Are nightborne blizzards relief aid to the night elves?

[Rhlor]

Never gonna happen, they'd completely self-destruct before ever joining Horde.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e9LTjYiRJw&t=1721s

28:40

[Shelly]

1) Don't worry about snipping. It's ok, we covered a lot.

2) Wall of text crits you for OVER 9000!

3) I will admit that I haven't played the beta yet and there's still a lot for me to find out and enjoy. That being said the influences are extremely pronounced and specific, so there's no shame in referencing the Drow - they have fucking Driders for god's sake. As well as the far more enjoyable Moorcock influence that both make clear that you are fighting a civilization in decay.

4) I'm not drawing conclusions about the Kal'Dorei origins, I'm basing it on their representation in game and their in game history. The vestiges of elven civilization from prior to the sundering are almost completely divorced from the current civilization of the Kal'Dorei and it is by choice. They are functionally incompatible with any other civilization that may share the same root and as such would not welcome with open arms a bunch of drug-addicts, as is they have enough problems with just absorbing Gilneans into the populace and learning them some druid.

Either way the Azsharan craziness is in the makeup of the elven societies. There is NO getting around it.

You see it in Staghelm's corruption as he attempted to reclaim Nelf immortality and youth. You see it in the corruption of Illidan, the corruption of Kael'Thas, the corruption of the high-magister-imperatrix whatever of the Nightborne and it's definitely there in the prince of the Shen'Drelar who is sacrificing his people in order to hold onto their version of immortality.

The fact is that each elven group has maintained their identity as it was under the reign of Azshara. The Kal'Dorei went off and f'd off into the woods and their aesthetic training. The Naga remained a cult of personality based around the queen. The Sin'dorei/High Elves who were akin to the upper middle class were exiled and wandered to the eastern kingdoms where they founded a civilization based on the same regal hierarchy as the old system and attempted to recreate their civilization based around a new much less-powerful magic lake called the sunwell. Now we have the Nightborne whom are more of the hierarchy of the original elven civilization that have followed the exact same route as the Sin'Dorei with a simple exception of putting up a magical bubble around their "utopia" to keep the rabble out. In this way I'd say they are closer to a bridge between the highmaul elves and the blood elves.

Basically they are what the blood elves would be if they hadn't needed the human clans to destroy the troll empire for safety.

As for the highmaul elves being kaldorei, well, yeah. They are basically another 10,000 year old untouched genetic stock. No kids and no changes. Just scared elves trapped in their city with an enslaved demon watching it all slowly go to hell.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and as someone whom has read the Silmarillion several times there's not really an equivalence between Tolkien elves and Warcraft elves outside of the fact that they both can grow beards.

Hell, under Tolkien rules I'd actually have to classify any non-kaldorei as an Orc.

[ravenmoon]

2) Wall of text crits you for OVER 9000!

totally we write too much, but it's so rare, i love it when people take the time to write loads and share their thoughts even if i don't always agree. It's one of the reasons i like these forums more than most of the others when it comes to wow. My friend and I use to spend so much time talking about wow, and sometimes those would spill onto the forums, but it's nice actually to come on and see something new to think about or respond too.

3) I will admit that I haven't played the beta yet and there's still a lot for me to find out and enjoy. That being said the influences are extremely pronounced and specific, so there's no shame in referencing the Drow - they have fucking Driders for god's sake. As well as the far more enjoyable Moorcock influence that both make clear that you are fighting a civilization in decay.

funny, despite it's own uniqueness, everything in wow is primarily influenced from something else that's popular I've noticed.

Metzen's taken his favourite things, then thrown them in here and done his own thing with them. I think the night elves are modelled after the drow, but like all other things, changed. i haven't read Morocock's, but it sounds like the image of night elf society just before the sundering, that fell into decay.

I, playing the beta, and going through so many of the quests specific to this, really feel the nightborne are not a society in decay at all, however they have elements of that, they are showing the pre-sundering side of night elf society, but it's also not exactly the same as the decadent period. If you read the lore books, and you compare, Azshara's final years had night elf society pretty decadent, in a way that there are hints of in nightborne society, but it's far less so. And that has to do with the story.

When I played it through, I got to really see and get a good feeling about what Malfurion found disgusting about what had become of the night elves, but it wasn't widespread like there, those who had given in to the legion, had some behaving really badly, however not all of them were like that either. Someone referred to it as the good, the bad and the ugly.

I think most conclude it has enough of its own uniqueness story wise, though the art assets have that influence. Which is night elven influence - kinda like the darker side of the night elves, but not necessarily evil, it reminds you of our society a lot, where you have some of the elite flirting with incredible darkness and rather than rising up to formidably stand against it, give in out of fear of losing their comfort. You like want to scream at them and shake them, this is the legion!! Fortunately it's not widespread like Azshara's day, it can't be unless you want to destroy all the nightborne, because this has happened before, and the nightborne were a group of night elves that fought this very thing. Here is what the dungeon journal says of the night hold and Ellisandre.



This isn't decadent, there are those who are, ofc, but it's a minority. Even the "corruption" thing, it's not a corruption of the soul or mind, but it's one of the body only happening when you stop feeding on the nightwell. Again, this is not over-indulgent either, and this is made so clear when you do the quests in the city, these aren't like the sin'dorei in their dark period over gorging on magical energy or like Azshara recklessly over doing it - blizzard doens't seem to be making them all out evil at all, these guys need to feed on the nightwell to survive, not over-indulge. There is no hint or mention of over-indulgence in the quests nor that that is what the people do. You would have take the splendour of Suramar and accuse them of being over-indulgent just because it's pretty.

4) I'm not drawing conclusions about the Kal'Dorei origins, I'm basing it on their representation in game and their in game history. The vestiges of elven civilization from prior to the sundering are almost completely divorced from the current civilization of the Kal'Dorei and it is by choice.

Correct, however that doesn't make the prior civilization any less Kal'dorei than the current one. They are both kal'dorei. The Quel'dorei of Eldre'thalas follow the same tradition. They both have more elements of corruption in them, the Quel'dorei one moreso than the Shal'dorei one, but not for the same reasons and not in the same way. Shal'dorei recently have their leaders becoming corrupt from legion take over. It is being compared to the Nazi take over of Paris in WW2.

They surrendered, some of the French rulers got in bed with the nazis, others fought, indications prior to the Legion invasion is that they weren't any more or less corrupt than your average society and actually were quite well ruled, this is not like Azshara's reign.

So ultimately you see a different side of Kal'dorei in the Shal'dorei as you did in the Quel'dorei of Eldre'thalas, but it's all Kal'dorei. Main Kal'dorei group "we follow a different way now" Quel & Shal'dorei kal'dorei group "we continued in the old ways (minus the harmful recklessness that characterized the very last stages)". If Kal'dorei was a map pie chart, main kal'dorei would have a section saying nature/arcane absent lifestyle and the rest of the pie chart have Shal'dorei and Quel'dorei arcane nightwell based, arcane Immol'thar based. But, that's just an image of how they all start off, each group changes once the narrative has set their current situation. Things have changed for the main Kal'dorei since, no longer arcane restricted. Things have changed for the Quel'dorei Kal'dorei, no longer fuelled by Immol'thar. Things start changing for the Shal'dorei as soon as legion begins, with the arrival of Gul'dan and the occupation, things are going to keep changing for the nightborne after this. We are going to kill all the ones who allied with the Legion. I don't know if Suramar will survive, or the nightwell, but my bet is for the resistance leader and the nightborne she inspires and night elves helping her will triumph. What this would mean is they'll be ruled by a noble and corrupt free (corruption of the soul that is) group, and will change for the better, likely eliminating their corrupt elements, but remaining the nobler version of the pre-sundering night elf society.

You have to remember, before Azshara lost it, pre-sundering night elven society was quite noble and advanced. Her power and skill got to her head, but some might only tend to associate high civilziation with corruption, that's not always the case. so we are presented with a situation where some are corrupt some are not, and the quest is to save a city and a people by removing the corrupt elements.

They are functionally incompatible with any other civilization that may share the same root and as such would not welcome with open arms a bunch of drug-addicts, as is they have enough problems with just absorbing Gilneans into the populace and learning them some druid.

They don't have to be compatible to be allies and part of the same nation, and whether they are or not, they are part of the same people group regardless.

They are not drug-addicts either, that's not the situation here as I explained above. Blizzard aren't playing that card here. They have a corruption issue, but it's a different kind, one you won't hate them for, but rather pity and try to help them. It's not like Azshara, at all.

Think of it like the Dwarves. The Wildhammaer are very different society to the Bronzebeards and also quite different to the Dark Irons. The only thing they have in common is that they are Dwarves and they have penchant for the earth. Even united, they are separate and distinct, though they have a council that makes decisions that affect their military actions, but not their way of life. The wildhammer life is very different from the Bronzebeard also quite different from the Dark Iron. It is the same for the Night Elven group. You look at their societies, Kal'dorei, and Quel/Shal'dorei all they have in common is that they are night elves and have a penchant for beauty perfection, they are what they are, the Shal'dorei would continue to be based in their city, probably alongside the Broken Isle night elves, the Quel'dorei will continue to work on fixing their city and live their lives, and the Kal'dorei would in their own city. Sure Quel'dorei and Shal'dorei and Kal'dorei would lend their might to each other, you see Quel'dorei teaching Kal'dorei who've just started using magic again, that will continue with the Shal'dorei too and just like when the night elves fought in WC3, you got the Cenarions also joining in, so they will fight together, but outside military matters they'll continue their separate ways.

You get the very wood nymph/elf-like Cenarians living quite separate from the Kal'dorei as you will the Shal'dorei. We know like the Gilneans in Darnassus, the Quel'dorei are taking refuge there while both groups try to claim their city back we see Genn already back in Stormwind by the end of Cataclysm, and still focused on reclaiming Gilneas, we see Estulan determined to remove Totheldrin and the demon Immol'thar and restore Eldre'thalas. We see some night elves taking refuge with Thalyssra the shal'dorei, when we help them win their city back, you can be sure that the broken isles night elves will be with their ancient nightborne kin (the good ones) in the city, working together to restore their homes. Their society would be and continue to be distinct from Kal'dorei and similar but different to Quel'dorei whether they are official allies, or just friendly with each others.

Either way the Azsharan craziness is in the makeup of the elven societies. There is NO getting around it.

Are you sure it's not sounding like you're trying to make it that when the narrative is really saying something different? Azshara's craziness is not a unique thing, it is the sympton of what can happen when you go out of balance.. IT has characterized all evlen usage of magic, and you find out every society shown since does not repeat the same mistake. not the nightborne, not the highborne, not the high elves. Only the blood elves for that short period did. The others had different issues, a bit similar you can say, because some sort of arcane misery occured, but they were all different. High elves gain arcane addiction - i made an essay on addiction in another topic - the arcane addiciton of the high elves I conclude is acceptable, you obviously don't want what happened to happen, but hey. The Wretched high/blood elves? that addiction is definitely a problem. The Quel'dorei of Eldre'thalas? Had a demon problem, not fel corruption, no, there's no fel there they were smart enough and skilled enough with the power they were handling but in time it had another affect on them that affected most. And the Shal'dorei - their's seemed perfect, the group that got it right, except the source itself became corrupt and had an unusual effect only noticeable when you don't eat the energy. Remember they have come to use the energy as food. It's not a fix for them, it's a food alternative. They are fine as long as they keep using, but when they stop, like food they starve with a nasty surprise awaiting after the 50+days, mindless state of withered. This ofc, it's how it's supposed to work, and now you see where the corruption is.

What happens when your magic source is polluted or corrupted? whether it's druidic nature magic corrupted by the nightmare, or arcane magic corrupted by necromancy (high elves) or by a flaw (nightborne) or a demon (highborne) -- you fix the flaw. You don't stopo the magic. Not all magic users are evil at all, in fact whether you become evil handling magic is up to you. We have Azshara and her palace highborne as examples of those who became evil, but there are plenty examples of those who did not become evil for using magic.

Night elves know by now, through the uncorrupted hgihborne, draenei, who've used magic for millennia using magic by itself doesn't make you corrupt. Addiction is not corruption either. And whther addiction is acceptable (high elves) or unacceptable (wretched) depends on the situation. Are you addicted to food? you can be, but requiring food (nightborne) doesn't mean you are addicted to it. When is addiction a problem? when you've over done it ofc. Why use the term addiction? often enough when the use of something is unhealthy and undesirable but compels usage regardless, makes you go out of your mind. That's not arcane magic altho in extreme cases it can be, you've just described Fel. Arcane usage is actually good for you, you live longer, you get smarter, you are healthier and it's very pleasurable, which is not a problem unless you over-indulge. harmful substance damages you (fel) and is also extremely addictive (fel) that addiciton is a problem when the effects are damaging. Arcane improves you and is used to do a lot of really good things. and so actually is mis-classified - it' s issue is that it's more tempting to over indulge, and we see some people do so, sometimes some groups.

But the point it becomes a problem is debateable. For the High elves for example, it actually never became a problem. The problem happened when the source was terminated, it's like they came off from a high of super life. You will have problems if your sugar or enhancement substance that improved your lifespan, your health etc was removed. For the nightborne when their food is removed they die, in their case it's not an aaddiction it's a dependency, you won't call yourself addicted to food for needing it now would you. Sure there are those who need it but also over-indulge in it, they can get addicted, but you don't classify everyone as being addicted because they need, only those you can identify as gone overboard, which you don't see in nightborne society.

In pre-sundering society nearthe end, Azshara's group goes overboad. She alsoo makes evil decisions, and those are not because of her magic addiction, WoTA reveals the things that were in her heart, an ugliness she was hiding, and an extreme vanity - years of adulation probably went to her head. It can happen to anybone, and you dont need magic or a substance for that.

Night elves showed you can live without the arcane, ofc you can, they chose too - the reasons were to stop the Legion returning, because using the well for spells could hae that disastrous consequence. Many of them were spell users, but not addicted. Darth'rmears group were, not because they were highborne per say, but because they had been part of the very group of Zin'Azshari elves with Azshara over-using, WotA shows them all being forced to sometimes go days without rest, yeah the arcane can sustain you like that, but it's also quite unhealthy, and very reckless, not that they were given a choice by their Queen and their new masters.

Wht does that say? it tells me the problem concerning magic was not arcane addiction, they didn't stop to avoid arcane addiction, they already knew that merely balancing yourself deals with that. Like food usage, over-indulge, without control, without exercise you get bloated and corrupted - the corruption are the disease you get ... and that's not good, even though food is good for you.


So night elves stop magic not to avoid addiction but to avoid drawing the burning legion. They are aware of addiction and the tendency of Darth'remar's group to go overboard, which is why they didn't listen to him when he said magic usage via the well drawing twisting nether attention can be compensated for in theory - he was right, but they didn't listen because this guy really wants to use the arcane and thinks it's okay to take that risk? not able to trust the man, they don't trust his counsel. Ofc it turns out he was right, but they would take 10k years because of isolation to discover that. No blues about either to set the record straight.

So back to nature magic, so nature magic, quite beneficial, the way Cenarius trained Malfurion to use it, was the way the night elves should have been trainign to use arcane magic, it's the way the high elves get to use arcane. but nature has it's own qualities, totally in harmony with your body, the use requires that. But nature magic is not like the arcane it's specific use is life force based, which means its not an all purpose use like arcane, more focused on restoration, you can use it in ways that damage people like we see with entangling roots, or poisonous spores or even wind hurricane storms caused by powerful trees shaking thier banches to creat the right degree of pressure change. You even can tap into the more shaman elemental zzone of speaking tot he very rocks or air.
Nature magic did not give the night elves immortality, , using the arcane well of eternity did, but post sundering they chose not to, but were gifted by the Dragonflights to be able to continue their task.

You see, nature magic was sufficient for the task, arcane though pure, had a stigma after seeing the devastation it caused, these are factors that help living without it bearable, does not mean they believed it was better to because of addiction potential or corruption potential, or devastation potential, everyone knows that addiciton, corruption and devastation are all avoidable it's down to the individual and down to how you use. The over-riding factor was using the Well will call back the demons and after barely escaping once and left on the brink as it was, the world would not survive another attack, and not only that, the millions of Elves they killed, not the sundering killed, the demons killed cos they marched through the cities murdering and slaughtering, the death toll their presence and actions would inflict, the corruption to flora and fauna alike, that was unacceptable. This was the chief deterrent.

I find that since coming out of their isolation all the other worries, both demon related and addiction and corruption related are available to them now. WItht he backdrop of up to 10k years to measure by in the highborne, and 25k years in the Draenei. With usage no longer being regarded as an absolute harbinger of destruction, right perspective returns. The arcane itself is not corrupt, it's actually good, but it comes with risks and requires discipline, the good news is that it's totally doable, and you have a society of night elves in the Highborne and the nightborne to ensure you stay on the right track.

It's not full proof in avoiding corruption or addiction, but neither is nature magic, in fact, the nightmare shows that nature magic expertise is even more dangerous if corrupted, but you don't avoid the arcane or nature becasue it can be corrupted, nor do you avoid food or nice things that aren't harmful to you (in right proportions) because they can get corrupted. No, when corruption happens you deal with it, you remove the source of it and you cleanse/heal the damage. The more valuable the affected thing or person is, the harder you try to sort it out. You don't want to destroy the nightwell, because of the incredible useful and powerful source it can be both for rebuilding your people beyond the city walls and your kin, and also a powerful weapon against the legion and future attacks. The night elves won't want to make that mistake again, like they did with the Well of Eternity that is now gone Further destoy the many many lives (million? 100s of thousands, 10s of thousands) of the lives of the nightborne you just saved. Like the high elf situation you don't wnat that to happen here, and for them it's worse, they'll die. While you want to fix that part of it, and you're concerned about addiction, you don't want to destroy a source just based on that, you want balance occuring.

I tihnk for all its amazing benefits, they should never be able to solve the arcane addiction possibility of arcane usage. Because of the nature of the magic. The magic is life enhancing and empowering too, and highly beneficial, dependancy is acceptable as the benefits far outweigh the costs. Corruption and over-indulgence is undesirable though, so the first must be avoided completely and the second diligently watched for.

Now not all night elves are going to pick that up. I see or can imagine, only some night elves choosing to join the majority of nightborne and likely some highborne being suffused with the nightwell. The moonwells are used by all night elves and they are all from the waters of the Well of Eternity, their power suffuses them, but they don't use it. Now the well is gone, but the nightwell remains. The night elves with the nightborne on the broken isles, will undobutedly continue to rely on that source one its cleansed, other night elves may, but it would be on an individual basis, I feel the Shen'drelar will too as well, but the Darnassus group won't, there's just enough of the well of eternity around to conitnue lifestyle without arcane usage, and the druids and priests will contineu in their discipline, sure they'll be mages amongst them, of their kind, nightwell attuned, but their community would be largely free not because of hate or fear, but just because that's how most citizens already live like.

So in conclusion, the two societies dont have to mix, in fact, whenever we get sub-races even when they allly, the two groups never mix, sure the largest city often becomes a centre with all the different ggroups and foreigners too, like I imagine in the lore Suramar will become again the centrestage of the night elven group, but Darnassian Elves will be their own distinct group, Shen'drelar will be more like the nightborne, and the Shalassian society would be it's own thing. Think Dwarves - and the 3 groups, distinct each having and retaining their own uniqueness, lands and customs, but united... allies. Afterall isn't that how the alliance and horde work? All the races are different peoples entirely, they don't even have the shared bond of being night elves, yet they are allies and being allies doesn't mean that forsaken are becoming like blood elves or trolls or tauren or orcs or goblins.

[Beloren]

So ultimately you see a different side of Kal'dorei in the Shal'dorei as you did in the Quel'dorei of Eldre'thalas, but it's all Kal'dorei. Main Kal'dorei group "we follow a different way now" Quel & Shal'dorei kal'dorei group "we continued in the old ways (minus the harmful recklessness that characterized the very last stages)". If Kal'dorei was a map pie chart, main kal'dorei would have a section saying nature/arcane absent lifestyle and the rest of the pie chart have Shal'dorei and Quel'dorei arcane nightwell based, arcane Immol'thar based. But, that's just an image of how they all start off, each group changes once the narrative has set their current situation....

Think of it like the Dwarves. The Wildhammaer are very different society to the Bronzebeards and also quite different to the Dark Irons. The only thing they have in common is that they are Dwarves and they have penchant for the earth. Even united, they are separate and distinct, though they have a council that makes decisions that affect their military actions, but not their way of life. The wildhammer life is very different from the Bronzebeard also quite different from the Dark Iron. It is the same for the Night Elven group. You look at their societies, Kal'dorei, and Quel/Shal'dorei all they have in common is that they are night elves and have a penchant for beauty perfection, they are what they are, the Shal'dorei would continue to be based in their city, probably alongside the Broken Isle night elves, the Quel'dorei will continue to work on fixing their city and live their lives, and the Kal'dorei would in their own city. Sure Quel'dorei and Shal'dorei and Kal'dorei would lend their might to each other, you see Quel'dorei teaching Kal'dorei who've just started using magic again, that will continue with the Shal'dorei too and just like when the night elves fought in WC3, you got the Cenarions also joining in, so they will fight together, but outside military matters they'll continue their separate ways.

I can see how this makes the High elves a different group, even though they're came from Kal'dorei.

[ravenmoon]

I can see how this makes the High elves a different group, even though they're came from Kal'dorei.

exactly. Normal Night elves changed their society, but they remained night elves physically too so we can't say they're not night elves. Nightborne did not change their society at all, it is still night elven contd (without the evil/reckless bits - there was much more to pre-sundering night elven society than Azshara's end-time reckless actions), even though their bodies changed a little. Blood elf group, they changed their society and themselves physically to a far greater degree than anything of their past. Whereas the nightborne appearance is very close to the normal night elf, the blood elf one is not (but it's still elven - just not night elven)


The night elf group and blood elf group are like the humans and forsaken - forsaken changed both appearance and culture so though human we consider them different enough.

normal night elves and nightborne are more like humans and worgens or Wildhammers and Dark Irons - the same race but slightly altered, different cultures too, one changed their culture but not their race NElf), the other changed their race a little (not enough to be completely different) but not their culture. (nightborne)

Hence why nightborne is easily seen as a sub-group of night elves and not a totally different group. It's like mechagnomes and gnomes, or dark irons and bronze beards, or Forest Trolls and Jungle Trolls - different appearances and different looks - but still common enough. It matters that the nightborne are pre-sundering night elves continuing on. The blood elves started a new society from scratch, one light based, sun and day based too. So therefore are 2 orders of magnitude removed, whereas the nightborne are still night elf based.

[Combatbutler]

exactly. Normal Night elves changed their society, but they remained night elves physically too so we can't say they're not night elves. Nightborne did not change their society at all, it is still night elven contd (without the evil/reckless bits - there was much more to pre-sundering night elven society than Azshara's end-time reckless actions), even though their bodies changed a little. Blood elf group, they changed their society and themselves physically to a far greater degree than anything of their past. Whereas the nightborne appearance is very close to the normal night elf, the blood elf one is not (but it's still elven - just not night elven)

Actually the nightwell changed them into a different race, they are no longer night elves. That is explicitly stated in the chronicle, it is true they kept the original highborne night elf culture, but the modern night elves renounce most of said culture even after readmitting the shen'dralar into their society. They are social outcasts with their arcane capabilities strictly regulated by Night elven society, it is very doubtful the nighborne would be willing to accept such shackles, nor can I see them accepting Malfurion or Tyrande as leaders of their people.

[Beloren]

Do you have a source for that? Never seen night elf restricting Highborne. And yes, I don't see nightborne accepting any such shackles, if the Western Kalimdor group insist but they are still a night elf based group.

What I see happening is two nations for the night elf group. One of Western Kalimdor, Tyrande/Mal led, the other was Broken Isle group Nightborne majority with the other night elves of the isle since they are already helping each other.

West Kalimdor Group based on the current Long Vigil culture w/I the arcane ban
Broken Isle group based on the pre-sundering culture w/I the Azshara craziness, prob led by Illidan or Thalyssra

They are allied but not one Kingdom. Both groups have all the night elf classes. Except Broken isle group has warlocks excl to a nightborne toon instead of DKs.

All DHs will be Briken Isle group NElves, but diesnt matter since they are allied and you don't start in Teldrassil.

Also I find it silly with Draenei and humans after all what happened in Cata, night elves would put shackles on Highborne. I would imagine Highborne would determine the limits. No elf wants an Azshara repeat. Least of all Arcane elves

[Combatbutler]

Do you have a source for that? Never seen night elf restricting Highborne. And yes, I don't see nightborne accepting any such shackles, if the Western Kalimdor group insist but they are still a night elf based group.

It is mentioned in Wolfheart and quite a few highborne are not satisfied with the situation.

[Mace]

What I see happening is two nations for the night elf group. One of Western Kalimdor, Tyrande/Mal led, the other was Broken Isle group Nightborne majority with the other night elves of the isle since they are already helping each other.

West Kalimdor Group based on the current Long Vigil culture w/I the arcane ban
Broken Isle group based on the pre-sundering culture w/I the Azshara craziness, prob led by Illidan or Thalyssra

They are allied but not one Kingdom. Both groups have all the night elf classes. Except Broken isle group has warlocks excl to a nightborne toon instead of DKs.

All DHs will be Briken Isle group NElves, but diesnt matter since they are allied and you don't start in Teldrassil.

That sounds like the most sensible thing to do. Sorta makes sense too. Western Kalimdor NElves might have started using magic again, but they're still largely a druidic orientated society, in time they may get back to the full embrace of pre-sundering times or the Nightborne, but right now, it works much better as two kingdoms allied.

Actually the nightwell changed them into a different race, they are no longer night elves. That is explicitly stated in the chronicle...

they are no longer normal night elves, they are now evolved night elves. Chronicles states that "transforming them into a new-race called the nightborne" - it is not to be interpreted as a new creature race completely, like you have Ethereals, - it is clear that they are still elves, although you wouldn't necessarily know that from chronicles.... nor would I interpret it as exclusively a new race of elves either like you have blood elves they are afterall a night elven culture greatly advanced in the arcane... unlike blood elves, their culture hasn't changed, it is still night elven. I would interpret it as a new race of night elves. This is what is most clear.

If I were introducing nightborne, i would use new race, new race of elves, new race of night elves interchangeable - all would be true. As it is clear new race more like jungle trolls from zandalari trolls and certainly not new race like night elves from trolls or naga from night elves. The nightwell changed them, to a new race over time, but it was a new race of night elves.

Someone earlier referred to the two night elven groups as: normal night elf and evolved night elf. That works, it doesn't quite work for blood elves does it, even though it's true, cos blood elves did something new, started something different from scratch, they also look different enough unlike the nightborne. And face it, nightborne changes are not as distinct as some of the other sub-race variations we have, it puts them firmly in both the elf group and the night elf group


I think blizzard are now making an alternative night elven based group, like they do all the time.

[ravenmoon]

Actually the nightwell changed them into a different race, they are no longer night elves. That is explicitly stated in the chronicle, it is true they kept the original highborne night elf culture, but the modern night elves renounce most of said culture even after readmitting the shen'dralar into their society. They are social outcasts with their arcane capabilities strictly regulated by Night elven society, it is very doubtful the nighborne would be willing to accept such shackles, nor can I see them accepting Malfurion or Tyrande as leaders of their people.

From the way I read it, Wolfheart, firstly happens before the Cata quest lines - which update the stance on magic. In Wolfheart, they've just been recently accepted and there are still stipulations being worked out.. there is a TEMPORARY restriction which they don't like, but the promise is that they would be able to freely and fully work their magic. Malfurion tells the impatient and unhappy highborne that they will get there but it won't happen overnight, after pointing out the sins of the past as if to emphasize that part. People still remember. By the time we hit the quests in cata, as the need for magic is greater than ever, we see from the ingame texts etc that there working full on and accepted.

From all the revelations and lore progression that's happened, now this is a few years later, I don't see Malfruion/Tyrande not accepting nightborne also, nor they them. They're stopped restricting them by the time we start the cata quests, their attitudes to the arcane are certainly not what we thought and those have also changed. We see night elves in legion in even more dire need including Malfurion, we also see good nightborne leading the charge with night elves to save their city, which will strengthen the bond.

We also see demon hunters working with night elves and wardens, after contending with demon hunters, the arcane seems a bit silly to be so fussy over.

I really see the nightborne joining the night elves as a strong possibility, but being their own people with their own customs, just like the highborne told Malfurion:- They will join up but they will remain their own people. I feel the nightborne will be like that too, but I also feel the night elves would be a lot more open now than they were then, especially after Illidan arrives, and the full extent of their folly over magic is laid bare as well as the task at hand. They are the group that has greatest enmity with the legion on Azeroth, they are going to want to stand united and use all their strengths. They will call on Elune to cleanse the nightwell after driving Gul'dan from the Palace (possibly one of the last things to happen in Legion), and utilise its power like the blood elves do the sunwell. I think they'll use it to repaire their civilization, and fight their threats like the Legion. I think in the future, both the nightwell and the sunwell , and the power of the planet will be brought to bare against defeating the Legion on Argus.

I think this story shows how the night elf group gain their own power source replacing the well of eternity so it matches more with the blood elves possibly for race v race reasons - so the night elves are more on even match with the Belves, but the overarching story would have both these races as well as all of Azeroth teaming up together to destroy the Legion.

So speculation aside, I think Malfurion and Tyrande would accept them. Tyrande is shown as very gracious too in those interactions... I like it, she should be tough and harsh in battle, regal and unhesitant, but complete contrast outside. One thing the story shows is that Malfruion and Tyrande are not idiots, they accept what's right when it's shown to them, and what's best for their people. Looking at the ban of arcane magic, if Malfurion had known the information he now knows, they would never have placed the ban. yes the druid way is different to the mage, what would have resulted ini was both groups really learning from each other. The reason it didn't happen sadly was because the sources of truth, Illidan and Darth'remar were not very trustworthy at all, and he chose to be safer than sorry.

It turned out both Darth'remar and Illidan were right, but he didn't know that, nor did Cenarius either obviously not seeing what Illidan saw, nor really familiar with the arcane arts. Now they know the truth, you can see why they lifted the ban, they won't keep it, nor would they keep restrictions in place and as cata quests show, those restrictions Mal/Tyrande promised would go were gone when we meet the highborne in the quests.

[Beloren]

From the way I read it, Wolfheart, firstly happens before the Cata quest lines - which update the stance on magic. In Wolfheart, they've just been recently accepted and there are still stipulations being worked out.. there is a TEMPORARY restriction which they don't like, but the promise is that they would be able to freely and fully work their magic. Malfurion tells the impatient and unhappy highborne that they will get there but it won't happen overnight, after pointing out the sins of the past as if to emphasize that part. People still remember. By the time we hit the quests in cata, as the need for magic is greater than ever, we see from the ingame texts etc that there working full on and accepted.

From all the revelations and lore progression that's happened, now this is a few years later, I don't see Malfruion/Tyrande not accepting nightborne also, nor they them. They're stopped restricting them by the time we start the cata quests, their attitudes to the arcane are certainly not what we thought and those have also changed. We see night elves in legion in even more dire need including Malfurion, we also see good nightborne leading the charge with night elves to save their city, which will strengthen the bond.

We also see demon hunters working with night elves and wardens, after contending with demon hunters, the arcane seems a bit silly to be so fussy over.

I really see the nightborne joining the night elves as a strong possibility, but being their own people with their own customs, just like the highborne told Malfurion:- ...

So speculation aside, I think Malfurion and Tyrande would accept them. Tyrande is shown as very gracious too in those interactions... I like it, she should be tough and harsh in battle, regal and unhesitant, but complete contrast outside. One thing the story shows is that Malfruion and Tyrande are not idiots, they accept what's right when it's shown to them, and what's best for their people. Looking at the ban of arcane magic, if Malfurion had known the information he now knows, they would never have placed the ban. yes the druid way is different to the mage, what would have resulted ini was both groups really learning from each other. The reason it didn't happen sadly was because the sources of truth, Illidan and Darth'remar were not very trustworthy at all, and he chose to be safer than sorry.

It turned out both Darth'remar and Illidan were right, but he didn't know that, nor did Cenarius either obviously not seeing what Illidan saw, nor really familiar with the arcane arts. Now they know the truth, you can see why they lifted the ban, they won't keep it, nor would they keep restrictions in place and as cata quests show, those restrictions Mal/Tyrande promised would go were gone when we meet the highborne in the quests.

Be that as it may, full acceptance or none, I think it will fit better if they were 2 different kingdoms of night elves rather than one great realm. For all their acceptance of magic etc, Highborne culture and nightborne culture are the same, but it's really different from current night elf one, and while I see current night elf one gaining it's own mages highborne/nightborne trained, I still see their society as continuing separately with their own ideals and way of running things. And it's okay to have 2 or 3 groups, that are different or similar. In fact you can roughly identify 4 groups. With similar pairings.

Pairing 1: Vigil minded society - Post Sundering NElf culture
Group 1 - main night elves which can have mages too now, incl large priesthood and prominent druid, it's post-vigil as integrating into societies based in Darnassus, north western kalimdor. They are Alliance aligned so they are not isolated like in Vigil times.
Group 2 Cenarian elves largely druid and warden. It's fully vigil minded, Night elf and Cenarion (Dryads/keepers - sons/daughters of Cenarius) and Tauren. Hyjal based, it's their group that is in Stonetalon mountain too. Similar to Group 1 but they are a different group. Neutral

Pairing 2: Arcane minded society - Pre-sundering NElf culture
Group 1: Nightborne which will also have normal night elves of the Broken Isles too amongst them which they call Suramar, the capital city Suramar becoming a centre of NElves - both nightborne (majority, and normal nelves. It is nightborne led, but will have it's druids and priests from Val'sharah and Wardens and Ghosts from Azsuna - they might even undo Azshara's curse on the Farondis highborne.

Groupo 2: Highborne also arcane culture, pre-sundering vein, Mages mostly, based in Eldre'thalas which they will eventually restore and control, that region also has normal night elves, and cenarions.

They can be 4 distinct groups here, having two clearly visible distinctions, but each society having a little bit of the others, like Group 1 would have mages more high/nightborne minded but living in that post-vigil society. Group 3 would have druids/priests but operating as part of nightborne culture. they would be druids kinda like how night elves were druids in pre-sundering time before Cenarius left them the first time (when Azshara's lot stopped respecting nature and went crazy) - you can be fully arcane minded but still respect nature and respect those who channel them even if you don't follow their path.

The 4 groups are united, like the Dwarves are, but they are separate

[Daralii]

If they throw the night elves a bone and have them join forces with the Nightborne, I hope it'd mean a graphical overhaul of Darnassus. The nelf architecture from vanilla is really pretty ugly, especially compared to Suramar.

[ravenmoon]

Be that as it may, full acceptance or none, I think it will fit better if they were 2 different kingdoms of night elves rather than one great realm. For all their acceptance of magic etc, Highborne culture and nightborne culture are the same, but it's really different from current night elf one, and while I see current night elf one gaining it's own mages highborne/nightborne trained, I still see their society as continuing separately with their own ideals and way of running things. And it's okay to have 2 or 3 groups, that are different or similar. In fact you can roughly identify 4 groups. With similar pairings.

yes, but you can have 1 great realm, and still have different peoples in it, with their own customs.
You can still have the Darnassian NElves with their own customs, the Eldre'thalas Elves with theirs and their city, the Suramar nightborne elves and their own customs too, without it being two separate nations. IT seems that's how the night elves worked it before anyway, and the way they do things tends to be quite segregated, both pre and post sundering. Post sundering druids are quite segregated from sentinels and the priesthood - i'm sure they can live like that.
We see Darnassus accepting the highborne fully, but them still remaining their own people with their own customs and tastes. I view them as good, but not as nice a group as the main night elves.

Also we keep talking about the nightwell being cleansed by the priesthood & druids, both tyrande and malfurion would most likely be involved with that which i can see lots of bonding even inspiring a few nightborne back to the priesthood, and handful to druidsm. I think also if the nightwell is to become the main night elven groups power source, they are all going to be involved with guarding it, they are all going to be suffused with it too.

If they throw the night elves a bone and have them join forces with the Nightborne, I hope it'd mean a graphical overhaul of Darnassus. The nelf architecture from vanilla is really pretty ugly, especially compared to Suramar.

I agree with them throwing night elves "a bone" and having them join forces with the nightborne - night elves seriously in need of several huge bones after the constant stream of woes, losses and nerfs over the last 12 years. In fact I think only something like the nightborne & suramar + nightwell would do for a start. They are the group with the smallest development in wow, the only one never to have gotten a sub-race and pretty much not expanded since WC3. The nightborne are the pre-sundering culture mentioned right from the beginning but you never saw. A faint hint in Dire Maul, but Suramar was the sort of thing you would have imagined. Also the female warrior aspect in wow also not seen much at all, but it was prominent in WC3.

Whether or not they ally with the other NElves officially, they are part of the night elven group lore, but I'd like them to also be part of the main group politically. They both need each other in the lore. Night elves' arcania is really weak, and they're are desperate for extra strength after all their losses. Cata shows one blood elf - unravelling an entire campaign of the NElves via magic in Azshara, really on the brink of defeat in Ashenvale, 3 blood elves take out an entire night elven base in desolace, not to mention how they were trashed in Ghostlands. The night elf group has been doing really poorly, and losing a lot, it's like blizzard has set up them up so weak and suffer so much to give them something amazing to strengthen them.

Also the nightborne are really going to need the night elves. We already see the good nightborne and night elves working as a unit in the resistance against the Legion aligned nightborne, their aim is to re-take the city and inspire the nightborne masses to remember their heritage and rise up. We succeed in that in the nighthold raid. So I reckon the city will then be run by the good nightborne First Arcanist Thalyssra and Li'leth Lunastre, Occuleth and others. Pre-disposing them heavily to continue working with their night elf kin. It's also further strengthened by Tyrande/Malfruion/Illidan/Maiev/Jarod are from Suramar City too, and the bulk of the night elven forces that went to fight Azshara and the Legion in Zin'Azshari also came from Suramar region. So it will be close re-union. I even reckon that the nightborne honor their former kin they thought lost, probably greatly revering them (that's an assumption here based on a quest in Suramar where a nightfallen mentions how they honoured those who fought and were lost in the War of the Ancients struggle), for all we know, the likes of Tyrande/Illidan/Malfurion/Jarod might be legends amongst the nightborne and the icing on the cake. (just projecting here).

Illidan returning too, as a hero and leader amongst his people would be great too, it may be too weird for Darnassus, but not for Suramar. All night elves need him now, the world too, and it wasn't the broken Isle nelves that imprisoned him the first time, altho it is where Maiev took his body the second time. But certainly not the nightborne who like the highborne Nelves, think like more like him. He is still motivated to save his people, and Malfurion is still his brother and Tyrande his love.

So, with the city reclaimed.. the nightborne are going to also need 2 major things. Firstly, cleansing the nightwell - something night elf priests/druids are really good at, but now with all the talk of Elune, the Tears of Elune etc, I'm feeling we may have Elune herself be the one to cleanse the night elf and the High Priestess officiating the ceremony. Secondly, they're going to need allies they can trust, who better than their kin they've been working with, people they know and a group that was from Suramar? They're logically going to turn to the night elves. Whether as allies in 2 separate nations, or as part of the same kingdom, who knows.

But that's the way i'v been hoping for it to go. Stiil even if it doesn't, seeing night elven culture in the nightborne and the new look, is like a treat for me who's wanted to see this side of night elves since WC3 manual and WotA was read. It's even cooler that they evolved too hence different model, and i like the model too.

[Mace]

Illidan returning too, as a hero and leader amongst his people would be great too, it may be too weird for Darnassus, but not for Suramar. All night elves need him now, the world too, and it wasn't the broken Isle nelves that imprisoned him the first time, altho it is where Maiev took his body the second time. But certainly not the nightborne who like the highborne Nelves, think like more like him. He is still motivated to save his people, and Malfurion is still his brother and Tyrande his love.

it's for this reason I'm more with the other guy on this one. With the Nightborne as a separate kingdom (still night elven based) but the arcane pre-sundering culture here, Illidan fits much better here especially with the issue of his imprisonment etc, and he thinks exactly the nightborne way too.
I can see the Broken Isle Night elves and nightborne as one group, and they are a sort of bridge to all elves, the blood elves can work much better with the an arcane led night elven group in the nightborne and Illidan too, so we can see some friendliness and seeds of unity on that wing. And off course they'd be friends with Darnassus, with a lot of catching up and exchanges but won't be dictated too.

[ravenmoon]

it's for this reason I'm more with the other guy on this one. With the Nightborne as a separate kingdom (still night elven based) but the arcane pre-sundering culture here, Illidan fits much better here especially with the issue of his imprisonment etc, and he thinks exactly the nightborne way too.
I can see the Broken Isle Night elves and nightborne as one group, and they are a sort of bridge to all elves, the blood elves can work much better with the an arcane led night elven group in the nightborne and Illidan too, so we can see some friendliness and seeds of unity on that wing. And off course they'd be friends with Darnassus, with a lot of catching up and exchanges but won't be dictated too.

but Illidan makes unity even more possible, his return I agree would have him bond well with the nightborne and the broken Isle group, but his revelations to the main night elf body will earn him hero status on par if not more than malfurion - especially since he is the key to completely defeating the Legion once and for all. Handling fel not for like or greedy love of power, but entirely for the reason of defeating the legion, is even more of a sacrifice than the rest of the night elves have made. To inflict that on yourself but to save us! They'd be so ashamed they didn't trust him, and Suramar is like screaming - this is what you missed out on - because they could have gotten that, without the nightwell corruption bit (since they would have not been cooped up in 1 city only).
If anything this would just tie them together strongly.


Night elf leadership opened up to be Tyrande/Malfurion/Evenshade/Illidan/Thalyssra/Lunastre - some in Suramar, some in Darnassus

- - - Updated - - -

and it would be very nice. if they worked together rather than separate

[Mace]

but Illidan makes unity even more possible, his return I agree would have him bond well with the nightborne and the broken Isle group, but his revelations to the main night elf body will earn him hero status on par if not more than malfurion - especially since he is the key to completely defeating the Legion once and for all. Handling fel not for like or greedy love of power, but entirely for the reason of defeating the legion, is even more of a sacrifice than the rest of the night elves have made. To inflict that on yourself but to save us! They'd be so ashamed they didn't trust him, and Suramar is like screaming - this is what you missed out on - because they could have gotten that, without the nightwell corruption bit (since they would have not been cooped up in 1 city only).
If anything this would just tie them together strongly.


Night elf leadership opened up to be Tyrande/Malfurion/Evenshade/Illidan/Thalyssra/Lunastre - some in Suramar, some in Darnassus

okay, yes, it could go that way, but none of this could happen at all for one, speculating on speculation is no good. and while I think they'll work in unity to defeat the Legion, I think, even with Illidan or especially with Illidan they'd be 2 distinct kingdoms. Sure there'll be crossovers, Broken Isles - i.e. Suramar group has the druids of Val'sharah and the priests and their discipline leader is Malfurion and Tyrande - Tauren and Troll druids leader is Malfurion because they are night elf druids doesn't mean they have to be part of the Darnassus Night Elves. Maiev may prefer to be with Nightborne led Suramar group, because of her beef with Tyrande over Illidan and ofc, now she has turned her hatred now to the real perpatrators, the Legion of which she now sees Illidan as equally against.

It also solves all the weirdness players might feel. Just have 2 night elf groups. One Nightborne led with Suramar as its capital, Illidan/Maiev/Thalyssra/Lunastre as its leaders, the other Tyrande/Malfurion/Jarod/Evenshade led. Separate though allied. One in the post-vigil society, and one in the pre-sundering society vein.

and Illidan is the only one I can see being fully venerated by both groups, the Darnassian Elves have had Tyrande/Malfurion for 10k years, not Illidan/Thalyssra. The Suramese Nightborne and Broken Isle night elves have not. Nightborne have had Thalyssra and Lunastre who save them from the Legion, not Malfurion/Tyrande, and this is where I see Illidan's contribution coming in and saving both groups and earning him their respect and loyalty even.

[Beloren]

yes, but you can have 1 great realm, and still have different peoples in it, with their own customs.
You can still have the Darnassian NElves with their own customs, the Eldre'thalas Elves with theirs and their city, the Suramar nightborne elves and their own customs too, without it being two separate nations. IT seems that's how the night elves worked it before anyway, and the way they do things tends to be quite segregated, both pre and post sundering. Post sundering druids are quite segregated from sentinels and the priesthood - i'm sure they can live like that.
We see Darnassus accepting the highborne fully, but them still remaining their own people with their own customs and tastes. I view them as good, but not as nice a group as the main night elves.

Also we keep talking about the nightwell being cleansed by the priesthood & druids, both tyrande and malfurion would most likely be involved with that which i can see lots of bonding even inspiring a few nightborne back to the priesthood, and handful to druidsm. I think also if the nightwell is to become the main night elven groups power source, they are all going to be involved with guarding it, they are all going to be suffused with it too.

anyway, we don't know what will happen, they may end up annhilated, or all by themselves - even though I would hope not.

I really like the idea of 2 separate night elven kingdoms, with one Nightborne led from Suramar. Kinda makes you feel a little different from "the other lot" - even though you're friends, maybe even a bit of rivalry.

Also there are enough components for 2 kingdoms. I like the idea of Nightborne leading the Broken Isle night elves. and I like that the kingdom isn't exclusively nightborne either, having druids and priests or the regular night elf race also very much a part - so they have their own thing and whole society too of various different disciplines

[Rhlor]

I think all the elves are the same race, of different ethnicities. as humans are human Caucasians as there are human Mongoloids for example

[Mace]

I think all the elves are the same race, of different ethnicities. as humans are human Caucasians as there are human Mongoloids for example

agreed, that's how i view them, blizzard decided to make the two types separtely playable, buty they could all be differention countries of Elves. it's just that in WoW (not all of warcraft foreveR) one type set (the white ones and their variations) are playable on the horde and the other type set (the black/dark ones) are playable on the alliance.

they could easily be their own group too