BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Macaquerie]

The EU doesn't stand for the first two letters in Europe. It stands for European Union. A country can be in Europe (the continent of Europe) yet not in the European Union.

There's no way they picked the name of the EU without intending to make the acronym have that double meaning.

[Mayhem]

There's no way they picked the name of the EU without intending to make the acronym have that double meaning.

Double meaning? Seriously? When someone says european continent it´s save to assume he doesn´t mean the EU.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I wonder, as this is the fifth or sixth thread about it, if I should say it again? A whatever, let's do it: "Shut up and just leave, do what you want, just stop complaining!".

[caervek]

really caervek you said yourself in the above quoted post that russia is the biggest EU country

No I didn't, you can see this by looking at the post of mine you quoted lol.

maybe you should look at your post #249 saying that russia is the largest EUropean country

Russia is the biggest European country, you do understand that not every country in Europe is in the EU right? (and not every EU member is in Europe).

[KyrtF]

But why does the break up of the UK bother you? I'm just curious... is it an objection to all forms of nationalism full stop?

Because the UK is stronger together.
Because the UK is better together.



It's a separate debate, but if the Scots eventually decide they want independence, regardless of the EU issue, why would this be a bad thing?

Only a die-hard dissident Republican or entrenched, bitter Unionist would say that power-sharing has been a failure.

Welcome to reality. There is still a Republican element in NI. They don't have a lot of support but all it might take to change that is for something stupid to happen. The UK probably won't put troops back on the streets but border posts could provide the flashpoint anyway.

As for the Unionists...when Scotland leaves, thats going to incentivise the Nationalists to hold their own referendum. And the Unionist community will not like that. And that will set off the Loyalists.

And who said anything about power sharing failing?

The simple truth is that for all those who say the UK will survive Brexit...it won't.

Because Scotland will Leave....the SNP are NOT lying when they say they'll hold a new referendum. Thats their very reason for existing. The Leave campaign don't want that being talked about.....but the facts are still that voting for Brexit is a vote to destroy the Union.


The UK will survive a vote for Brexit....it'll just die two years later.

Fundamentally, the EU undermines localised democratic process and this is my principal objection to further integration. And even if, as some people have written, they're not going to get it, then member states - specifically Eurozone states - will suffer as a result.

Ahh. You're an anarchist.

Look at the complete mess that's been caused by the inability of individual Eurozone countries to control their own monetary policy and interest rates but without the stability of fiscal/political union. The ECB sets monetary policy for the Eurozone as a whole, even when that policy is completely wrong for some of the member countries. Push up interest rates to bolster economies in France / Germany - result: real estate bubbles in Ireland and Spain. Bubbles collapsed and Ireland and Spain were shafted.

And it is so much better when the Bank of England sets rates to help London and the rest of the UK gets shafted?

You seem to have very little grasp of economics.

And Greece... lol. It joined the Euro in 2001 using fudged budget deficit figures. It's now completely fucked and can't devalue to save itself without defaulting and leaving the EU. If anything sums up the arrogance, head-in-the-sky, wilfully blind and irresponsible optimism of EU politicians, it's Greece joining the Eurozone. It should never have happened and everyone knows it. Merkel herself said so.

Yes...Greece shouldn't have joined. And its in trouble now because of it. But leaving the EU won't save it pain. Its been living on borrowed time and whatever it chose to do, there would be huge economic pain for it. Staying in the EU was likely the least painful choice for everyone.

And for all the worries about stagnation...low growth and lurching from one crisis to the next....

What do you think Brexit will offer the UK? Not forgeting that the EU is actually growing faster than the UK right now.

A generation of economic turmoil...recession...tens of thousands of job losses....inflation and high interest rates...

Hey...the Leave campaign wants the 80s back and that seems likely.

In short...you are full of the usual Leave campaign claptrap willing to place more faith in catchy phrases than actual facts.

I'm considering voting to Leave because I recognise the EU has problems. What makes it difficult is recognising that the EU also does a lot of good...that it balances the extremes of Westminster, though only to a degree and that its flaws don't run anywhere near as deep as the Leave campaign makes out.

That the Leave campaign are relying on lies...fearmongering...racism...xenophobia...to make their case and hide their total lack of answers is disgusting in many ways...but it doesn't change the fact the EU isn't perfect. That it does have problems. And solving those problems will take time and effort and political will that probably doesn't exist.

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I heard Alex Salmond whittering on about this very thing, telling us that a brexit would legitimise a second Scottish independance referendum. Personally, I think Alex is talking out of his arse. The snp won't seek another referendum unless they are sure they will win. With the current state of the North Sea oil industry and the massive loss of jobs and revenue that has brought, the people of Scotland will not be ready to answer the independence question for many years to come.

The SNP will lose nothing by trying.

They will try try and try again because they only need to win once.

All they need is what they've said...an excuse to xall a referendum. That could be a sustained period of majority suppory for exit. Or it could be a material change in circumstances.

Brexit offers both....the EU was a strong factor in persuading Scotland to stay; many didn't want to Leave. But if they are going to be kicked out of the EU anyway....why stay in the UK? And it isn't like the Tories are popular in Scotland.

[Tenris]

The worst part about the referendum is the fact that the word brexit exists....

Remain btw.

[ldev]

You're an island anyways.

[Cosmoz]

Leave. Depressing reading through the comments saying remain, not too surprised though seeing as this is MMO champion.

[Noradin]

Well, you're in a very, very small minority. The average woman/man on the street wouldn't be able to. I'm not (completely) thick and take an active interest in local and international politics and I couldn't have named those voting blocs off the top of my head.

Yes, the average woman/man on the street is able to. Because democracy is a prerequisite for joining the EU.
It is only the UK that is an exeption--as usual--and only them that didn't get to vote because their elected politicans choose not to let them so they could continue the narrative of the undemocratic EU being the source of all that is wrong with the UK. It makes for a great scapegoat.

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The EU does not get to dictate our immigration policy with Commonwealth nations.

The EU does not get to dictate anything anyway.
You have a vote (if you chose to use it), remember?

[Lollis]

Remain.

People who think that leaving the EU will allow us to get better trade deals with the likes of USA, China, India, are delusional.

[Reklia]

Exactly that is what being European means. Embrace the diversity, don't shy away from it and isolate yourself in your British bubble where you can pretend that the Empire still counts for something. Europe is thriving on diversity and that's what it's all about.

You know what I hate about this diversity? When we're told not to do certain things because it might offend one of many foreigners living in our country. I know I've said this before somewhere but its a classic to me, where somewhere in England a guy was told to take his English flag down in case it offended.

[Noradin]

Trolling again, the Netherlands pays MOST to the EU per citizen (not total, average per citizen), 2-3 times as much as other countries per citizen.

Cherrypicking the numbers that look best on your paper does not make them relevant.
You are simply being dishonest, because per citizen The Netherlands have a lot more pull in the EU than Germany (not total, average per citizen, if you chose that metric use it for all numbers you present).

[Lollis]

I know I've said this before somewhere but its a classic to me, where somewhere in England a guy was told to take his English flag down in case it offended.

Likely because people throwing up the St George flag is highly stereotyped as an E.D.L thing to do.

[Noradin]

Netherlands takes as much as Greece (guess your "tiny country" argument turns around and bites you in the ass now huh?), and a lot of countries take more. So much for your "Greece doing the dirty work" argument.

You appear to be colour blind or you cannot identify Greece and The Netherlands on a map.

[Slant]

You know what I hate about this diversity? When we're told not to do certain things because it might offend one of many foreigners living in our country. I know I've said this before somewhere but its a classic to me, where somewhere in England a guy was told to take his English flag down in case it offended.

That has nothing to do with diversity and all with stupidity. Diversity means that they come to England to experience English culture. If anything, put another flag up so they know how the Union Jack looks like! All this offending bullshit swapping over from the US needs to stop. But once Britain is out the EU, they'll just increase the influx of American influence, I'll wager. Good luck with that.

I guess continental Europe is somewhat protected from that effect, since most of our people don't follow US media due to the language barrier. I pity you guys for having to endure English in this case.

[Noradin]

do uhave a crystal ball that sees into the future

Those usually reflect the face of whoever is looking into them.

[Pua]

I just don't know.

There are too many things that are uncertain because neither side of the argument wants to present any actual facts about the issue, and are both being led by dishonest, unscrupulous, class war-mongering twats. I'm deeply uncomfortable with the presentation of Hobson's choice between two camps of the political elite who lie to people they don't give a shit about in order to further their own personal agenda.

[Noradin]

Recommendations from non-brits are really really unwarranted.

"I want to stay ignorant! If you do not share my delusions don't tell me."

Remember how the leave fraction promised everyone what the USA would do for the UK if only they left the EU?
Remember how they were upset when Obama refuted them? How they told him to keep out of their internal discussions?

Why is it that you think you can speak for others and then get upset when they set you right?

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There won't be a trade agreement between Britain and individual countries. There would be a trade agreement between Britain and the EU. I wonder if Britains even realise how the EU works for someone not in the EU. You can't just say "Oh, Germany, please let us not pay customs between our two countries!" because Germany doesn't have the authority to do that on their own. It'll be refered to the EU, they make those kind of trade negotiations.

Well, they do have the authority, but they will choose the EU over the UK.
Why stab your allies in the back for a stranger who is known to back out of his agreements? That would be stupid.

[Mehrunes]

Fundamentally, the EU undermines localised democratic process and this is my principal objection to further integration.

How does it do that again?

yeah and in the PAST we was a happier country, we joined the EU for trade mainly but now we pay more into the EU than we get out of it, just look at all these remainers so deluded that alot of tax payers money goes towards paying the EU, if we do end up staying and the shit hits the fan we can blame all the remainers and the tories.

Yeah, "mainly". But not just about trade anymore. Not when UK joined. And it was heading only towards more and more political organization. Which UK knew when they joined. And they agreed with after they joined. In 1979 first elections to European Parliament. If political organizations trigger you so much, you should have left then. In 1986 Single European Act that, among other things, extended the legislative power of EC. Could have left then. And in 1992 Maastricht Treaty created the European Union. Definitely should have left then if political organizations are the devil.

And weirdly enough, when you joined you got paid even less because the financing of member states by the EC didn't really exist back then. As such, it's not that hard to guess that the benefits UK received were not in form of direct payments. But lack of trade tariffs alone was a benefit. Common market was a benefit. And such is the case now :O Mind = blown. And last I checked, not only do citizens of all member states pay taxes for the support of the European Union, but UK isn't even anywhere near the top when in comes to viewing the contributions by percentage of the GDP. Hell, because of it's special snowflake syndrome (that UK doesn't deserve in the slightest), they have their very own, special snowflake rebate.

[Kalis]

You know what I hate about this diversity? When we're told not to do certain things because it might offend one of many foreigners living in our country. I know I've said this before somewhere but its a classic to me, where somewhere in England a guy was told to take his English flag down in case it offended.

That is most likely a Labour council and has nothing to do with offending people from the EU.

If a Polish person saw you hang a flag of St George he would knock on your door and ask if you wanted a flag pole made for it.