[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Facktotum]

mm is lookin good in legion way better than on live right now but bm, they fucked up that spec big time, they best sort some stuff out before expansion launches or no way im playing that shit.

You must be playing a different game, MM on beta is as bad as it can be. You should try doing some mythic dungeons where you need to keep moving from aoe and other shit. There are fights where you cannot cast more than 10 aimed shots in the whole fight because you need to keep moving all the time. That means you do roughly 100k dps which is absolutely pathetic

There is no reason to bring an MM over a BM hunter for mythic+

[Deleted]

Steady Shot needs to do a lot more damage.

[Mahmeya]

Not much different other than Aimed Shot becoming standstill, RNG as part of the core rotation, ramp-up time, heavy reliance on debuffs, camouflage and binding arrow being mutually exclusive, deterrence having one charge and the loss of several utility abilities such as traps, tranqulising shot, distracting shot, and master's call...right?

Offensive dispells are gone as a whole, so Tranq shot argument is gone.
Explosive trap was dealing terrible damage anyway, and won't be missed in PvE
Distracting shot was useful in very few situations (getting infernals on Archimonde last phase into binding shot)

Amount of CC and anti-CC (hence glyphed axplo trap and MC) should be reduced overall as well - but I don't pay much attention to PvP parts of the changes, so no idea.

[Deleted]

Before you talk out ur ass you should see some comps with BM hunters beating mythic +3 or higher with BM topping dps meters

in english.

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what the fuck does that mean? the guy have a point. someone saying that BM is 5 years old is probably farms heroic 5ppl and thinks he is all that and reached skill cap of a class.

ofc it spec is easy, as easy as any other in this current alpha/beta build. but don't tell me that spamming all that is available/flashing on your panel is a way to play a fuckin' game. you will always have a room for improvment and fuckin' up. BM is not a fuckin' ballista is some side quest where you literally have one button that deal damage. when live hit the servers, all of you "BM is for 5 years" guys go on Warcraftlogs and check BM charts and if you see that first 200 parses is not identical on any encounter, take you comments and shove it up your ''pro'' asses.

I'm sorry, couldn't held it.

calm ur tits you stupid cunt, i know mm too hard for you but buckle down.

Infracted

[Skulkesyk]

So what spec is lookin like the better one for raiding? :P

[Ifritlol]

in english.

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calm ur tits you stupid cunt, i know mm too hard for you but buckle down.

Alright bro, you are obviously so pro that you don't even need any argument to prove your point and your opinion is absolute truth. MM is better that live, BM is for 5 years. Nothing to do here guys! You can all go home!

[kaminaris]

Offensive dispells are gone as a whole, so Tranq shot argument is gone.

Thats one point right, tranq won't be missed at least in pve.

Explosive trap was dealing terrible damage anyway, and won't be missed in PvE
Distracting shot was useful in very few situations (getting infernals on Archimonde last phase into binding shot)

And thats wrong on so many levels. I used glyphed trap to actually separate infernals on last phase Archimonde if none of the DK had grip.
As well as Distracting shot if I needed to just get one.

I used it sooooo many times in challange mode that i can say for sure that I will be missing explosive trap.
Combo Vortex + Binding Shot + Explo trap was OP on challanges.

[Deleted]

Not much different other than Aimed Shot becoming standstill, RNG as part of the core rotation, ramp-up time, heavy reliance on debuffs, camouflage and binding arrow being mutually exclusive, deterrence having one charge and the loss of several utility abilities such as traps, tranqulising shot, distracting shot, and master's call...right?

Deterrence is the only really big change to me, and I don't like this turtle shit, a shitty cd that prevents damage output.

Aimed shot, not really a big change, if you are a veteran hunter back in wrath/cata you should be used to it rather fast, took me maybe 1 minute on the beta to get used to standing still whilst casting, and to work around it on boss fights, so I don't really see this as a massive change, maybe an annoyance, but to me generators should be instant and spenders should do a lot of damage, but have casts and should require you to be standstill.

Marking shot and RNG, I just see it as an advance chim shot. It does the exact same function, cleave, and it generally always marks a target within the cooldown of chim shot, the only difference is, it can proc, has no cd and hits everything that's marked. Personally I use sidewinders, so I never really have issues with this RNG, you generally always have one or two procs within one sidewinder recharge rate. I do think they could tweak it a bit more.

Traps, never really that important, bar a few fights, and most of the time you have dks gripping, or locks stunning making traps, unless you had none of them, very useless, and their damage potential to say the least, was non existant. So I don't really feel remotely sad for losing it, even though it does make soloing stuff much easier in general.

Tranq shot, distracting shot only useful on maybe 2 bosses per expansion, so I'm not really going to miss it that much.

Camouflage, only useful in pvp, in pve I don't think anyone ever used it, unless to skip past mobs.

Masters call not really that useful, unless in pvp, or you effed up in pve,

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Thats one point right, tranq won't be missed at least in pve.



And thats wrong on so many levels. I used glyphed trap to actually separate infernals on last phase Archimonde if none of the DK had grip.
As well as Distracting shot if I needed to just get one.

I used it sooooo many times in challange mode that i can say for sure that I will be missing explosive trap.
Combo Vortex + Binding Shot + Explo trap was OP on challanges.

Wasted gcd, distracting shot is enough, infernals will run to what has aggro and they will split up instantly anyway, so again pretty useless. I don't even think our dks grip the infernals, they get blown up before they even get up.. half the time.

Not to mention bursting shot with binding shot works too, just requires you to be close range, which is just a bit more annoying.

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So what spec is lookin like the better one for raiding? :P

Doesn't matter right now, nothing is balanced yet.

I do expect MM to be king on single target and any kind of spread aoe cleave fights. BM will pretty much be the stacked aoe spec.

SV I'm not even sure how that will end up, I just hope it never becomes viable, because a melee hunter doesn't appeal me at all.

[Rhokz]

Give back Killshot to MM.
Buff Aimed Shot.
Make Patient Sniper baseline.
Bring Back a Aspect of the Fox (for personal use) with a short CD.

Spec fixed

[kaminaris]

RNG, you generally always have one or two procs within one sidewinder recharge rate.

Or you have none, that does happen.

Traps, never really that important

They were important. Especially in challange modes, now that we have mythic+ they would have been even more relevant.

Camouflage, only useful in pvp, in pve I don't think anyone ever used it, unless to skip past mobs.

Dude, you are contradicting yourself. I used camo AGAIN in challange modes back in MoP and in Draenor. I used it quite frequently after wipes to not bother a healer. Also to skip mobs while questing. Don't talk for everyone.

Wasted gcd, distracting shot is enough, infernals will run to what has aggro and they will split up instantly anyway

No they didn't, we had 3 dks on Archi Mythic progression, then 2 dk thought it was good idea to grip 2 separate infernals to the one point. Explo trap was life saver back then. Now its irrelevant anymore with that nerf (+10 ilvl uprade). But it was relevant back then. Distracting shot would not separate them instantly, explo trap would. Now we have none of those abilities. Explo was a life saver in any situation when someone failed there. And if you progressed it back before nerf, allowing them to stand near ich other for few seconds meant they would be healed to 100% and that meant wipe.

Not to mention bursting shot with binding shot works too

Bursting shot is nowhere near explosive trap in terms of distance the mob is traveling.

Thing is, even if hunter wasn't best DPS it always had place in raid, challange mode, mythic dung because of variety of utilities like:
1. Filling missing buff with either pet or lone wolf
2. aspect of pack
3. binding shot, explo trap if AOE stun was missing
4. distracting shot
5. traps
6. Disengage (remember Siegecrafter Blackfuse?)

Now unless we would be topping dps charts, we would be easily replaced by other classes. MM has almost no utility whatsoever, he is not mobile, not fun to play with 3 buttons and RNG in core rotation. BM as always is not good at target switching also lost most of utility spells. Survi just died for me because i simply don't like to play melee and if ever MM or BM will be bad in dps i will simply switch to some other ranged class.

[Ehuehuecopter]

"trap never really that important"

wow

[Ifritlol]

I think that what should have happened long ago is a separation between PvE and PvP treads/discussions. People try to bring arguments, but they are really talking about different games, which are Raiding and PvP Arena.

[metzger84]

Explosive trap was dealing terrible damage anyway, and won't be missed in PvE

What made explosive trap useful was when used as a knockback, which could be used to either stack adds for a cleave, or moving them away from the group, e.g. Dread Infernals in Mannoroth fight. This requires thinking a bit outside the box, which is difficult for some people, including the class designers, who apparently don't play the classes to this degree.

[Mahmeya]

Still, it was needed to create a glyph to completely change the point of an ability (Explosive trap) to turn it from completely useless to at least situational.

[Eapoe]

What made explosive trap useful was when used as a knockback, which could be used to either stack adds for a cleave, or moving them away from the group, e.g. Dread Infernals in Mannoroth fight. This requires thinking a bit outside the box, which is difficult for some people, including the class designers, who apparently don't play the classes to this degree.

As a hunter, ive never had to use traps for any of the reasons previously mentioned. We always had a DK for grips or one of our boomkins just used their knockback, or we just avoided standing next to them. More often then not we get chewed out by our raid members of we use this glyph because it can be unpredictable or spread mobs out instead of knocking them to a general area. For damage, it's pretty useless. I won't miss it personally, but can understand if you have come to rely on it or your raid has, but I've never found it useful for raid utility. I will miss the ice trap though mythic+ for higher difficulties if they are not immune to them.

[Deleted]

"trap never really that important"

wow

In current terms, they weren't that important, they were helpful unless group x didn't provide y.

But if your groups didn't have dks, locks and boomkins who are much more consistant, then you probably wouldn't get far in HFC anyway.

They used to be much more important in Cataclysm, where hunters had to kite on nearly 2-3 bosses per tier.
(hc chogall, hc conclave (the life adds boss thing), hc maloriak, hc nefarian, hc that worm thing and so on).

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As a hunter, ive never had to use traps for any of the reasons previously mentioned. We always had a DK for grips or one of our boomkins just used their knockback, or we just avoided standing next to them. More often then not we get chewed out by our raid members of we use this glyph because it can be unpredictable or spread mobs out instead of knocking them to a general area. For damage, it's pretty useless. I won't miss it personally, but can understand if you have come to rely on it or your raid has, but I've never found it useful for raid utility. I will miss the ice trap though mythic+ for higher difficulties if they are not immune to them.

Pretty much this, if your guild has competent raiders, the dks and melee would be gripping/taunting the infernals, before you even get your explosive trap off. And the argument some here have for cms... Explosive trap in cms, when you run with a dk tank nearly 90% of the time, will pretty much always grip the mobs out of binding shot to proc it, so explosive trap isn't really needed either.

And those saying bursting shot isn't as big, it's big enough to proc binding shot, granted you stand close enough to melee.

Though like you said I'll definitely miss ice trap, but I'm fairly sure, it's not going to matter much in the end.

[Donkeywing]

Pretty much this, if your guild has competent raiders, the dks and melee would be gripping/taunting the infernals, before you even get your explosive trap off.

If your guild had competent hunters, then you'd have realised explosive trap was far better than taunts. The whole problem with taunting was that these infernals would remain stationary for a few seconds. It could also be faster than a grip, because you can place your expl trap before they land.. which you can't do with a grip. The effect was instant.

Anyway calling traps ''not that important'' is pointless. No ability is really ''that'' important, with the exception of deterrence. If that's all it takes for an ability to get removed by your logic you might aswell remove feign death aspect of the cheetah and flare. The problem is that you're isolating abilities without taking into consideration the spec as a whole. You can make a very good case/argument to remove any ability in the game if you do that.

[Eapoe]

If your guild had competent hunters, then you'd have realised explosive trap was far better than taunts. The whole problem with taunting was that these infernals would remain stationary for a few seconds. It could also be faster than a grip, because you can place your expl trap before they land.. which you can't do with a grip. The effect was instant.

Anyway calling traps ''not that important'' is pointless. No ability is really ''that'' important, with the exception of deterrence. If that's all it takes for an ability to get removed by your logic you might aswell remove feign death aspect of the cheetah and flare. The problem is that you're isolating abilities without taking into consideration the spec as a whole. You can make a very good case/argument to remove any ability in the game if you do that.

I disagree, some abilities are "that important." Raiding mythic and having all the bosses dead, we never used explosive trap for anything. On Mannoroth we had one Hunter use it on Infernals on maybe 4 attempts total, before he was told not to worry about it because it didnt save us anything and cost him a CD for boss damage. I know, 1 GCD! right? Well, on progression where heals are using a CD anyways where we didn't notice the one tick of damage but needed to push boss damage, this helps more than a knockback that isn't needed. On Archimonde, 3 Infernals drop, 1 DK gripped front left, 1 tank taunts front right, Hunter distract to th back. 4 Infernal drop later, add a DK or another Hunter to the mix and we never had an issue separating them.
As far as some abilities being important, stacking DK's for mass grips on Xhul and Manny, a shaman totem on Xhul, some abilities let you have an easier time dealing with or ignoring mechanics all together.

[Bahm]

I used glyphs explosive trap in challenge modes because we didn't have a DK, I used it in PvP, I used it out in the world and in the rare occasion in HFC.

Sure these utility spells weren't necessary when other classes brought a spell that worked better, but it didn't change the fact that I still had a fun spell to use that was occasionally useful. Looking at hotbars for most classes in legion is depressing

[Donkeywing]

The speed of the seperation matters, only taunting them means they remain stationary for a few sec, it should be obvious as to why it was better, and actually very usefull.

Obviously when I said no ability is ''that'' important I ment it for the hunter class. Not dks or shamans. We can go into that but sounds very boring to me.