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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Dungeon Journal showed a mythic version for Kazzak loot as well or something though right?

    I don't know, you all might be right. I'd just rather see official confirmation before starting another round "wtf are they thinking" :S
    Well... I had the effect trigger for me first hand so it is at least included for world bosses. I assume the rest will work on the same system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    I understand what they're trying to do here, but I sincerely doubt that it's going to work. The idea is to make the entire game remain rewarding for as long as possible, and those who just play the game will generally do quite well.

    Sadly, that's not how players approach World of Warcraft. The game isn't rewarding any more, players simply chase rewards. And when you put those rewards behind a wall that can't be lowered? Well, frustration ensues.

    Honestly, I can't really see this turning out very well.
    I would have to agree. I raid mythic pretty high up in the rankings and people are never excited to get warforged or a gem. Them simply get disappointed when they don't get it and get stuck with the "crappy" version till rerolls start.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidget View Post
    D2 still had better itemization if I remember correctly. A badly rolled Buriza was still a very good item, in D3 a badly rolled item is pretty much crap unless it's a part of a set.

    I'm not a big fan of massive amounts of RNG. I'd rather have the drop chances lowered and chances of the item being good higher when the item finally drops. But it's a difficult to find that perfect balance between feeling that stuff never drops and the feeling that everything that drops is crap.

    Vanilla WoW for example was bit excessive in one direction where you hade like 2 drops per boss for a raid of 40 people. Chances were you wouldn't complete your set at all if you were playing a popular class.

    Another thing to consider is the loot table of a certain boss. If it has very few items in its loot table items may be perceived to be easy to get and if it has too many it'll feel like your item will never drop. I wasn't a big fan of the shared loot tables in WOD dungeons where pretty much any boss could drop certain items since it made those items feel less special and you couldn't really farm for them without doing all the bosses in every dungeon. I hope this is something that goes away in Legion.
    Nah, play D2 before the expansion, only normal mode items had unique versions. Stone of Jordon, Frostburn gloves still treasured items at upper levels but once you were doing Nightmare or Hell in classic D2 everything you relied on loot wise was rares. It wasn't uncommon for people to save up 3 of their act 1 quest forging to roll a lance for a WW barbarian. That enhanced damage meant everything and leach was mandatory. At least in WoW not all the stats are random. If your warrior gloves could randomly roll spirit on them I think it would be a justifiable complaint but if you get Gloves of X in a raid then you know what you will 'at least' get.

    Though from WoD I totally wish I got leach on everything but none the less the idea is some of the stats are just bonuses. Increased item level is pretty sweet too however if you are doing a raid to get Gloves of X +Y ilvl, to upgrade your Gloves of X then it seems like you are just nitpicking because you didn't get the best item ever. Truth be told I would like to see the Valor system allow a reroll, say you spend 300 valor and it can reroll an item to get the boosted ilvl. Adds a tiny bit or risk for reward incentivizing weekly valor farming and what not. And if you already have +60 ilvl to something and reroll it well nothing wrong with it dropping only to +1- because you got greedy and rolled the dice.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redtower View Post
    I would have to agree. I raid mythic pretty high up in the rankings and people are never excited to get warforged or a gem. Them simply get disappointed when they don't get it and get stuck with the "crappy" version till rerolls start.
    This is why I tenuously support gear randomization - as things stand, players consider anything that isn't their best in slot to be "junk". It was one of the main reasons I stopped raid leading (and raiding) all the way back during the Throne of Thunder. Our warlock wouldn't take Breath of the Hydra because she didn't want to suicide before getting the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen.

    Breath of the Hydra, a perfectly good trinket, then ended up given to our offspec druid... Something that upset our Shadow priest who was missing that night, and wanted to know what the fuck was going on upon her return.

    Player approach to gear is toxic in too many cases. It really needs dealt with, which Blizzard are trying, but this is more likely to exasperate the problem.

  4. #24
    More RNG... Not a fan.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    This is why I tenuously support gear randomization - as things stand, players consider anything that isn't their best in slot to be "junk". It was one of the main reasons I stopped raid leading (and raiding) all the way back during the Throne of Thunder. Our warlock wouldn't take Breath of the Hydra because she didn't want to suicide before getting the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen.

    Breath of the Hydra, a perfectly good trinket, then ended up given to our offspec druid... Something that upset our Shadow priest who was missing that night, and wanted to know what the fuck was going on upon her return.

    Player approach to gear is toxic in too many cases. It really needs dealt with, which Blizzard are trying, but this is more likely to exasperate the problem.
    Agreed we had our first argument over loot in 6 years in our guild over warforged loot.. We had two mages both good but one was slightly better the problem was M archie. The slightly worse mage had almost every slot warforged or with a gem and a couple with both. The other mage had barely any warforged. Since the fight relies so heavily on your opening burst to kill the add we had to sit the better of the two mages. Even the other mage wasn't happy but to meet that check we simply didn't have a choice. It was that or farm more missing loot from the upper bosses.

    I miss when loot was just loot.

  6. #26
    That's pretty cool, it's similar to the Diablo 3 design where an item level is less finite; which means more interest, more engagement and more farming (which is either good or bad) with loot.

    Do you need Titanforged? No. Every world #100 guild will complete their goals without the majority of raiders kitted out in Titanforged, but for everyone with more time to farm/RNG/luck there will always be Titanforged -a soft buffer, and an added flavour of interest to whatever is the previous Tier --these are all good things.

    Don't like the time/effort involved? Then maybe WoW just isn't for you; WoW has always been reciprocal: meaning you get back what you put it. The Titanforged will just be another element of RNG that benefits both the lucky ones but mostly the players that clear as much as possible -and that is fine.

    Deal with it, or leave it.

    PS, Diablo loot is very fluid... we're seeing WoW loot become more interesting -that is a good thing!
    Last edited by risingforce; 2016-06-01 at 08:55 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gcsmith View Post
    Yeah, but even with the WOD model, we didn't have a 75 difference between mythic Highmaul and Mythic HFC. In other words, any 75 TItanforged mythic raid gear from Nighthold will almost last the whole expansion
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure titanforge caps at mythic ilvl which is 875. So the higher the base ilvl of an item, the lower the titanforge range. An 800 item has a chance of getting a full titanforged +5-75, while an 850 would go from 5-25. Id guess mythic loot cant be titanforged since it is already 875, but it can be warforged.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redtower View Post
    I miss when loot was just loot.
    Quote Originally Posted by risingforce View Post
    Diablo loot > WoW loot, any day.
    "Loot being loot" is a decent enough desire, and I also prefer Diablo looting over Warcraft looting (for several reasons). The problem, of course, is that it just doesn't work in a competitive raiding environment. At that level, no encounter can be made hard enough for the top players, and this essentially means that the top guilds are hoping to get lucky in order to get enough gear to manage, or brute-force, a mechanic that's designed to kill them at that gear level.

    The best example of this was the Spine of Deathwing. A lot of people kicked up a fuss when the tentacles were nerfed, but I actually agreed with the decision; it's not fun to be held up by virtue of your gear rather than your skill.

    Much less of a problem in content that's not raiding, obviously. In a way, this is potentially another argument for raiding being pulled back in line with other forms of content, rather than being considered the sole "prestige" stuff on offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure titanforge caps at mythic ilvl which is 875. So the higher the base ilvl of an item, the lower the titanforge range. An 800 item has a chance of getting a full titanforged +5-75, while an 850 would go from 5-25. Id guess mythic loot cant be titanforged since it is already 875, but it can be warforged.
    That's how I understand it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Yeah. Unbelievable. Let's pour gasoline into the fire.... -.-

    Edit: Knowing where your loot pieces drop and which quality and stats they will have was one of the most important reasons for me to love WoW and to hate Diablo with its random loot. I understand that randomised gear makes people play longer if they love the hunt for the BiS items. But for people like me, who want to reach some kind of "completeness" with a character, this is a horror scenario. It discourages me to re-run content as soon as I get my minimum item level requirement. I then call it a day and leave group activities altogether. I am not motivated by slot machines, I hate them. We have enough RNG in the game with not knowing, which of the items on a loot list will drop from a boss and if you will get it or not. RNG in various additive item upgrades is disgusting. It's a cheap way to keep people playing, preying on their base instincts.

    Also, they already have a game with such a loot system. People who like it, should go play Diablo. -.-
    All this summarizes my sentiments about this exactly. Wow.

    Also, they WANTED us to give up after getting the minimal item level, because the warforged and titanforged are so rare, we shouldn't even count on them technically. It was supposed to be sprinkles on the cake, even in development, not an end game goal.

    The problem is it's still too common, and so it's still an end game goal. Seeing people with more than three pieces upgraded means its too common, and needs to be nerfed so hard people don't even talk about it.

    Otherwise, in this case, we're going to see people who love to ninja loot and guild hop get retardedly overpowered for abusing player base. Throwing away a whole guild for another titanforged piece of something you actually need is just common sense at this point. Brutal. Add character modifications and you can get away with it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by risingforce View Post
    but for everyone with more time to farm/RNG/luck there will always be Titanforged -a soft buffer, and an added flavour of interest to whatever is the previous Tier
    What the need to do is stop giving us incentives to do crap, as they have been for years now, and start giving us real crap to do, which they've put on hiatus for more than three years total.

    Do they not get this? My guess is they know this but its easier money the way it is now.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Yeah, probably. Heroic dungeon loot also has the potential to be ilvl 900.
    Do you have any actual proof for that? Or do you simply assume that any Titanforged item can go up to 75 iLvls above base?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure titanforge caps at mythic ilvl which is 875. So the higher the base ilvl of an item, the lower the titanforge range. An 800 item has a chance of getting a full titanforged +5-75, while an 850 would go from 5-25. Id guess mythic loot cant be titanforged since it is already 875, but it can be warforged.
    where do you take the information that mythic(raid) base ilvl will be 875?, nomral mode starts at 850+ according to dungeon jurnal, heroic and mythic have placeholders ilvls.

    What i saw till now:

    - worldquest 835+ procced into 870 titanforged
    - world boss loot, titanforged 880
    - mythic titanforged 885 and 890, but dont know if aquired in mythic dungeon or in a mythic+ dungeon.

    yeah it will be intersting to see how this all will work out. we have to wait till they open raids, all those raids have the "+" tech attached in dungeon journal. additionally HFC has this "+" attached too, maybe we will see this coming prepatch on live.

    Rakrath

  12. #32
    Diablo loot styled systems work in Diablo styled games because you can literally sit there and farm for as long as you want as many times as you want. In games such as WoW, you generally get one chance per week.

  13. #33
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    it will introduce tones of repeatability but the biggest bummer is... DPS difference, i'm actually right now 100% SURE that some specs will be bottom and some will be top and the difference will be like now 40% and people will quit playing because artifact grind + reroll is too much for something that can change with next patch.

    So yeah... future looks shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phototropic View Post
    Diablo loot styled systems work in Diablo styled games because you can literally sit there and farm for as long as you want as many times as you want. In games such as WoW, you generally get one chance per week.
    I think someone in blizzard thinks this will extend life of the game, but reality is it will cut players faster than lightning. Without system to earn currency and buy items you want burnout of rng would be shit. But with system to buy shit you want to have this system is good as it is only a cherry on top if you win it.

  14. #34
    I think this will push more people into small group content, as my guild is already planning to. Raiding will be there to get tier and possibly trinkets, but you can grind in 5-mans until the cows come how to fill out the rest of your gear.

    I think the warforged/titanforged mechanic sells well because of that unknown factor anytime a piece of loot drops, and the surprise of getting something really awesome out of it is fun.

    Mythic raiders will now be doing mythic raids for basically no other reason than to say they did it. As far as gear goes (from what we know now), if you have a lot of time to invest in 5-man grinding, you can keep up with the cool crowd in ilevel.

  15. #35
    Yes we know diablo 2 was great, but can we now please stop talking about diablo 2 in a topic about the warforged/titanforged item drops in WoW.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aviemore View Post
    "Loot being loot" is a decent enough desire, and I also prefer Diablo looting over Warcraft looting (for several reasons). The problem, of course, is that it just doesn't work in a competitive raiding environment. At that level, no encounter can be made hard enough for the top players, and this essentially means that the top guilds are hoping to get lucky in order to get enough gear to manage, or brute-force, a mechanic that's designed to kill them at that gear level.

    The best example of this was the Spine of Deathwing. A lot of people kicked up a fuss when the tentacles were nerfed, but I actually agreed with the decision; it's not fun to be held up by virtue of your gear rather than your skill.
    Or, the opposite: raiding is tuned very finely to the higher skill caps, and the Titanforged perks act as a soft buffer for the non-elite echelons to catch up. I don't imagine that will be the case, but whilst your postulation is as good as mine I think [with the advent of Titanforged] that we should assume Raiding will be tuned a little closer to the elite end of the spectrum -with the Titanforged RNG acting as a buffer to those that need it... which also gets away from the need of nerfs over time etc.

    But do we even know how Titanforged works? Maybe it is a lot rarer/harder to obtain than we are currently speculating.

  17. #37
    I miss looking at boss loot drops and planning my gear out. KNowing how much hit/block/defense/dodge/parry/crit/haste etc... I needed to CAP or hit the next level of performance.

    Now an otherwise shitty drop from the first boss can be 45 iLevels higher than my BiS "regular" piece from the last. RNG in gear (including crafting) is bullshit for an mmo.

  18. #38
    RNG on top of RNG combined with massive ilvl inflation. Why does Blizzard make the same mistakes over and over?

  19. #39
    As a current LFR/crafting/dungeon "scrub", I like the idea of RNG loot like this because I always have a chance at a big upgrade; as a former dedicated raider, however, I also appreciate the "plan your gear" aspect of things and how it was far easier in the past to plan how to "win" the game for your character by acquiring the best of the best.

  20. #40
    And this is where the system needs an overhaul. No more random sockets and random ilvl increases (random tertiary stats are fine since most of them are pretty bad anyways). Instead, set the number of sockets once again, but no more socket bonuses so gems feel a little less mandatory (still provides a stat increase from the gem itself for those who love to min-max). Instead of Warforged and Titanforged, items have the same chance to upgrade to the next tier of difficulty (a normal item becomes a heroic item for example). For questing, it would be a level or two bump in stats but without the level requirement (if any) increasing.

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