BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Deleted]

So compare the economy of the eu vs britain's. Which one is magnitudes larger?

yeah and look at some of the EU countrys
spain - has a large youth unemployment problem
italy - in trillions of pounds worth of debt
greece - same as italy
belgium - have a terrorism problem
france - same as belgium

the EU isnt the safe haven people believe it to be, switzerland isnt a member of the EU norway isnt either and they have exactly the same trade deals as the UK

- - - Updated - - -

So the EU says no to TTIP, the UK on Brexit says yes. Who is at the back of the queue in US trade negotiations now?

Oops.

US putting us at the back of the line for trade deals will hurt them a much as us, its cutting your nose off to spite your face, but US isnt the only country we can trade with i mean iceland which is not an EU country has a population of like 250k and they can do trade deals with china so im pretty sure UK can to,If america wanna be dicks about us leaving the EU then we will just trade with china

[caervek]

The right-wing needs to keep it's stories consistent. According to republicans and Trump the TTIP is all about benefiting Europe and too costly for the US. Which one is it?

It's actually both.

What Trump/etc are not clarifying when they say TTIP will cost jobs and reduce food safety laws, environmental legislation, banking regulations, etc. Is that the jobs will move to the US (where labour standards and trade union rights are lower), that the reduction of food safety laws will happen in the EU (to bring them down to the levels of the US safety laws), etc. About the only thing that will not benefit the US about TTIP is the loosening of US banking regulations (so it does cut both ways).

Basically politicians are being sneaky with their wording (shock).

[Austilias]

The right-wing needs to keep it's stories consistent. According to republicans and Trump the TTIP is all about benefiting Europe and too costly for the US. Which one is it?

You should ask whoever's making those claims. I don't have any real love for the US, and see the 'special relationship' for what it is.

[Noradin]

I like the stunt the EU just pulled claiming countrys who democratically elect right leaning leaders won't have the say they are entitled to.

When did they do that?
Do you have a legitimate source?

And just for the record, Poland is not punished for the politicans they elected.
At best it is "punished" for their actions. If it cannot meet the standards required for having a say in the EU then it does not get a say.
The stunt the pulled with their constitutional court is the cause of all their problems, EU is only following through on the terms Poland agreed to.

[Mehrunes]

And just for the record, Poland is not punished for the politicans they elected.
At best it is "punished" for their actions. If it cannot meet the standards required for having a say in the EU then it does not get a say.
The stunt the pulled with their constitutional court is the cause of all their problems, EU is only following through on the terms Poland agreed to.

When you get down to personal level, they didn't just agree to it. The mechanism of safeguarding the rule of law exists thanks to changes made in the Lisbon Treaty. That on Polish side was negotiated by PiS (i.e. the Polish party currently acting like Belorussian government) when they were in power the previous time. And they paraded it as great victory for Poland back then, and a triumph of their failed government (I'm not just being mean, the government literally failed and crashed in the middle of its term).

[Deleted]

This needs to be adressed, because it's the biggest lie being spread by the leave-camp.

If you think democratic accountability is bad in the EU, then why would want to return power to a political system that has even lower democratic accountability?

The British Parliament operates under a first-past-the-post voting system. That means the biggest party always gets a lot more seats than their votes account for. This is why the Conservative Party is currently in power, with 51% of parliament seats even though it only has 36,8% of the votes. Labour has only 6,4% less votes yet they lose more than double that in representation with 15% less seats allocated to them. The 51 seats the Liberal Democrats should receive? Gutted to just 8. The 82 that UKIP should get and the 24 for the Greens? Both reduced to 1! All in all about 23% of British voters don't even have their vote represented in parliament! That's more than 7 million people in 30 million voters who are completely unrepresented.

So what's really going on here?

Put simply: the European Parliament is ruled by progressives, liberals, socialists and centrist Christians. The conservative right is powerless. This means anything the British conservatives want to do can be blocked by Labour's European allies. However, if the British conservatives manage to drag the UK out the EU, Labour and every other party are essentially rendered powerless while the conservatives are handed complete power for the foreseeable future. It is nothing less than an attempted coup of the British political system by the conservative right under the guise of of national sovereignty. Within the Conservative Party, it is an attempted coup by the far right against centrist reformers like David Cameron who want to steer the party towards moderate waters with the help of other European centrists.

All in all: the UK referendum has fuck all to do with national sovereignty and everything with reactionairy conservatives trying to control the UK through its broken voting system.

Err except if that was the case they are still legally bound by UK law to have a general election in 4 years time. In which case the public could just vote them out by a massive labour majority.

Also it makes me laugh how everyone is saying how to conservatives somehow tricked their way into power.... They have a majority. This means the majority of the UK voted for them. Yeah first past the post isn't the best system maybe but they got a lot of votes yet apparently no one voted for them....

[Noradin]

Go ahead and quote the part you think that backs up your point.

If you cannot find that part in a list of two items then you are hopeless anyway.
Open another thead if you want to continue this useless discussion, but I will stop here.
My point has been made pages ago and continuing here would only derail the thread.

[Mayhem]

If you cannot find that part in a list of two items then you are hopeless anyway.
Open another thead if you want to continue this useless discussion, but I will stop here.
My point has been made pages ago and continuing here would only derail the thread.

Quoting would have been faster.

[Deleted]

When did they do that?
Do you have a legitimate source?

And just for the record, Poland is not punished for the politicans they elected.
At best it is "punished" for their actions. If it cannot meet the standards required for having a say in the EU then it does not get a say.
The stunt the pulled with their constitutional court is the cause of all their problems, EU is only following through on the terms Poland agreed to.

Please don't speak a word about topics you have no idea about.

Few weeks before elections leaving party PO illegally chosen few judges when they had no right to do so, according to Polish constitution those judges should be chosen by new party that wins elections. Polish president didn't accept illegaly chosen judges and PiS won and chosen new judges. PO broke the Polish law and when President and PiS party (both chosen by the people in a landslide elections) refused to accept PO's (party whose leader and prime minister was Donald Tusk before he destroyed Poland and had to run away to brussels) move of trying to leave their own people in control of law in Poland with its last dying breath, now PO most hated party in Poland has its tentacles in EU comision due to Tusk being lap dog of merkel and licking her ass and they are trying to make Poland look like dictatorship so they can cone and "rescue Polish democracy" xD.

Fact is Poland is hounded because we laughed in the merkel face when she ordered us to take care of her immigrants. merkel overdone with invitations and instead of required 1-2 mln unqualified work force required by Germany they got 1-2 mln of unqualified, unintegratable, violent, sexist, often illiterate people who will not fullfil germanys need for workers as most of them aren't in germany to work but to get free money and housing and have fun "culturally enriching" German women.

Now after whole central/eastern europe shown a middle finger to brussels EU is shitting themselves as they have no idea what to do with all those people, first they ordered, then they pleaded now they threaten with fines of up to 250k euro for each not taken immigrant (Lithuania which took couple of hundreds of immigrants received 6k euro for each one for 2 years - to cover housing and integration xD).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr6ZWF371Po

[Noradin]

~snip (almost unintelligible anyway)~

So first the old government broke the law and then the new one broke it again and left the land with both resulting problems?
Is that supposed to be a justification?
That makes it worse, not better.

The rest of your post is just some conspiracy theory. (I can only guess, it is almost unreadable.)

[Kronik85]

Also it makes me laugh how everyone is saying how to conservatives somehow tricked their way into power.... They have a majority. This means the majority of the UK voted for them. Yeah first past the post isn't the best system maybe but they got a lot of votes yet apparently no one voted for them....

330 seats out of 650 is a pathetically slim majority, if as little as 6 Conservative MP's rebel they lose that majority and it certainly isn't anything close to a mandate from the British people. Equally 36% of the total voting share does not a majority make when 64% of the people that voted in the UK didn't vote for the Conservative party.

So in short the only thing you've got right here was that the UK parliament now has to call a general election every 4 years and I'm not even sure how that pertains to what you've quoted.

[Deleted]

This OP was the first time i really saw where americans came from. Complete disregard for the consequences, let's do it cause.

Do you realise your whole argument ends at the fact that you simply want to have a say on this comission more directly? I totally agree with that and i think many would aswell. Instead of exit, i think europe needs to head to the next union step and actually become a unified country. But i know many are not prepared for that aswell due to historical conservatism.

[Deleted]

well its only 22 days to go until we leave or stay in th EU

[Mhyroth]

well its only 22 days to go until we leave or stay in th EU

Only 22 days reading silly comments about why it's a good thing to leave the EU. Gosh un-informed people are silly.

[smokii]

no matter what happens with the vote, we'll have to live with it and make it work anyway.

personally, i'm tempted to vote out. not because i'm a racist, bigot or otherwise, but purely because i dont trust the EU. none of the EU commissioners were voted into their positions, in fact paxman has just interviewed one who quite readily admits he's never won an election, or even stood for election. so how does this guy end up making EU law? then there's people like Tony fucking Blair working on the EU commission. fuck that dude, seriously, i find it hard to believe he's not been shot, or stabbed by a member of the public. it's also very interesting how the Chilcott report is not being released until the week after the vote.

the economy. honestly, we've had a recession brought on by poor banking practice and another brought on by the Greek financial crisis. with both of those in mind and that we're currently living under austerity, an economic downturn is business as usual in the UK. self imposing another recession doesn't actually bother me. once we're out the other side, we would be solely in control of our financial destiny, as it's not a question of if, but when we'll get dragged into the Euro. Alone, we'd only have ourselves to blame for any further economic turmoil. at least we can then vote on who's in charge and with the conservatives being investigated for electoral fraud, we could see another general election within the next year.

i'm actually a supporter of tighter restricted movement into the UK. i don't have a problem with migrants and i'm not a racist, i have more of a problem with lazy brits, but it doesn't sit right with me to allow anybody free movement into your country. no matter what country you live in. if you're a morally upstanding person, or even just a semi moral, partially upstanding person, why should i have an issue letting you into my country and into professional employment. if you're coming here to flip burgers in mcdonalds because the minimum wage is 10x your own countries minimum wage, whilst sending back benefits to your family of 18, without actually hitting the taxable earnings limit, then maybe you're playing the system and we should be making our home grown birth control challenged numpties fill those roles.

the UK is also a small island. we dont have excess land mass to build on, we have farm land, protected land, conservation areas and house prices rising faster than imaginable due to foreign investment in tower blocks well beyond the remits of "affordable housing". we have longer life expectancies and as such, hundreds of family homes with nowt but an elderly granny waiting to die inside, but kept alive by modern medicine. so houses that would usually be recycled into the next generation either aren't being sold, because they aren't yet vacant, or the people intending to make them into a family home are outbid by the buy to let crowd, who want to convert it into a small block of flats to make more profit. buy to let is totally out of control, so i actually welcome a bit of a house price crash, even though it's gonna sting my pocket, it'll hurt the buy to let market a lot more and they need a good kick in the balls. greed has taken over.

in fact, i can almost see this vote as a bit of vote for or against capitalism. if all you care about is money, you'll want to vote in and support capitalism. if you care about other things in life, you might be a bit more indecisive on the subject.

whilst i would love to think that we could stay in Europe and hope to change it for the better, we were basically told, that's it no more renegotiating for you. so how anyone can hope to renegotiate when we've been told we can't is delusional.

politics is utterly corrupt at the moment and whether we leave or stay, the UK is in for shit storm. a rebellion is coming, a new age of people are growing up looking at the world and going "what the fuck have you people done?". the internet has changed an entire generation of youth into critical thinkers, far beyond the reach of the deception and propaganda of old.

seriously, how many people do you know that are already tired of all the bullshit propaganda and name calling already? it's got 3 more weeks to run!

all we want is truth, not speculation, not biased predictions that it'll start world war 3, or that bananas will come in all shapes and sizes, or that everyone from the UK currently residing in a foreign country will be immediately deported should we leave, or that any europeans living in the UK will get deported. if you're here, or there legally, that's where you'll stay. if you want to move elsewhere, there might be a bit more paperwork involved.

the UK first joined the EU under the guise of the single market trade deal, which slowly descended into political posturing. whilst some EU working directives have indeed been positive, do you really believe we'll suddenly throw out sensible working directives? or that the party involved in changing working directives at the cost of the workers would stay in power for long? i know my folks voted into the EU because of the single market, they didn't vote in to give the power of law making to the EU. my folks even go so far as to to say the country was deceived on the original EU vote and more power was given away than they were informed of.

honestly, i'm more concerned about who is going to be renegotiating the exit deal, if it goes that way. who is going to decide where the money (£350million a week isn't right, but it's more than £100million a week after rebates) that is channelled into the EU is redirected to? would we seriously scrap the NHS and privatise it? what kind of arrogant politician would make such suicidal career decision to kill or privatise the NHS?

i've also heard, but cannot confirm that the french, dutch and czech's are also in support of their own EU exit. the UK leaving the EU wouldn't start WW3 like Cameron suggests, but may well pave the way for the downfall of the EU. if that happened, all the trade deals would be renegotiated anyways.

what is a concern, is that the world is in a fragile place at the moment, Russia and terrorism are both threats to peace in the EU - that and only that is what gives me true cause for concern, but dropping out of the EU trade and political merry go round, isn't going to stop us from being a nuclear power, even if trident is worryingly outdated. we're still a part of NATO and the UN security council, that wouldn't change because of a brexit. we also wouldn't end up with a refugee camp on the kent coast.

at the end of the day, vote whichever way you want. but FFS do your research, don't take my word for it, i'm just some faceless dude on the internet - that profile pic is not even my face!




holy crap, that went on, will be surprised if someone reads it all. well done to you if you did /pat on back.

[Mehrunes]

Please don't speak a word about topics you have no idea about.

Few weeks before elections leaving party PO illegally chosen few judges when they had no right to do so, according to Polish constitution those judges should be chosen by new party that wins elections. Polish president didn't accept illegaly chosen judges and PiS won and chosen new judges.

Likewise. PO changed the law prior to the election that allowed them to elect 5 judges instead of the 3 they were allowed to. PiS overturned not just the law, but each of the five individual decisions choosing five different judges. Which they didn't have the right to do even in light of PO's shenanigans, because the parliament has no such right. They elected five new judges altogether. And instead of waiting with taking the oath from them for the verdict of the Constitutional Tribunal on both the acts of PO and PiS, the president did it immediately.

Lo and behold, Tribunal confirmed that PO had no right to elect two of the judges it did and PiS had no right to elect three of the judges it did AND to make PO's choice of them invalid. So the president accept three illegally chosen judges anyway. And did not accept three judges that have been legally elected. And the thing is, becoming a judge of the Constitutional Tribunal is not dependent on president taking the oath. Actually judging is. So the first three judges elected by PO are already judges, that simply can't judge. Which means on top of the above two breaches of the constitution that PiS committed, their election of three additional judges means that there are more judges in the Tribunal that it is allowed by the constitution.

Then they wrote a law that cockblocked the Tribunal after the president of it prohibited the three additional judges from performing their tasks, because they are legally unrecognized excess judges. And when the Tribunal wiped their ass with that novelization, the government refused to publish it, even though it's their legal obligation to do so. And they deny reality of that the publication is not a required step for the verdict to be binding, even though Supreme Court confirmed it to be the case.

And when they ran to Venice Commission (which was hypocritical of them) for someone to tell the world they are right, the Commission took a huge dump on literally everything PiS has done in relation to this crisis. Including their proposed solutions to the problem (that they created), like dismissing all of the judges and electing 15 new ones (because having PiS elect all 15 would be true pluralism). Then Venice Commission lost its authority to make opinions and became a member of anti-Polish conspiracy theory fueled by the eternal victimhood of nationalists.. Which, as Noradin pointed out, permeates the rest of your post.

[Eggroll]

We have no say in our destiny? Are you one of those guys that whinges at Berlin no matter who's in power, because you fail at life so miserably that you need a scapegoat to blame that isn't you? Germany is a fucking paradise compared to other countries. Every metric is in our favour, even if we got demoted to what, rank 12 in a recent study of economic potential. Our biggest problem is self satisfaction and a lack of urge to improve ourselves. That's what you get when you do everything right for so long that people think it "just happens like that, because Germany".

That's how bloody well we shape our own destiny. I get it that some Englishmen want to leave, because for those leavers the thought that they are not ruling other people is just unbearable, but aside from that it's not a matter of "having a say" in a particular countries destiny. It's about Europe shaping its future together. As a community. We have more shared cultural heritage than differences. What's with the rise of this fucked up bullshit nationalism recently. Fucksake. /rant

The happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom

[Slant]

The happy slave is the worst enemy of freedom

Do you feel smart writing that? I'm actually curious if you think that's a smart line... :P

[hydrium]

Lots of globalists in this thread.

Anyways a couple of new polls have come out showing leave at 52% so there are definitely some sweet nationalism winds blowing.

[Kallisto]

Err except if that was the case they are still legally bound by UK law to have a general election in 4 years time. In which case the public could just vote them out by a massive labour majority.

Also it makes me laugh how everyone is saying how to conservatives somehow tricked their way into power.... They have a majority. This means the majority of the UK voted for them. Yeah first past the post isn't the best system maybe but they got a lot of votes yet apparently no one voted for them....

Since when is 36% of the voting electorate a Majority? Has maths been changed somewhere? Centre left Parties together held about 55% of the vote. When it comes down to it if you're on the left you have these choices

Labour
Lib Dem
Green
SNP in scotland
Plaid in Wales

While on right you have
Conservatives
UKIP

Many in the UK don't know what the FPTP system entails. They vote for who they want to win without realising in certain areas their preferred choice has absolutely NO chance of winning. This brings up problems when in many constituencies where there are places in which MPs are getting elected with as little as 30% of the area vote, meaning majority of people in the constituency voted against the person elected. This if they are a Conservative elected and the only one close enough was Labour, those that voted Lib Dem or Green essentially shot themselves in the foot. Pretty much putting the one they have least in agreement in the political sphere winning compared to those closer to them.