Fury Legion Discussion

[Haveth]

this is not a simple matter of "rage management", it was a matter of conflicting rage-consumption. there is nothing to manage when all you SHOULD do is spend rage (ww + rampage) but now that ww is free, this clears things up nicely and has nothing to do with skill-cap.

I mean it doesn't matter either way, if you have enough rage for a rampage, whirlwind beforehand and end up just short of enough rage for rampage, worst case scenario you spend a global on FS and then Rampage. The buff from Meat Cleaver lasts long enough that it isn't that big of a deal if you don't rampage directly after. Even if BT comes off CD you can Meat Cleaver that, WW, then Rampage after.

I'd argue that WW isn't even conflicting rage management. Something like early Heroic Strike was, since it was a straight damage ability just like Rampage, but gained none of the bonuses that Rampage gave. But since WW is not only a damage ability, but also enables Meat Cleaving making it "worthy" of spending rage on. It's not really a big deal either way to me, sure free WW is nice, just not something that was particularly necessary, not gonna complain, it's basically a direct buff to Rampage-Enrage uptime.

On another note, is the GCD of Rampage fixed yet?

[Archimtiros]

I mean it doesn't matter either way, if you have enough rage for a rampage, whirlwind beforehand and end up just short of enough rage for rampage, worst case scenario you spend a global on FS and then Rampage. The buff from Meat Cleaver lasts long enough that it isn't that big of a deal if you don't rampage directly after. Even if BT comes off CD you can Meat Cleaver that, WW, then Rampage after.

It's not about the buff lasting long enough, it's about optimizing the GCD's and being efficient. If you do that and your Whirlwind pushes your Rampage back a GCD, now your Rampage is pushing your Bloodthirst back an extra GCD, which results in less rage generation overall. While that might not matter if it happens once or twice, done on a consistent basis over the course of a 5m+ encounter can account for a significant amount of rage.

I'd argue that WW isn't even conflicting rage management. Something like early Heroic Strike was, since it was a straight damage ability just like Rampage, but gained none of the bonuses that Rampage gave. But since WW is not only a damage ability, but also enables Meat Cleaving making it "worthy" of spending rage on. It's not really a big deal either way to me, sure free WW is nice, just not something that was particularly necessary, not gonna complain, it's basically a direct buff to Rampage-Enrage uptime.

Whirlwind is (was) absolutely conflicting, though again, it's not rage management (see above).

Spending rage on Whirlwind directly resulted in less rage to spend on Rampage, just as spending rage on Rampage directly resulted in less rage to spend on Whirlwind. What is that if not a conflict? What is better is irrelevant for the purpose of that point - as I said before, ultimately what happens is one is better than the other and supplants it rather than supplements it.

[Deleted]

Those are some interesting changes... Bladestorm heavily nerfed and Ravager buffed, along with the other AoE changes I wonder if Bladestorm is worth using outside of big AoE packs, 8/10/12+?

[Archimtiros]

Those are some interesting changes... Bladestorm heavily nerfed and Ravager buffed, along with the other AoE changes I wonder if Bladestorm is worth using outside of big AoE packs, 8/10/12+?

Fury still has Bladestorm as a talent, however it's on the T100 row now and Carnage moved down.

Arms had Bladestorm made baseline, with Ravager replacing it. In practical terms, not much changed; you'll simply talent Ravager for AoE instead of Bladestorm (which is actually better), but have Bladestorm available as an option for those times in which you want to prioritize Single Target talents, though I suspect they'll be few and far between.

[Haveth]

It's not about the buff lasting long enough, it's about optimizing the GCD's and being efficient. If you do that and your Whirlwind pushes your Rampage back a GCD, now your Rampage is pushing your Bloodthirst back an extra GCD, which results in less rage generation overall. While that might not matter if it happens once or twice, done on a consistent basis over the course of a 5m+ encounter can account for a significant amount of rage.



Whirlwind is (was) absolutely conflicting, though again, it's not rage management (see above).

Spending rage on Whirlwind directly resulted in less rage to spend on Rampage, just as spending rage on Rampage directly resulted in less rage to spend on Whirlwind. What is that if not a conflict? What is better is irrelevant for the purpose of that point - as I said before, ultimately what happens is one is better than the other and supplants it rather than supplements it.

It doesn't matter if you push Rampage back a GCD as long as you don't overcap on rage, With bloodthirst it's detrimental to push it back a GCD, but really you don't need to, you just BT anyway, and since you didn't have enough rage in this scenario to rampage right after WW you wouldn't overcap rage by pushing Rampage back.

I think everyone understood that since you spend rage on WW, you get less Rampages overall, but that's a tradeoff for allowing BT and Rampage to hit 5 targets. I think 15 rage is a rather cheap cost for that amount of benefit.

A moot argument anyway since WW is free now and the above doesn't matter.

[Archimtiros]

It doesn't matter if you push Rampage back a GCD as long as you don't overcap on rage, With bloodthirst it's detrimental to push it back a GCD, but really you don't need to, you just BT anyway, and since you didn't have enough rage in this scenario to rampage right after WW you wouldn't overcap rage by pushing Rampage back.

That's misguided thinking. It absolutely matters if pushing back Rampage causes you to consume your Meat Cleaver effect on Bloodthirst rather than on Raging Blow, with the only alternative being using another Whirlwind after and delaying Rampage (and Enrage) further.

I think everyone understood that since you spend rage on WW, you get less Rampages overall, but that's a tradeoff for allowing BT and Rampage to hit 5 targets. I think 15 rage is a rather cheap cost for that amount of benefit.

Then why did you say it wasn't a conflict? You say 15 (it was 10 actually) rage is cheap, but fail to put it in perspective. 10 may be a significantly lower number than Rampages 85(65), but it's also the same amount of rage generated by Bloodthirst, double that gained by Raging Blow, and used much more often than both.

We aren't talking about the decision to spend 15(10) rage to enable Rampage to hit 5 targets; we're talking about the decision to use Whirlwind at any other time outside of that. There are GCDs beyond those used on Bloodthirst, Rampage and the Meat Cleaver effect after all. The only option you're left with at that point is Furious Slash, which is fine, it buffs Bloodthirst, but it's damage pales in comparison to what you get out of Whirlwind on three or more targets. Thus, enter the conflict.

A moot argument anyway since WW is free now and the above doesn't matter.

Well it matters because you were arguing against it, and I was pointing out how it's actually a very good change. It may not be the change you wanted, but that doesn't reduce it in any way. But fair enough, no point in continuing, as I've made my points clear.

[Haveth]

That's misguided thinking. It absolutely matters if pushing back Rampage causes you to consume your Meat Cleaver effect on Bloodthirst rather than on Raging Blow, with the only alternative being using another Whirlwind after and delaying Rampage (and Enrage) further.



Then why did you say it wasn't a conflict? You say 15 (it was 10 actually) rage is cheap, but fail to put it in perspective. 10 may be a significantly lower number than Rampages 85(65), but it's also the same amount of rage generated by Bloodthirst, double that gained by Raging Blow, and used much more often than both.

We aren't talking about the decision to spend 15(10) rage to enable Rampage to hit 5 targets; we're talking about the decision to use Whirlwind at any other time outside of that. There are GCDs beyond those used on Bloodthirst, Rampage and the Meat Cleaver effect after all. The only option you're left with at that point is Furious Slash, which is fine, it buffs Bloodthirst, but it's damage pales in comparison to what you get out of Whirlwind on three or more targets. Thus, enter the conflict.



Well it matters because you were arguing against it, and I was pointing out how it's actually a very good change. It may not be the change you wanted, but that doesn't reduce it in any way.

I assume you meant Rampage and not Raging Blow, but no, it doesn't matter, you're just delaying a Rampage slightly without overcapping on rage. In that short window your enrage will be down longer, but overall your next rampage will come quicker since you passively build up rage beyond Rampage's cost while delaying it. It's similar to how Shadow Priests on live play with Shadow Orbs.

It's not a conflict because the benefit of Meat Cleaver vastly outshines the rage cost. You can have decisions on what to spend rage on without them being a conflict. When WW cost rage, it was suboptimal play to spam WW, you would use WW to proc Meat Cleaver or Meat Grinder then continue your normal rotation because cleaving your Rampages was more important than spamming WW.

Now that changed with WW being free. WW esentially turns into an AoE version of Furious slash that doesn't actually give any benefits to BT so you can just spam it all you want as filler. if WW gave the bonus crit chance, this would be fine, but as it is, the rotation seems counterintuitive in AoE. It's drilled into you that enabling enrage is the priority in ST aspects, then that all goes out the door and you simply just spam WW between BT CDs and Rampage when you hit enough rage paying no mind to when you're enraged (Which will be almost never since BT won't crit nearly as often as it would ST and the shorter Rampage-Enrage would come up just as often).

So yes, it does make the AoE rotation "simpler", but it's not intuitive, and it introduces problems like enrage never being available and thus becoming a worthless stat in any AoE scenario. Sure there are fixes like making BT cleave crits also trigger enrage, or having WW act similar to FS, but those hasn't been introduced yet so I'm criticizing this right now.

What's that old saying? 3 steps forward, 2 steps back.

Edit: If we want to get pedantic, one could argue that depending on the CD left on BT and the number of targets, pushing BT back is the right choice to get a full WW and Meat Cleaved BTs with enrage bonus.

[Pua]

Seems to me that Fury retains the problem it's had for years; its utter reliance on Enrage, which is something the player can't properly control.

Until that's sorted out, any other changes are superficial and amount to little more than window dressing. You can change Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, Rampage, Furious Slash and Whirlwind all you like - they're treating the effects of the problem, rather than the cause.

[Coffeh]

A moot argument anyway since WW is free now and the above doesn't matter.

It is free, but they also did remove the rage gained from using cleave Bloodthirst following a WW. At 4+ targets hit it's now a net rage loss compared to what it was.

[Flacko]

RIP Best AoE in Warcraft ... You will always be a piece of warriors Bladestorm ..

[Kaljurei]

Seems to me that Fury retains the problem it's had for years; its utter reliance on Enrage, which is something the player can't properly control.

Until that's sorted out, any other changes are superficial and amount to little more than window dressing. You can change Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, Rampage, Furious Slash and Whirlwind all you like - they're treating the effects of the problem, rather than the cause.

They could have fixed it in MoP or even WoD very easily. MoP was almost sound, the only problem was the low BT crit chance at lower gear levels, but even in Heart of Fear Fury was reasonably fluid, but led to problems with high crit and mastery on gear in SoO as Enrage uptime was a non-issue and so was rage.

In WoD they somewhat wanted to fix both levels, i.e the low and high gear levels, but unfortunately they removed CS and promoted Wild Strike which kinda completely detracted from their efforts to fix Enrage.

And Legion is....well a clusterfuck really. It's almost like they gave up on fixing Enrage because they're brain dead, and at the same time employing band aid fixes and half hearted measures to ensure that Enrage isn't completely useless i.e Furious Slash increasing BT crit chance and Rampage enraging us.

So it's not that they failed at fixing Enrage. It's that they did a lot of other stuff on the side which detracted from Enrage or even sort of overshadowed Enrage, ex. Legion. If they had merely focused on fixing Enrage in WoD i.e retain CS gameplay, introduce something else to fix Enrage uptimes or rage generation at least, it would have been easy enough to bring in Rampage later on in Legion and then remove CS.

It's really stupid that Arms has had CS since Cata and it's been kinda utterly unnecessary for Arms to even have it at all.

[Khelon]

A lot of these cooldowns not lining up isnt that difficult to fix, they dont have to cut the abilities.

- Heyla's wrath should reduce the cooldown of battlecry by 15 sec
- Bloodbath should be buffed a little and increase the cooldown by 15 sec
- Dragons roar should have 15 sec cd instead of 20, make it a little weaker as result
- Outburst should reduce the cooldown of berserker rage by 15 sec, so it lines up with the other abilities when you pick this

This way there is no problems with lining up cooldowns, you just have to decide depending on the encounter if you have to sit on the abilities for a little rather than using them on CD.

[Archimtiros]

So yes, it does make the AoE rotation "simpler", but it's not intuitive, and it introduces problems like enrage never being available and thus becoming a worthless stat in any AoE scenario. Sure there are fixes like making BT cleave crits also trigger enrage, or having WW act similar to FS, but those hasn't been introduced yet so I'm criticizing this right now.

You're criticizing a change because it's not the change you want, regardless of it's own merits.

I'm done going back and forth trying to explain this to you. At the risk of sounding haughty, suffice to say that I am much, much better at this than you and have been doing it for quite a long time. It matters, this change is good, and is a completely separate issue from the specs crit dependency, not to mention the fact that they don't want Enrage to be absolutely reliable. As I said before, yes, I would appreciate if WW stacked crit or if crit were baseline on BT, however, that is a wholly independent issue from Whirlwinds previous conflict with Rampage, which was the basis of this argument and as again was already stated.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems to me that Fury retains the problem it's had for years; its utter reliance on Enrage, which is something the player can't properly control.

Yes and no. On the one hand Fury is still completely reliant on Enrage due to the way it enhances the rotation. On the other hand, Enrage no longer gates the rotation and it's made more reliable by the inclusion of Rampage.

This is in sharp contrast to many previous builds, and players tend to forget the balancing process. While the frequency of Enrage has been reduced, the effect has been increased, as have many abilities base damage to compensate for the fact that their enhanced by Enrage less often.

TLDR: Enrage is still important, but it isn't as necessary to be up all the time as it used to be.

[Deleted]

A lot of talk about the new WW and bladestorm nerf.
My main concern of this build is massacre and carnage sharing the same tier. THIS is worst than that predictable BS nerf by miles.

[Ferozan]

A lot of talk about the new WW and bladestorm nerf.
My main concern of this build is massacre and carnage sharing the same tier. THIS is worst than that predictable BS nerf by miles.

It actually make sense for them to share a tier. Massacre and Carnage do not interact with each other.
In a massacre build, you would never use costing Rampage on a execute situation. You would rely on Free Rampages and BT Crits for Enrage during Execute.
In a Carnage build, you would probably never use Rampage on Sub-20%, unless you would cap. Note that as a 65 cost, if you used it almost capping rage, you could still fit an execute after it. This build also gives you the biggest number of Rampages during 100%-20%.
In a Frothing Berserker build, you have to play a cancerous Overcapping gameplay, but it gives you 10% damage, so there is that. It probably won't be viable because it gimps our Rampage numbers the most, but with a certain way of gameplay, you can have a 100% uptime on the buff during Execute phases.

[Bigbazz]

I go away for a few weeks and everything has changed, and prior to this nothing was changing.. Maybe I should just ignore beta more often. Not sure how I feel about Bladestorm being in the level 100 talent tier alongside Dragon Roar, it also got nerfed harder than I was expecting (30s cooldown increase) but I don't really mind since it now lines up nicely with Avatar, and I didn't care for stacking DR with BS gameplay.

Whirlwind being free also really improves the AOE (since now we can use Rampage), but I wasn't expecting Meat Grinder to become baseline. I was hoping Massacre would become baseline, guess not.

[satimy]

It's not about the buff lasting long enough, it's about optimizing the GCD's and being efficient. If you do that and your Whirlwind pushes your Rampage back a GCD, now your Rampage is pushing your Bloodthirst back an extra GCD, which results in less rage generation overall. While that might not matter if it happens once or twice, done on a consistent basis over the course of a 5m+ encounter can account for a significant amount of rage.



Whirlwind is (was) absolutely conflicting, though again, it's not rage management (see above).

Spending rage on Whirlwind directly resulted in less rage to spend on Rampage, just as spending rage on Rampage directly resulted in less rage to spend on Whirlwind. What is that if not a conflict? What is better is irrelevant for the purpose of that point - as I said before, ultimately what happens is one is better than the other and supplants it rather than supplements it.

Sorry but your argument is largely misleading. Every ability has an opportunity cost, but what's important is damage not rage. If you'd do more damage omitting whirlwind to save for a rampage then yea ww is a waste. But that's not always the case

[Deleted]

It actually make sense for them to share a tier. Massacre and Carnage do not interact with each other.
In a massacre build, you would never use costing Rampage on a execute situation. You would rely on Free Rampages and BT Crits for Enrage during Execute.
In a Carnage build, you would probably never use Rampage on Sub-20%, unless you would cap. Note that as a 65 cost, if you used it almost capping rage, you could still fit an execute after it. This build also gives you the biggest number of Rampages during 100%-20%.
In a Frothing Berserker build, you have to play a cancerous Overcapping gameplay, but it gives you 10% damage, so there is that. It probably won't be viable because it gimps our Rampage numbers the most, but with a certain way of gameplay, you can have a 100% uptime on the buff during Execute phases.

Yeah but with massacre you'll screw your dps before 20% ( i got a big feel of WOD arms 2.0)
With carnage you won't use rampage sub 20% so no more odyn champion.
Rampage is the new "iconic" skill of warrior coming in legion and for some bad design choices you may not use it at all sub 20%, that's sound so lame.
i Would say carnage is the best talent here and that's sad.
In either way you'll end up with a flawed rotation and it's up to you if you like to struggle from 100% to 20% or sub 20%.
Bad design , really.

[Artunias]

Yeah but with massacre you'll screw your dps before 20% ( i got a big feel of WOD arms 2.0)
With carnage you won't use rampage sub 20% so no more odyn champion.
Rampage is the new "iconic" skill of warrior coming in legion and for some bad design choices you may not use it at all sub 20%, that's sound so lame.
i Would say carnage is the best talent here and that's sad.
In either way you'll end up with a flawed rotation and it's up to you if you like to struggle from 100% to 20% or sub 20%.
Bad design , really.

^ this. It's not a well designed choice to have to make at all.

[Leyl]

You're criticizing a change because it's not the change you want, regardless of it's own merits.

I'm done going back and forth trying to explain this to you. At the risk of sounding haughty, suffice to say that I am much, much better at this than you and have been doing it for quite a long time. It matters, this change is good, and is a completely separate issue from the specs crit dependency, not to mention the fact that they don't want Enrage to be absolutely reliable. As I said before, yes, I would appreciate if WW stacked crit or if crit were baseline on BT, however, that is a wholly independent issue from Whirlwinds previous conflict with Rampage, which was the basis of this argument and as again was already stated.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes and no. On the one hand Fury is still completely reliant on Enrage due to the way it enhances the rotation. On the other hand, Enrage no longer gates the rotation and it's made more reliable by the inclusion of Rampage.

This is in sharp contrast to many previous builds, and players tend to forget the balancing process. While the frequency of Enrage has been reduced, the effect has been increased, as have many abilities base damage to compensate for the fact that their enhanced by Enrage less often.

TLDR: Enrage is still important, but it isn't as necessary to be up all the time as it used to be.

Totally agree with the changes to the AOE in practice as I've just tried it out. IT WORKS GREAT. Now, granted, the Dragon's Roar and some of the cooldowns need removal, or change to their timers, the actual AOE rotation is great. You just pop WW -> BT -> WW -> Rampage if you got the rage, else WW. Keep hitting BT off of CD after a WW. Ignore Furious Slash altogether as it is not needed. You don't need to be Enraged on an AOE rotation as the damage is good, and missing out on the AOE is a DPS loss. If you really wanna crit it up, just use Battlecry, saves you all the drama of Furious Slash altogether, and you get some good crits in there.