I have not heard of anyone talking about "basic income" outside of this forum.
I assume work in the future will be more technical/specialized or will otherwise involve things that cannot be automated (social services, counseling, etc).
I have not heard of anyone talking about "basic income" outside of this forum.
I assume work in the future will be more technical/specialized or will otherwise involve things that cannot be automated (social services, counseling, etc).
It's a thing of the future, really. It's an inevetiable fate that no matter the opinions of people, it will come to pass. It's all about a question of time.
It's not what you, i, or Freddy McFreedy would think. It's a standing fact that robots evolve and that they do more and more of the business.
And with that fact, more and more will become jobless. There are more progressive countries that don't live on the idea of aggressive warmongering and capitalism, such as the US does - like Finland and Sweden for instance - They have welfare.
And what is "Welfare", will eventually become what you call "Base Income".
Just give it a few decades and it'll all come to be just fucking dandy, trust me.
"Incentive to work" in my opinion would actually be higher with a basic added income. Why? Because right now a lot of people are barely struggling just to pay bills and buy food by working 40 hours a week. Add the basic income, and all of the sudden you're able to pay all your bills far easier while having extra money on top of that.
In Sweden, it's your Rent + a minimum. It's approx like 830 euros, about 1.2k dollars in your terms. + Possible other benefits, such as paying your electric bill, glasses, medical bills, etc.
It's enough for me to pay rent, bills, food and some enjoyment. And it's a statistical measurement of how much you "need" to survive.
And i don't think there will be a lot of issues with it. To be completely frank, i think that if the system adapts to it, i expect it to work for itself and be fully self-contained.
Fact is, if it's not exposed to corruption, it'll be better than what we see currently.
They should just elect Trump, I hear he's gonna give 1 million dollars to every single American. 300 million dollars is chump change to Trump anyway right?
Let's see...
Also, considering the advances in technology and assuming that we're still going to be using a barter-based economic system Mincome will becomes an absolute necessity unless you feel you euthenizing a VERY large portion of the human population.
Let's also not forget. Mincome would also eliminate the Minimum Wage, and probably be set at a level that allows an individual to live in the less populated portions of the Country (this aint going to be enough for Seattle or New York obviously). So there will still be motivation for individuals who truly do want to work.
Last edited by Baelic; 2016-06-01 at 04:03 AM.
The trouble is that it won't be that long...20 years, 50 years...till we are ALL sponges.
Automation is coming in a big way and this time there won't be many jobs to move into because AI and advanced automation will take those as well.
Whether its in fast food, cooking, policing, surgery, financial analysis, manufacturing....even playing music and art...automation can do it. It can do it now and time will simply make it cheaper and more effective and efficient. And that'll feed into things like training and experience. How will you become a Masterchef if robots handle all the cooking?
UBI is probably the only solution that is going to work...unless you want to see entire cities filled with the poor and starving. It's not like income tax will raise a lot of money.
You'll probably find we'll get a robot tax of so many thousands per years, coupled with a tax system that doesn't skew things towards the wealthy so much. And you'll end up with each adult citizen guaranteed so much income per year, which they can top up through whatever work they want or can do...but even then will only work if manufacturers don't engage in profiteering or push prices to the point UBI doesn't work.
Whether or not you agree with UBI, the next 50 years will see an increasing degree of automation and this will inevitably lead to huge numbers of people as unemployed and with zero hope of getting a job. Why? Because robots will be cheaper and easier - whatever work there is, robots will do it. Those people will need homes...food...entertainment...and something to do. They will need money. Resources. If not UBI...how?
IMHO, this is an overblown effect, since one of the immediate outcomes is that many would likely leave their jobs or go into much smaller scale modes of work. I.E. there would be a cascade of people leaving full time for part time, part time for temp ect. And many people likely going self employed.
Landlords doing that would be assuming someone gets this money AND keeps their previous work were they also earned income.
Price Discovery would be halted simply because most people would likely leave their current jobs or leave their current capacity of work.
ALSO a big part of UBI is wages going down since we no longer need a min. wage. SO even if someone was to decide they liked working 40 hours a week moving boxes about or running the register at Wal-Mart, they would be making a lot less, but all of it would be pure pocket money.
On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.
You answered it yourself. If there is more money available to the consumer class, then those that offer goods and services to the consumer class have an incentive and a reason to raise prices. It may not effect small local communities, because people can choose to move one town away to avoid increases in rent, or travel to the next town for their groceries. When the program is instituted nationwide, you’ll see a different outcome.
People are greedy by nature; there is nothing anyone is going to do to change that.
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There wouldn't actually be MORE money. The factor people are forgetting is how many will cut back on hours worked since all work after Mincome or UBI would be purely for pocket money and luxuries. Once more, the Min. Wage can go since its functionally useless so many jobs will have less wages to reflect actual market value . So even if someone for whatever reason chose to stay on full time 40 hours a week at Wal-Mart after Mincome, they would only make a third of what the currently do, or some seriously reduced number. But since all living expenses are handled, they are just working for extra cash for luxury purchases. To be perfectly honest I think once UBI comes into affect the most immediate social change will be the majority of workers cutting back on hours worked from full time to part time, and many part timers just working odd temporary jobs here and there.
Most prices would fall due to reduced labour costs AND as automation kicks off, reduced production costs in general. More over since people aren't reliably pulling in Luxury income prices would have to stay low to keep people purchasing.
On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.
Price discovery (or price setting as I called it) would happen regardless. If there is more money available to a population of people, then the result is inflation. That is unless you’re arguing that there wouldn’t be any extra money in the market. If that’s the case, then why bother with the UBI in the first place? Is it simply so people don’t have to work anymore? The argument again and again in this thread and threads in the past is that a UBI doesn’t disincentivise work, it allows working people to afford to live. It’s either one or the other, it can’t be both.
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Again, you can’t have it both ways. Either UBI disincentivises work, and people will work less –or- it doesn’t disincentivise work, and the result is inflation. Also, you’re saying that people will have extra money for extra cash and luxury purchases. I’m saying that the extra money they have will drive inflation and the rise in cost of basic goods and services. Again, you can’t have it both ways. Either they continue to work and have extra money (inflation), or the don’t continue to work (no incentive to work).
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... You can´t be greedy and that´s it. People have to be willing to pay the prices. The consumers however are greedy themselves and therefor won´t pay whatever price a company/landlord can come up with. It has to be reasonable.
That said, i don´t think people are greedy by nature. They are selfish to a degree, yes, some more some less, but only a few are greedy. If you´re having a good life with current prices and on top get a mincome, there´s no need to increase prices. Why risk losing your customers?
The first thing we must do is dispel the faulty notion that the poor are the biggest drain on public resources. No poor people use more government services/benefits then the wealthy and business owners. I doubt you could combine 1,000,000 poor families and find they benefit more from welfare than the Waltons, for example.
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