[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Delimit]

I finally tore myself away from Overwatch long enough to finish up the grind to Charred Warblades.

30 second trash pull:


Single target boss, Xavius, my health only dropped below 80% 1 time all fight:


Agonizing Flames, Felblade and Fel Devastation.

[Promdates]

No sigil of flame or fiery brand?

[Delimit]

...of course.

Those were listings of relevant talents.

[Milocow]

umm is the defensive spikes change/nerf a real nerf from 50>30% or isit just a wording change?

[Delimit]

umm is the defensive spikes change/nerf a real nerf from 50>30% or isit just a wording change?

30% to 10%, yes.

[Orloth]

Is that just Leach from Soul Rending? Or do you have it on gear and/or legendary?

Either way, that is quite a lot of healing. I may have to just be corrected.

[Delimit]

That was just Soul Rending leech. The leech on the boss fight was a manual Meta cast and 1 FBP proc.

Also, that was running Blade Turning.

[Orloth]

How does the new Blade Turning feel?

[Zabbs]

@Ripstop, do you have a health over time vs healing over time curve for that data? I am really interested in how the healing of Charred Warblades works in practice. HRPS smoothing is the only real concern I have for Vengeance Demon Hunter currently and theoretically CB looks to solve that issue.

@Orloth, I know this isn't directed at me but I can say my experience with the new Blade Turning is positive. Even with the nerfs you are swimming in pain when DS is up. When you use Demon Spikes in appropriate content, you generally want to be quickly building pain anyway. Whether this is on a pull or to recover from a significant damage intake. This is very obvious in 5 man content where the chances of having a healer watching you at all times is kind of low (very obvious with most pug healers not understanding their class/role with the changes). Fracture isn't a very useful choice in 5 mans outside of boss encounters unless you have a group that is on point. You will probably be spamming Soul Cleave for DPS on trash packs either way. Trash is the only real challenge in 5 mans from my point of view. It gives the tier a nice balance of Mobility vs Multi Target vs Single Target with some depth and synergy across talent rows to the Single and Multi Target talents.

[Elamahpla]

what are the talents people are running?

right now im using something like this

i haven tried too many other things. maybe burning alive could be good in certain situations. spirit bomb also seems weird to me, but again, i haven't given it too much thought

[Trivs]

what are the talents people are running?

right now im using something like this

i haven tried too many other things. maybe burning alive could be good in certain situations. spirit bomb also seems weird to me, but again, i haven't given it too much thought

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...vengeance/MInM

I am running that at the moment, spirit bomb makes sense because a lot of soul fragments go into overhealing. You could get Soul Barrier but you'll lose Fel Blade, no thanks. Might aswell get some dmg in and have even more soul fragments (= more heals & more feed the demon procs). The other real option (50% leech in meta) could be useful but I feel that meta is a strong enough cooldown as it is, do we really need more?

I agree with u, burning alive is situational.

[Delimit]

Blade Turning feels pretty good. I've been running it non stop since the change, and I haven't missed Fracture as much as I thought I would.

Zaba, I do but it doesn't show much really, since the health pool was already so stable. On big trash pulls you can absolutely see the difference. I think on one trash pack, the initial Immolation Aura hit was a 500k heal. Unfortunately that kind of crazy healing relies on Immolation Aura/Agonizing Flames staying as strong as it currently is. If those get nerfed and you don't take Felblade, the healing potential will drop significantly.

what are the talents people are running?

Default dungeon running talents.

[Munkky]

what are the talents people are running?

right now im using something like this

i haven tried too many other things. maybe burning alive could be good in certain situations. spirit bomb also seems weird to me, but again, i haven't given it too much thought

What you are running is mostly fine, though you need to switch Fel Eruption for Agonizing Flames. Ago does more damage, even single target, than Fel Eruption and you don't have to waste pain on it or a GCD. Fel Eruption is useless in PvE right now. Burning Alive is ok, and can be used instead of Feast of Souls, though that depends on your Artifact Traits and how much you use Fiery Brand. Feast is easier, especially with Blade Turning.

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...vengeance/MInM

I am running that at the moment, spirit bomb makes sense because a lot of soul fragments go into overhealing. You could get Soul Barrier but you'll lose Fel Blade, no thanks. Might aswell get some dmg in and have even more soul fragments (= more heals & more feed the demon procs). The other real option (50% leech in meta) could be useful but I feel that meta is a strong enough cooldown as it is, do we really need more?

I agree with u, burning alive is situational.

Spirit Bomb is actually a loss of fragments currently. The Frail Debuff it gives isn't strong enough to outweigh the loss of a soul. Also the fact that its on the GCD, AND the damage from it is incredibly small, makes it a pointless talent currently. Etched in Blood was broken as of this past build so Soul Rending is the only viable talent. The leech only makes Meta better and is a welcome change, as its a primarily "active" defensive cooldown so the leech lowers the skill cap on it. We will see after todays Patch. Second, Feed the Demon is pretty much useless when using Blade Turning as you aren't proccing that many souls. While you can still use it, the DPS/healing gain from Fel Devastation far outweighs any Feed benefits.

[Zabbs]

@Ripstop thanks! That artifact node is kind of hard to quantify, but it obviously improves on a smoothing problem and increases the scaling of all of our stats. My interest in it's effect on trash packs is the same reason my build is like this currently:

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...vengeance/MBC0

I call it the stupid pug build. It's based around using CDs to mitigate trash packs and almost precasting Soul Cleave. Since Havoc Demon Hunters pulling extra adds with Fel Rush is the new Barrage and Healers don't seem to understand that I will take more damage at the beginning of a trash pack than at the end, this is what I have ended up with. I only think that the level 99, 100, and 110 talents are neccessary parts of this build. I have tried different variations of the other talents and I didn't feel like I lost a great deal of surviability. Heroic Dungeon bosses are not terribly threatening. I hope to vary it up soon with higher difficulty testing once some competent compatriots stop having issues with beta bugs. For now the difficulty of Beta seems to come more from other people learning the new game meta so I made my build mindless to make it easier to deal with mindless people.

[xskarma]

Wow, LOTS of changes. Going to be interesting to sift through all this.

[FenixAU]

Yeah, this is looking really interesting.

[Promdates]

Lets just go ahead and ignore the last page or so of this thread about talents. This talent tree shake-up is pretty big.

[xskarma]

Spell Changes

Demon Hunter (Forums, Talent Calculator, PvP Talent Calculator, Artifact Calculator)

• Eye Beam Blasts all enemies directly in front of you for [ 9 + 1,530% 765% of AP ] Chaos damage. 50 Fury. 20 yd range. 2 sec cast (Channeled). 45 sec cooldown.

Talents

• Agonizing Flames Immolation Aura increases your movement speed by 30%, and deals 100% 50% increased damage. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 30 Talent. 15 Talent.
• Blade Turning Parrying an attack while Demon Spikes is active increases the Pain generation of your next Shear by 100%. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 15 Talent. 50%. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 90 Talent.
• Burning Alive Every 2 sec, your Fiery Brand deals [ AP ] Fire damage and spreads from the primary target to a nearby enemy. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 75 Talent. 30 Talent.
• Fallout Immolation Aura's initial burst has a chance to shatter Lesser Soul Fragments from enemies.Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 30 Talent.
• Feast of Souls Soul Cleave heals you for an additional [ 390% of AP * Percent Health ] over 6 sec. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 75 Talent. 30 Talent.
• Feed the Demon Consuming a Soul Fragment reduces the remaining cooldown of Demon Spikes by 1 sec. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 100 Talent. 60 Talent.
• Fel Devastation Unleash the fel within you, damaging enemies directly in front of you for [ 10 + 1,650% of AP ] Fire damage over 2 sec. Causing damage also heals you for up to 0 health. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 100 90 Talent. 300 Pain. 20 yd range. 2 sec cast (Channeled). 60 sec cooldown.
• Fel Eruption Impales the target for [ 1,000% of AP ] Chaos damage and stuns them for 2 sec. Inflicts an additional 0% damage against targets permanently immune to stuns. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 30 Talent. 20 Fury / 200 75 Talent. 10 Fury / 100 Pain. 20 yd range. Instant. 35 sec cooldown.
• Flame Crash (New) Infernal Strike creates a Sigil of Flame when you land. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 45 Talent.
• Fracture Brutally slam your target for [ 420% of weapon damage + 840% of weapon damage ] Physical damage, and shatter two Lesser Soul Fragments from them. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 15 60 Talent. 400 Pain. Melee range. Instant.
• Gluttony (New) Consuming a Soul Fragment increases the damage of your next Soul Cleave by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 45 Talent.
• Last Resort Sustaining fatal damage instead transforms you to Metamorphosis form, and returns you to 30% health. This effect may only occur every 3 min. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 45 Talent. 100 Talent.
• Quickened Sigils All Sigils activate 1 second faster, and their range is increased by 10 yards. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 30 Talent. 75 Talent.
• Razor Spikes While Demon Spikes is active, you deal 20% increased Physical damage and, your melee attacks snare targets by 50% for 6 sec. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 90 Talent. 15 Talent.
• Soul Barrier Shield yourself for 8 sec, absorbing [ 800% of AP * Percent Health + 8% of AP * AP * Percent Health ] damage. Consuming a Soul Fragment adds [ 200% of AP * Percent Health ] to the shield. Soul Barrier's absorption cannot be reduced below [ AP * Percent Health ]. Consumes all Soul Fragments within 20 yds. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 100 Talent. 300 Pain. Instant. 20 sec cooldown.
• Spirit Bomb Launch a nearby Soul Fragment at your target, exploding for dealing [ 75% of AP ] Shadow damage in a 6 yd radius. Damaged enemies become Frail for 10 sec, increasing your chance to shatter Lesser Soul Fragments from them with Shear. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 60 Talent. 30 yd range. Instant. to all nearby enemies and afflicting them with Frailty for 15 sec. You heal for 5% of all damage you deal to enemies with Frailty. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 90 Talent. 40 yd range. Instant.

Vengeance

• Immolation Aura Engulf yourself in flames, instantly causing [ 330% [ 215% of AP ] Fire damage to enemies within 8 yards and radiating [ 75% [ 50% of AP ] Fire damage every sec. Lasts 6 sec. Generates 20 Pain over 6 sec. Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. Instant. 15 sec cooldown.
• Sigil of Misery Place a Sigil of Misery at the target location that activates after 2 sec. Causes all enemies affected by the sigil to cower in fear, disorienting them for 30 sec. Vengeance Demon Hunter - Level 90 Talent Demon Hunter - Vengeance Spec. 30 yd range. Instant. 60 sec cooldown.

- - - Updated - - -

May be important to note that Celestalon just said on twitter that DK talents beign datamined look like they have swicthed places, while in game they are still in the same order. So maybe we'll have to take any changes to the talents with a grain of salt.

[Deleted]

Huge Immolation nerf as expected, that leap sigil seems interesting.... I'd have to look at the talent trees to make sense of it but it looks good

[FenixAU]

May be important to note that Celestalon just said on twitter that DK talents beign datamined look like they have swicthed places, while in game they are still in the same order. So maybe we'll have to take any changes to the talents with a grain of salt.

The new talents wouldn't work without the reshuffling though. Wish the servers would hurry up.