Legion - Assassination Discussion

[elfporn]

There is a major issue with Exsanguinate: it doesn't make Garrote's CD to reset 400% faster. This means that if you cast Garrote followed by Exsanguinate then: in four seconds Garrote will fade out; but it's CD will be 10s.
Oh and it also doesn't work with Hemorrhage: it doesn't tick faster.

So basically it's a dps gain only for Rupture.
I thought it could be interesting for ST dps, but the current implementation is really unsatisfying.

it's a dps gain, but only in short term - the DPE is the same. It's not useful at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Hemo has no DoT damage component. New talent is a prio target killer ability: apply garrote, press Exsanguinate, kill target and get reset via Thuggee

i take back what i said, Ensanguinate is a farming alternative to using envenom....on a 45 second cd.

edit:

just saw that celeshiton tried to explain himself, saying bloodsweat was too strong (maybe in sustained aoe situations) and that assassination base aoe will be buffed.

We shall see.

It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't replace blood sweat with such a garbage talent

[Deleted]

Can we please spread out on the Internet that they are making a mistake ?

They already nerved poison knife, now they remove Blood Sweat and now they talking of improving our AoE Capabilities?

Blood Sweat wasn't even an real Area of Effect - Dmg Ability, it was a spread ... but damn to powerful. Look at Fury Warriors they destroy everything with Bladestorm -.-

[Skayaq]

How much do you want to be all they will do is buff FoK damage?

[toolsv]

Bladestorm got aggressively tuned this very build. It was way over budget and wasn't a reasonable benchmark.

I hope they do something more interesting than just buffing FoK damage, but even if they do do it moving AoE damage from talents to baseline really helps let talents be real choices instead of forced ones.

[Wow]

They will probably buff fok 1% again and be done because they are terrible. Fok is like cata-mop rupture even if you buff it 100% it would be trash because it's dmg is just that terrible. And I don't see them buffing fok even a 100%. Sub's fok already hits twice with the artifact and we know how trash it is..

[elfporn]

They will probably buff fok 1% again and be done because they are terrible. Fok is like cata-mop rupture even if you buff it 100% it would be trash because it's dmg is just that terrible. And I don't see them buffing fok even a 100%. Sub's fok already hits twice with the artifact and we know how trash it is..

All celeshiton's justification says to me is that they're "done" with gameplay and took a moment to look at talents for the first time in months and decided that the talents had the choices in certain rows werent "interesting". A very subjective argument, but whatever, if it means they actually do something with our shit talent choices, then fine, do it so we can have something else to bitch and moan about.

That's not to say all our talents suck, they were just created by idiots who have no grasp of the class

[Wow]

All celeshiton's justification says to me is that they're "done" with gameplay and took a moment to look at talents for the first time in months and decided that the talents had the choices in certain rows werent "interesting".

I think it less about that and more about the retarded talent lockout they put in. Making so many specs 100% dependent on swapping talents every pull to do any dmg aoe vs single. Because of the shit storm they know it will be on live they had to make some changes to make it not as bad. But it will still be a terrible restriction either way.

Meanwhile rogues will be swapping specs still and having a massive artifact grind because reasons.

[Deleted]

Even if it is not that great in terms of dpe, I still like the idea of it, 100% more than a passive aoe. The first thing I thought of was putting all my bleeds up with hemo, using this, and 5-8 kiting a warrior while he has a period. Made me smile.

Picking it over antagonizing (right word?) poison will be tough, I like the idea of that talent.

[Deleted]

Exsanguinate for killer button on PvP ^^
Disappointed removed Blood sweat =(

I think the changes that should be made are :
- Nightstalker(removed) replaced by Agonizing Poison
- Thuggee replaced by Blood sweat
- Agonizing Poison replaced by Flying daggers(PvP talent)
- Flying daggers replaced by Thuggee[The Garrote silence effect works out camouflage, but its cooldown is increasing 50%.]
- Venom Rush replaced by Overkill
- Death from Above replaced by Dispatch
- And Blind(not break DoT) for Assassination ...
ENJOY !!! =)

[omeomorfismo]

Just perfect ... Sub WoD 2.0, why do we need such a thing? What the hell are they thinking, why are the Devs for rogue such a ... (if they are even rogue specify devs, wich I doubt)?

I am a master of POSIONS .... P O I S O N S ... what is their obsession with bleeds? We are the only rogue spec with the iconic mechanism of poisons, we had for years, stolen from the other 2 specs. Now we are going to be ferals.

This talent is nothing what assa needs nor whats nor is looking forward to. Is there a Dev at Blizz that just likes to f**k us up?

The whole braket is now: 1.Hey take a poison that does no dmg but your bleeds will, 2. Ramp up of Death, 3. No you won't gonna do Envenom, your bleeds will do the Dmg ... yeah Master of Posions we are.

Blizzard Entertainment / Blizzard Activion - Destroyer of Dreams and Masters of Class Identity (I'm gonna send them a Stature of a Rogue bleeding to death with a dagger in his back and this title engraved in the base.

you know what poisons do? they containate blood from wounds or mucous membranes. since we are melee the "obsession" for bleeds is perfect and in line with the fantasy of an assassin, because, i repeat, without wounds our poisons simply cant envenom the opponent, and more wounds means more poisons that enter in the victim's blood.

however, i dont do the math, but the new talent dont improve the EPS? allowing to use less rupture before matching the consume of energy for fok spam and energy regen. so we have a worse aoe dps but a better aoe burst than the previous iteration?

[Geckoo]

you know what poisons do? they containate blood from wounds or mucous membranes. since we are melee the "obsession" for bleeds is perfect and in line with the fantasy of an assassin, because, i repeat, without wounds our poisons simply cant envenom the opponent, and more wounds means more poisons that enter in the victim's blood.

The problem is not about having bleeds, the problem is about bleeds taking all of the spec's identity.

We should be dealing with different types of poisons to coat our weapons, deadly toxins, vials, gas...
But we are dealing with different ways to enhance our bleeds and the only active talent related to poisons actually removes their damage.

Too much focus on the wounds and too little focus on how we exploit that wound.

[omeomorfismo]

The problem is not about having bleeds, the problem is about bleeds taking all of the spec's identity.

We should be dealing with different types of poisons to coat our weapons, deadly toxins, vials, gas...
But we are dealing with different ways to enhance our bleeds and the only active talent related to poisons actually removes their damage.

Too much focus on the wounds and too little focus on how we exploit that wound.

but we are assassin, master of poisons; not master of poisons, assassin. we use poisons to murder, we arent alchemist with a love for toxins. so, imo, the weapons imbued are the way, no theatrical things like vials and clouds, we need discretion... but maybe i will love a poisoned spite (like a little cone that could replace blind) XD

then we play a videogame that need balance, so the math limit the number of effective mechanics. hence we realistically can have only 2 or maybe 3 dps poisons (counting the pvp poison)

however i dont things that the energy regen is "too little focus on how we exploit". basically a wound allows a better poisoning and in game more bleeds give more energy, so more spell, hence more proc of poisons and uptime of envenom's buff. i find this simple and perfect

[Wow]

The issue with the bleeds being your main dmg is nothing was changed about the spec to support it. The mastery is near useless unless you take agonizing poison which is only good because it buffs the bleed dmg lol. And any talent that buffs poison dmg that competes with a bleed dmg talent auto loses. It doesn't make any sense kind of like sub and combat next to nothing about the changes to them make any sense.

This is why rupture has ridiculous ap scaling because nothing about the spec supports its dmg so it has to stand on its own.

[elfporn]

The problem is not about having bleeds, the problem is about bleeds taking all of the spec's identity.

We should be dealing with different types of poisons to coat our weapons, deadly toxins, vials, gas...
But we are dealing with different ways to enhance our bleeds and the only active talent related to poisons actually removes their damage.

Too much focus on the wounds and too little focus on how we exploit that wound.

There are fewer sources of bleed damage than poison damage. Not all poisons are DoTs or weapon applications.

Hemo, rupture, garrote, and set bonus:mutilate. Vs deadly poison, envenom, poison daggers, poison vial, venomous wounds, kingsbane, the other major artifact trait adding poison daggers to vendetta. i'm missing one i can't think of.

Rupture is a large portion of assassination damage and always has been. That's not changed. But it's not nearly the focus of the spec.

[Geckoo]

however i dont things that the energy regen is "too little focus on how we exploit". basically a wound allows a better poisoning and in game more bleeds give more energy, so more spell, hence more proc of poisons and uptime of envenom's buff. i find this simple and perfect

And that's part of the problem. The few poison related stuff that the spec still has are mostly passive mechanics. Even envenom has lost some of his place thanks to this feral druid approach, our mastery also feels out of place.

Making the spec have the apropiate theme is not hard, it's mostly about artwork, text, naming and the kind of damage we deal.

Using a nature damage dot instead of garrote, making exsanguinate be about a toxin that accelerates bleeding, having a talent that allows us to use two lethal poisons...

[Deleted]

talent that allows us to use two lethal poisons...

Deadly brew in PvP talents.
@omeomorfismo : +1 for fantasy class

[omeomorfismo]

And that's part of the problem. The few poison related stuff that the spec still has are mostly passive mechanics. Even envenom has lost some of his place thanks to this feral druid approach, our mastery also feels out of place.

Making the spec have the apropiate theme is not hard, it's mostly about artwork, text, naming and the kind of damage we deal.

Using a nature damage dot instead of garrote, making exsanguinate be about a toxin that accelerates bleeding, having a talent that allows us to use two lethal poisons...

i wrote this before, but i repeat. poisons are passive, there isnt nothing that can change this. when i think to an assassin i think he that coat is knife, hit a strike and wait the death of the victim. or he poison a buffet and wait that the toxins do the dirty job.
all the flavor of a poison is "i will be an asshole, quickly hit and then wait to taste the pain on my victim face" but this isnt possible in a balanced rpg scenario, so they must focus on the application of the poisons, and imo they do a good job.
yes, maybe the % of damage on recount isnt so high, but who cares about the %, all the kit is centered to increase the number of proc. its all

[Geckoo]

yes, maybe the % of damage on recount isnt so high, but who cares about the %, all the kit is centered to increase the number of proc. its all

The kit has always been about increasing the number of poison procs, but in legion's current state, is more about keeping up two bleeds than it is about micromanaging envenom uptime.

The point is that the spec fantasy was better represented when we used to keep up rupture not because it dealt a lot of damage (it didn't), but because venomous wounds did a lot of damage.

It's about the transition from a model that used to have a bleed as a way to keep up energy for the envenom gameplay to a model that has poisons as a way to keep up energy to refresh bleeds. We need both, no one questions that... but poisons (as a theme, not just as an ability) have always been the main focus and legion is changing that with, at least with the current state.

[omeomorfismo]

The kit has always been about increasing the number of poison procs, but in legion's current state, is more about keeping up two bleeds than it is about micromanaging envenom uptime.

The point is that the spec fantasy was better represented when we used to keep up rupture not because it dealt a lot of damage (it didn't), but because venomous wounds did a lot of damage.

It's about the transition from a model that used to have a bleed as a way to keep up energy for the envenom gameplay to a model that has poisons as a way to keep up energy to refresh bleeds. We need both, no one questions that... but poisons (as a theme, not just as an ability) have always been the main focus and legion is changing that with, at least with the current state.

in current state we have 3 bleed counting hemo when the poisons are 5. the focus isnt changed...

hovewer with the new talent with only 1 rupture and a garrote we reach ~33 Eps, so we can spam fok without problem, isnt a better aoe burst?

[Lorentz]

in current state we have 3 bleed counting hemo when the poisons are 5. the focus isnt changed...

hovewer with the new talent with only 1 rupture and a garrote we reach ~33 Eps, so we can spam fok without problem, isnt a better aoe burst?

Hemo is not a bleed. Read the bloody tooltip