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  1. #901
    If DPS 101 is to do dummy testing, and it was intuitive how to play arcane even with the conflicting mechanics of arcane charges and mana adept, shouldn't it be even easier to intuit with the synergistic effects of charges and savant?

    Savant doesnt just increase mana regen and cap, it also increases the damage contribution of charges, which does inform gameplay. The synergies make it even more important to remain at high charges.
    Last edited by whisperingsage; 2016-05-30 at 05:36 AM.

  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Komman View Post
    The search for an optimal rotation with mana adept is hardly as simple as using DFS or BFS and calling it a day. People have tried minimax approaches, closed loop formulation using Markov Chains, and if you look a little further back in history, genetic programming. Sadly, some of those writings aren't accessible right now with the old EJ forums being down.
    These should mostly work. I'm working on doing this for DH, Enhance, Fury, and Fire right now, just to have a quick and easy answer to optimal stats/talents/play for any given fight.

  3. #903
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Komman View Post
    The search for an optimal rotation with mana adept is hardly as simple as using DFS or BFS and calling it a day. People have tried minimax approaches, closed loop formulation using Markov Chains, and if you look a little further back in history, genetic programming. Sadly, some of those writings aren't accessible right now with the old EJ forums being down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plastkin View Post
    These should mostly work.
    I remember that guy doing genetic programming on elitist jerks. He would often come back and say he had to amend his formulation on Rawr based on what he found on simulations. In general formulating for wow seems like a very complex process.

    https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...onVsSimulation

  4. #904
    Posted by Komma
    Some questions on Touch of the Magi, the artifact trait for Aluneth. I've documented how they currently work in a forum post, but some of them raise questions:

    1. Touch of the Magi is double dipping on all multipliers (Versatility, Arcane Power, Might of the Guardians, Rune of Power). That is to say, if you use Arcane Power (30% damage gain), it explodes for 13% of accumulated damage instead of the base 10% accumulated damage. This is a bug, right?
    2. Touch of the Magi does not accumulate damage dealt by items such as Felmouth Frenzy, and presumably damage dealing trinkets. Intended?
    3. Touch of the Magi does not accumulate damage dealt by pets (Arcane Familiar, Mirror Images). Intended?
    4. You posted that Touch of the Magi has a haste-scaling RPPM proc rate. It is currently a fixed duration debuff (6 seconds), which means that haste would be double scaling due to increased uptime. Intended?


    1. Fixed to not double-dip on multipliers, and not be able to crit, for next next build. (EDIT: Whoops, typo fixed.)
    2. It was not counting proc’d damage. Fixed for next next build.
    3. It should count pets. Fixed for next next build.
    4. Touch of the Magi proc chance changed to 7% chance (still 6sec ICD), for the next next build. No more RPPM on it at all.
    Is this another nerf to Touch of the Magi?

  5. #905
    "Fix" is probably more accurate.
    Last edited by Komman; 2016-05-31 at 05:09 AM.

  6. #906
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komman View Post
    "Fix" is probably more accurate.
    Well, regarding having now a mere 7% of chance to be triggered instead of the RPPM proc system it has before... is a pure nerf, I mean, I prefer more the RPPM proc system to avoid frustration and such...

    Regarding the other issues thanks God they are being fixed!

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    I mean, I prefer more the RPPM proc system to avoid frustration and such...
    With how they are fixing RPPM procs in Legion finally, you might prefer it with an ICD tbh

  8. #908
    Deleted
    I saw the new Rune of Power briefly. It seems very frequently available, still movement restrictive and quite nerfed if you must move for the entirety of a fight. I estimate that it will be much more controllable now on hard mode raiding where the positioning is definitive after 20 pulls but it it's still a very hard choice considering it does a massive 50% boost to damage and you can't lose that even for a few seconds judging by how they usually balance the game.

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    With how they are fixing RPPM procs in Legion finally, you might prefer it with an ICD tbh
    OMG! RPPM procs needed to be fixed? What are they going to "fix"? According to WoWpedia, RPPM procs were a sort of improvement with respect to ICDs, as they prevented unlucky streaks by increasing the chance to trigger the effect the more time the effect was no triggered...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    I saw the new Rune of Power briefly. It seems very frequently available, still movement restrictive and quite nerfed if you must move for the entirety of a fight. I estimate that it will be much more controllable now on hard mode raiding where the positioning is definitive after 20 pulls but it it's still a very hard choice considering it does a massive 50% boost to damage and you can't lose that even for a few seconds judging by how they usually balance the game.
    I only have a problem with [Rune of Power], well, perhaps the problem is more related with the tier level itself where it is...

    As long as a great majority of people choose [Rune of Power] by default (because is the more powerful talent of its tier level), there will be a problem. In my view, the three talents should be balanced, because otherwise there is no choice, only an obligation.

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    OMG! RPPM procs needed to be fixed? What are they going to "fix"?
    very low rppmm % procs (prophecy/soul cap for instance) will no longer 100% proc in the first 3 or so seconds of the fight, and may not proc for up to 50 seconds + after the opener

    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    because otherwise there is no choice, only an obligation.
    there is almost never any choice with any of the current talent rows anyway, its hardly a unique characteristic of the legion mage lvl 45 tier
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2016-05-31 at 09:47 PM.

  11. #911
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    almost never any choice with any of the current talent rows
    I can't see that on 100, 90, 60, maybe 45, 30, maybe 15.

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    I can't see that on 100, 90, 60, maybe 45, 30, maybe 15.
    good for you I guess

  13. #913
    Can anyone give me a quick overview of which talents I should be using on the beta for solo questing and dungeons? I've not long had beta access so haven't got a clue which ones are best (I know tuning is ongoing but just to give me an idea for now)
    Battletag: Chris#23952 (EU)
    Warlock

  14. #914
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Avikur View Post
    Can anyone give me a quick overview of which talents I should be using on the beta for solo questing and dungeons? I've not long had beta access so haven't got a clue which ones are best (I know tuning is ongoing but just to give me an idea for now)
    For Solo levelling,

    Quickening looks bad because it would drop without stacking much, I'll just go Arcane Orb. Overpowered is also generally bad because arcane burns rarely and it requires the burns rarely and in full for them to be worth it which is uncommon, unless you are doing a rare levelling boss, but even then it's rarely worth the trouble. On 90 I heard of nether tempest, which might be cool for big pulls but the other 2 don't look bad, it might not matter much which one there. Ice floes on 75 because the other 2 look time-wasting (even if some people claim mages should kite a lot with CCs, it's probably a waste of time on levelling if it's done in excess). 60 is unclear but I believe Words of Power looks bad for levelling, Supernova is powerful when stuff die fast in AOE, but, Charged Up is probably the strongest on single target while it also boosts AOE indirectly. 45 is annoying because rune of power is probably the strongest when used optimally but to use it optimally it might not be easy, mirrors have a huge cooldown which might make it clunky on levelling and incanter's is the regular old average choice, it's perhaps rune of power if you get a lot of high HP single target enemies but it doesn't seem very common sometimes. 30 must be shimmer because you level and travel a lot while you die little. 15 is probably presence of mind for single target and resonance for aoe.

    It seems a lot of stuff regarding those choices are subjective depended on style, AOE centered/big pulls or single target-centered. There is objectively of course a more likely scenario and that is usually single target or double target in levelling when chilling or AOE when going hard core though the latter case might need some kiting sometimes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For dungeons,

    It gets into the more serious raiding options. I wouldn't go into that now because it depends on a lot of factors. We have most of the discussions going around those choices anyway and we have a lot of forum material regarding that complex matter.

    Only difference is that dungeons often need more focus on AOE because of trash but that's mainly a matter of regarding them as an "AOE boss".
    Last edited by mmocdc260e8e2a; 2016-06-01 at 10:37 PM.

  15. #915
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Avikur View Post
    Can anyone give me a quick overview of which talents I should be using on the beta for solo questing and dungeons? I've not long had beta access so haven't got a clue which ones are best (I know tuning is ongoing but just to give me an idea for now)
    Im using

    15 Resonance - Its very very very strong for aoe pulling. You will most likely pull more than 1/2 mobs and since barrage hits like a truck more damage isnt a bad thing.

    30 Cold Snap - I started with shimmer but found higher hp mobs/ rares harder to kill without kiting for ever which isnt very fun/ possible depending on what the mobs around you are like. For raiding i will 100% take Shimmer unless i need to cheese something with block. The heal is pretty useful when pulling alot. Popping your mark and rune with 5/6+ mobs around you while blocked is an easy way to kill alot of mobs quickly while not getting rekt.

    45 Rune of power- all day every day. This ability is hands down the strongest in the tier. Its a pain to use at first but you will get used to it and learn that the zone is larger than the rune shows.

    60 This was actually kinda hard to decide. Supernova is nice for the mini cc and AoE. Charged up synergizes well with Nether tempest and AoE damage for barrgae - Charged up - Barrage. Words of power feels lack luster.

    75 - Ice floes is just king

    90 - I chose Nether Tempest for a couple reasons. 1.Nether tempest does decent damage during AoE and since you dont Arcane blast on AoE its better than Unstable magic in that regard.

    2. The way mob tagging works now is that as long as someone from your faction is killing it you can tag it for credit. You can litterally run through an area Nether tempesting(instant) mobs other people are fighiting. You can do it with barrage but since it has travel time the mob can die before it even hits (trust me this shit happens alot).

    100. Quickening/Arcane orb. Since arcane lost the lower cast time per arcane charge it now feels slow as hell. It feels a bit nicer with quickening. Its nice for burns on bosses in dungeons. I took arcane orb for leveling though as its pretty useful to ramp up your damage quickly.

    Leveled to 110 in the shitty premade char gear they gave you which felt awful and you need to eat after every big pull but i reckon its gonna be a cake walk in anything 710/720+

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadohw View Post

    30 Cold Snap - I started with shimmer but found higher hp mobs/ rares harder to kill without kiting for ever which isnt very fun/ possible depending on what the mobs around you are like. For raiding i will 100% take Shimmer unless i need to cheese something with block. The heal is pretty useful when pulling alot. Popping your mark and rune with 5/6+ mobs around you while blocked is an easy way to kill alot of mobs quickly while not getting rekt.

    45 Rune of power- all day every day. This ability is hands down the strongest in the tier. Its a pain to use at first but you will get used to it and learn that the zone is larger than the rune shows.

    60 This was actually kinda hard to decide. Supernova is nice for the mini cc and AoE. Charged up synergizes well with Nether tempest and AoE damage for barrgae - Charged up - Barrage. Words of power feels lack luster.

    75 - Ice floes is just king

    90 - I chose Nether Tempest for a couple reasons. 1.Nether tempest does decent damage during AoE and since you dont Arcane blast on AoE its better than Unstable magic in that regard.

    2. The way mob tagging works now is that as long as someone from your faction is killing it you can tag it for credit. You can litterally run through an area Nether tempesting(instant) mobs other people are fighiting. You can do it with barrage but since it has travel time the mob can die before it even hits (trust me this shit happens alot).

    100. Quickening/Arcane orb. Since arcane lost the lower cast time per arcane charge it now feels slow as hell. It feels a bit nicer with quickening. Its nice for burns on bosses in dungeons. I took arcane orb for leveling though as its pretty useful to ramp up your damage quickly.

    Leveled to 110 in the shitty premade char gear they gave you which felt awful and you need to eat after every big pull but i reckon its gonna be a cake walk in anything 710/720+
    My exact same thoughts and talent choices while I've been leveling in beta. And yes, the premade character gear is abysmal and I feel for anyone that enters leveling at a 680 ilvl going into Legion content.

    Arcane is still extremely slow and sluggish, and I don't expect that to change in end game. Overall a real pain and I still have found myself needing to kite more than I would like to in solo content, which really, has been the same regardless of the spec I'm using to level. The slow spell has again became one of my go to spells, but ended up going back to frost for leveling.

    I'll again return to Arcane when our characters are wiped and we can use character copy. Should make the leveling experience less of a pain.

  17. #917
    Deleted
    I don't get the Cold Snap choice in levelling. It stops most of the possible damage going out white it would act mainly as an "oh crap" button. Shimmer will just mean travelling faster which is extremely important in solo levelling and it will average a better advantage I believe.

  18. #918
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Avikur View Post
    Can anyone give me a quick overview of which talents I should be using on the beta for solo questing and dungeons? I've not long had beta access so haven't got a clue which ones are best (I know tuning is ongoing but just to give me an idea for now)
    Dude, are you serious!?
    It is BETA! Go and test those Talents and provide feedback if some are inconvenient, bad or overpowered for leveling/dungeon and so on....
    What did you expect to do in beta!?

    BTW: if anyone of you got a beta key and doesn't want to test, I would like to get a chance....

  19. #919
    Quote Originally Posted by LI2Atronach View Post
    Dude, are you serious!?
    It is BETA! Go and test those Talents and provide feedback if some are inconvenient, bad or overpowered for leveling/dungeon and so on....
    What did you expect to do in beta!?

    BTW: if anyone of you got a beta key and doesn't want to test, I would like to get a chance....
    test for bugs? test the quests? test the dungeons? test the raid encounters when they are available?

    I'd happily test the talents more but not being able to change them unless you're in a rested area is a real pain in the ass for testing them.

    Thanks to the guys that gave me some ideas of the talents they use, Shadohw you said we don't use AB on AoE - is Arcane Explosion the way to go for AoE?
    Battletag: Chris#23952 (EU)
    Warlock

  20. #920
    Herald of the Titans Northem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LI2Atronach View Post
    Dude, are you serious!?
    It is BETA! Go and test those Talents and provide feedback if some are inconvenient, bad or overpowered for leveling/dungeon and so on....
    Yes, I was going to say the same... especially taking into account the amount of "inconvenient, bad or overpowered" talents/traits that still exists and should be changed...

    Maybe I'm crazy, but personally, I would prefer that there weren't better talent builds than others, because then, the freedom of choice that allows our customization irredeemably disappears, as everybody will always choose "the best" build for each type of content (aka the "cookie cutter" syndrome), what is precisely what we are seeing in these previous posts.

    What I mean is that the three talents of each row should be able to successfully fulfill the same purpose, in different ways ok, but in my view none of the three talents should be completely better than the other two, whatever the circumstances. Perhaps one can have more advantages than another for an specific type of content, that's assumable, however all three must be useful in greater or lesser extent for any content type.

    Talents should exist as a way to freely customize our characters: I would like to freely choose the talents which mechanics seem funnier to me, or perhaps the ones whose graphics I consider the cooler, but what I don't want is being forced to choose certain talents simply because they are "the best" for the type of content I am doing (questing, PvP, raids, etc ...).

    For all that's holy! If there is a predefined talent build for each type of content, then the ideal thing would be that we don't choose any talents, but they adjust themselves to fit the content of the game that we're facing (something that is already happening with PvP), which in my opinion would be pathetic...

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