, I think Britain can have both a stable and prosperous economy outside and alongside the EU...what has it been doing all the time? to make it sound like Britain is doomed without the EU is where i senese 100% con, lie and MANIPULATION... I HATE MANIPULATION ... the EU economy is neither stable, nor prosperous atm, it is struggling, fighting recession and hoping to stay a float, as is Britain's, the hope is that it will stabilize and become really prosperous. but it's a hope, it's not a certainty. The way people are talking its as if Britain will be cut off and put on a separate planet all by itself.

It sounds like globalist posturing, they are putting a lot of faith in something that isn't a certainty and not even looking like one. Or have we all simply forgotten the last few years in EUrope?

I haven't said that Britain would be bankrupt or trade would stop. I've not even said their economy would be unstable. The EU economy is so stable that even Greece couldn't unbalance it. The recession some countries face in the EU are hardly a real problem.

But let's talk about manipulation. I say the EU market is more stable than the British market. You twist it into me somehow implying the British market is unstable. Then you proceed to pull a "bankrupt" statement out of thin air that I never made. I have talked about the idea that Britain will have to deal with the EU as an entity in the same manner China has to deal with the EU, or the US. And you somehow twist that into "trade is stopping". Something I've never even implied. When I point out that Britains don't know how it is to deal with the EU as an outsider, you twist it into me implying Britain is cut off and on a separate planet by themselves.

Do you get the picture? Do you understand why I'm thinking you're full of bullshit and hyperbole? And you have the nerve to accuse us of manipulation. Is that really all you guys have as far as arguments go? That's a pathetic basis to make such a major decision...

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It has a parliament, a flag and an anthem,



By Eddie Izzard, I say you are a country. If it makes laws (regulations) that are binding and made law in each of the respective States. As of yet national law cannot be appealed to an EU court, so I guess that is one tick down. Alright, its not a country, it just wears the clothing of a country and seems to be headed in that trajectory . So I shall grant you that it might not be a country yet, or it might be, perhaps it would help if I could have 20 people tell me what the EU is and they all give me the same answer since in these threads I've heard multiple version of "Is the EU a country or not," debate from people who are decidedly pro-EU.

And this is the sad state of it all. Uninformed people parroting some bullshit they read on some propaganda site and that is the basis for their decision and further fearmongering. It's sad really, when you think about it.

The EU would like to be a country, perhaps, some decades down the road. But at the moment it's not a country. It is legally defined as a supranational entity. Something between an institution like the UN and a country. The EU is unique in that it's decidedly not a country but has a legal body that can do stuff. So think what you like, but it is factually incorrect.

As for the EU making laws, that is also factually incorrect. The EU doesn't pass those laws. The national Gouvernments pass those laws. The EU legally binds countries to ratifying those laws, but they are still passed by local, national Gouvernments. National law can be appealed to the EU court wherever EU law is concerned. So you're wrong about that as well. I mean fuck, literally everything you said so far is factually incorrect.

[Mace]

If you base your argument on one economist who says it will be beneficial, then you need to explain why you are ignoring the other nine who say it will be detrimental.

Using economists as an argument only strengthens the remain camp.
.

Using economists like they are some sort of prophets wielding in infallible truth and certain knowledge of the future is dumb to me. It's opinon that's it. They all scramble to predict things, falling over themselves. Look at the 2008 market crash huh.. how many were saying one was coming? weren't most of them touting "everything is going to be fine".. little liars who have fooled themselves into really believing that the only real truth is whatever you believe it to be. imagining the sky is red is not going to make it so. And so they are constantly shocked when things don't turn out as their carefuly laid plans and their analysis don't pan out.

Let's look at what we know will really happpen for sure. Britain loses it's sovereignty, and the man who tried to show us and convince us that we could affect that beast of the EU, failed miserable, and he's our prime minster, how is the ordinary man going to fair who already struggles to be heard in our democratic society?

SO I'm sorry, while I hope for a better economy and a better tomorrow, I'm not going for a plan that involves surrendering myore of my freedom to an entity I cannot affect.

European countries are full of peoples that are far too different, trying to make it the USA or Roman Empire 2.0 feels very forced, the U.S at least is one culture, one nation, one people's, and even they fought to be able to be whole. Maybe one day when we all think pretty similar, and all can speak the same language and believe in the same ideals, but until tehn we are better separate but working together.

[caervek]

The EU doesn't pass those laws. The national Gouvernments pass those laws. The EU legally binds countries to ratifying those laws, but they are still passed by local, national Gouvernments.

Haha, so basically the EU doesn't do bad things, it just forces others to do it for them? Oh I guess that's okay then >.>

[Kalis]

Using economists like they are some sort of prophets wielding in infallible truth and certain knowledge of the future is dumb to me. It's opinon that's it. They all scramble to predict things, falling over themselves. Look at the 2008 market crash huh.. how many were saying one was coming? weren't most of them touting "everything is going to be fine".. little liars who have fooled themselves into really believing that the only real truth is whatever you believe it to be. imagining the sky is red is not going to make it so. And so they are constantly shocked when things don't turn out as their carefuly laid plans and their analysis don't pan out.

Using a handful of economists that agree with you and ignoring the vast majority who do not is not an argument though, which is the gist of my point. Economists virtually all say a Brexit is bad, so using economists is a remain argument.

Let's look at what we know will really happpen for sure. Britain loses it's sovereignty, and the man who tried to show us and convince us that we could affect that beast of the EU, failed miserable, and he's our prime minster, how is the ordinary man going to fair who already struggles to be heard in our democratic society?

We maintained our opt outs, we gained some others. What were you hoping that he would or could achieve?

[Slant]

Haha, so basically the EU doesn't do bad things, it just forces others to do it for them? Oh I guess that's okay then >.>

The EU actually doesn't do bad things, but I'll let that one slide. Let's assume the EU creates a new law to not only burn babies but another law to burn all children under the age of 7. Your local Gouvernment still has national legislation preventing you from ratifying that. You can just... you know, not ratify it. It'll end up before a court and the judge will ask you "Soooo, if you don't want to burn 6 year olds, why exactly did you sign the agreement after negotiating this?" and then you'll stand there like a douche...

[Deleted]

because organisations have to consider the weight of views of their members and stake their professional reputations on the line. Individuals will go either way, but organisations like the IMF, or business groups, give a view based on a collective judgement, its more important and it carries more weight than individuals.

Remember the Brexit camp were not that long ago praising the IFS for being an independant organisation.....then started bashing it when it said something they dont like!

Put up or shut up, is I think the appropraite phrase here. Name one organisation which supports brexit on economic grounds, or concede the economic arguement....

its the individual who this vote is for, companys are not voting as a whole its for all british people to decide

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remain camp = brainwahed masses to me, all i did for my vote was flip a coin and it landed on tails for leave so im sticking with that

[Kalis]

...all i did for my vote was flip a coin and it landed on tails for leave so im sticking with that

Please just stop, you are making British people look bad.

[Slant]

We maintained our opt outs, we gained some others. What were you hoping that he would or could achieve?

This is actually a question I'm curious about myself. What exactly are the conditions under which it would deemed acceptable to remain in the EU?

(I fear the answer may be something along the line of "Non-participation in everything except being on the list of member states. And only if you write it in Union Jack colours!")

But seriously, what do the leavers actually want from the EU to convince them to stay?

[Kalis]

But seriously, what do the leavers actually want from the EU to convince them to stay?

A lot of British people do not like Europe, so nothing would convince them to stay.

To be fair, your lot and France have not really helped dispel the claim that Europeans are annoying.

[Mace]

I haven't said that Britain would be bankrupt or trade would stop. I've not even said their economy would be unstable. The EU economy is so stable that even Greece couldn't unbalance it. The recession some countries face in the EU are hardly a real problem.

But let's talk about manipulation. I say the EU market is more stable than the British market. You twist it into me somehow implying the British market is unstable. Then you proceed to pull a "bankrupt" statement out of thin air that I never made. I have talked about the idea that Britain will have to deal with the EU as an entity in the same manner China has to deal with the EU, or the US. And you somehow twist that into "trade is stopping". Something I've never even implied. When I point out that Britains don't know how it is to deal with the EU as an outsider, you twist it into me implying Britain is cut off and on a separate planet by themselves.

Do you get the picture? Do you understand why I'm thinking you're full of bullshit and hyperbole? And you have the nerve to accuse us of manipulation. Is that really all you guys have as far as arguments go? That's a pathetic basis to make such a major decision...
.

don't take it personally, you're not the one i was accusing of manipulating. and my response was not exclusive to the things you said, but to some of the things I've heard said.

I am not part of any propoganda campaign, I have not read any propoganda save for the passing comments and glimpses here and there. I feel apalled a the immigration fear mongering the exit campaign is also using, but my position and decision atm has been made based on what I've observed and regardless of their campaigning.

I really don't believe in forcing people into a community because you think that they will be much more prosperous together. I think there will be in unity, ofc, but you can't force unity either. We don't all believe in the same things, the same ideals and the same ways, and we have a right to do things differently and should maintain that rather than give that up for the promise of greater prosperity.

The thing about this, is its a bad assumption to think that we will all work well cohesively and come to an agreemenet or "see the way" in time.. tha'ts no guarantee. If we were all of one mind about things, it would work, but you can't make that call for everyone, and we know that in this world it doesn't work like that.. people want to do different things and different ways and don't appreciate being forced.

This is what I feel we're opening ourselves up to full on. It's not worth whispered promises of power and wealth. Not at that price. I just don't trust it.

I don't trust the EU unit based on what I've seen so far. I don't trust in our governement able to protect our rights, or ways at all either. . So, come again in another 20 years when most of us are in our 40s/50s, lets see how we all feel then.

[Slant]

A lot of British people do not like Europe, so nothing would convince them to stay.

To be fair, your lot and France have not really helped dispel the claim that Europeans are annoying.

Ah, so it is personal? Well then, that's actually a proper basis to make such a decision. It's mightily stupid and arrogant, but hey, it is more reasonable than all the fearmongering. Would help if they admitted to the truth, though.

[Deleted]

Please just stop, you are making British people look bad.

dnt insult me when in your location it says malta

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A lot of British people do not like Europe, so nothing would convince them to stay.

To be fair, your lot and France have not really helped dispel the claim that Europeans are annoying.

are all 22k of your posts like this, french and english have always had a mutual hatred towards each other same with germany, yes i want to leave but not forthe reasons you say

[Slant]

don't take it personally, you're not the one i was accusing of manipulating. and my response was not exclusive to the things you said, but to some of the things I've heard said.

I am not part of any propoganda campaign, I have not read any propoganda save for the passing comments and glimpses here and there. I feel apalled a the immigration fear mongering the exit campaign is also using, but my position and decision atm has been made based on what I've observed and regardless of their campaigning.

I really don't believe in forcing people into a community because you think that they will be much more prosperous together. I think there will be in unity, ofc, but you can't force unity either. We don't all believe in the same things, the same ideals and the same ways, and we have a right to do things differently and should maintain that rather than give that up for the promise of greater prosperity.

The thing about this, is its a bad assumption to think that we will all work well cohesively and come to an agreemenet or "see the way" in time.. tha'ts no guarantee. If we were all of one mind about things, it would work, but you can't make that call for everyone, and we know that in this world it doesn't work like that.. people want to do different things and different ways and don't appreciate being forced.

This is what I feel we're opening ourselves up to full on. It's not worth whispered promises of power and wealth. Not at that price. I just don't trust it.

I don't trust the EU unit based on what I've seen so far. I don't trust in our governement able to protect our rights, or ways at all either. . So, come again in another 20 years when most of us are in our 40s/50s, lets see how we all feel then.

This is a post with valid points. I can respect that. I wonder, though... how do you think England became a nation? I think the worst someone can legitimately say about the EU is that they're going to fast. And essentially that is probably the underlying main reason why people are for leaving the EU. Germany and France may be pushing too hard for European integration and fusion. There are reason for that, but there are also good reasons to want to brake the whole thing down to a more moderate speed. Countries don't just pop into existance, they have to grow naturally. And that takes time.

See, I understand that. This is a reasoning I can argue with and against. All the fearmongering, however, I cannot argue with. It's insanity on a level that I can't even copy.

[-Skye]

Stay, because the only arguments I've been shown for leaving is immigration and a whole lot of xenophobia and racism and I like my life the way it is

[Kalis]

Ah, so it is personal? Well then, that's actually a proper basis to make such a decision. It's mightily stupid and arrogant, but hey, it is more reasonable than all the fearmongering. Would help if they admitted to the truth, though.

A lot of them do admit it, generally they are not the ones that the leave campaign let talk though.

dnt insult me when in your location it says malta

I am not Maltese, I am British.

[Mayhem]

I don't need to provide evidence for the truth

You do understand that people will not just take your word for it because you say it is the truth.