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  1. #81
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    So, I have to ask, why would someone quit because LFR is in the game? I am not quitting over the fact arena is in the game. How does having a feature that doesn't affect them unless they queue for it have anything to do with them?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokenuf View Post
    I've been streaming a LOT of Beta lately and Flying is one of the questions I get asked the most. When I explain the criteria for the achievements and tell them that most of It you gain it by simply playing and doing whatever you would do a regular afternoon of Legion and then compare it to Warlords most of my viewers seem very pleased with the changes.
    Setting aside the fact that Legion Pathfinder Part 1 will take longer than Draenor Pathfinder my question is this - How do they react after you explain that the achievement doesn't award flying and there's actually nothing to prove we'll ever get it besides vague promises? Or do you skip that part?

  3. #83
    Most of the people I game with are on board, just waiting for pre-patch to hit.
    Summon Apollo's fire, with hell and heaven's might. Then with great force attend, the falling of all men.
    Release this captured world, from point of no return. Destruction has no end, unless you ride again.


  4. #84
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post

    I think blizzard realizes how much damage they've caused to perception over the years and how this xpac has to be good enough that the word of mouth is enough to generate old player interest.
    Good. Luck. With. That.

    Let's look at just the PvP side of the game for example: PvP will be all RNG boxes in Legion, which they've tried to slowly get players used to with Ashran and RBG RNG boxes in WoD. That's the exact opposite of what most PvP'ers play for. RNG drops are one big reason why they don't raid or raid very little. But this has been Blizz's plan all along to drag out sub times while spending less overhead on new content.

    Also, the best gear will be available to only the higher CR ranks in Rated. Non-hardcore (non-cheating/scripting) players will be forever stuck with an 8% or more disadvantage, which will quickly burn them out, and will only encourage further cheating, wintrading, pilots to get the top gear. On and on and on.

    Blizz loves the scripters though because per capita they spend much more on the game than others do, and their streams on Twitch and YT vids are free advertisement for Blizz, which the streamers also make money on from the ads they support. I scratch your back, you scratch mine.

    Many PvP'ers have already gone to Overwatch (where coincidentally Blizz won't tolerate cheating...hmm), which is fine with Blizz because they just got another $60. out of them.

    Blizzard only does things to the game that will generally increase profit in some way, either short term or down the road. Anyone who believes otherwise is either naive or willfully ignorant.
    Last edited by Caolela; 2016-06-03 at 03:08 PM.

  5. #85
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Plastkin View Post
    So yeah, the exact same mechanics being added to WoW that are in D3 when a lead from D3 moves to WoW is some how "full blown fallacies" and people who are being willfully ignorant about the huge problems in Legion are not consistent with that comic?

    How's life treating you at this point?

    Assuming they're making the skins unlockable just so people spend more time collecting them is a fallacy, claiming artifact power is the same as paragon levels is a fallacy : paragon levels are a follow up for regular levels, and are shared between all of your characters, awhile you gain artifact power during leveling aswell as once you reached the level cap, also, artifact power is tied to one character, enunciate things and claim they're bad without ever explaining why they are is a fallacy, putting words in the mouth of someone else itself is a fallacy anyway.

    So I'm guessing you didn't actually ever do that content? I just ran all over it on beta without flying because it's still behind pathfinder and I never once had an issue with it. I had no problem running right up mountains and over to the next zones, etc. I moved from point A to point B in mostly straight lines just like I would with flying. The main difference? Flying is only about twice as fast.

    You also pretend like you can't encounter the opposite faction at the questing area? So someone running around on a mount on a trail somewhere is the prime location for world PvP? Flight masters aren't some kind of focal point? People move around zones solely by way of running, right? There's no gliding, no feathers, no water striders, no flightpaths, nor over mountains where most people don't go, just people constrained to run through narrow paths where you can ambush them, right?

    Have you ever actually played a game with great world PvP? At best you have some shit tier player (perhaps yourself) who tries to grab a gank on people who have no interest in PvPing you (why don't you just go kill mobs, it's the same thing) who will try that strategy. Real PvPers are over there in arenas at 2400+ or going around in groups actually taking down populated areas and defending them. I've only seen bad players complaining about world PvP being "ruined" by flying. Only half of the realms are PvP enabled and I'd bet 100% of people on PvP realms aren't out trying to kill people on random paths or hills in the world? Sounds like a real problem guys.
    Yes, someone running around on a mount on a trail somewhere is the prime location for World PvP, people don't move around zones solely by way of running, but it might be tricky to quest and farm if you're counting on travelling only through flight masters, gliding, feathers and water strides wont stop you from killing people, actually, some abilities can counter and even disable these

    Yes, I have played a game with great world PvP, World of Warcraft. You seem to think the point of world PvP is to seek for a challenge against other players, why would it be ? The reason why I prefer killing a player over a mob, is because there is someone controlling the character, not because it makes it harder to succeed, but because it's funnier when have in mind that the "thing" you just killed is an actual player and not just a script.

    "going around in groups actually taking down populated areas and defending them" No, the persons you call "real pvpers" don't do that. It's as much as a challenge as ganking people is, i'd even say it is worse. Mass combat is even more of a nobrainer than ganking.

    The reason why you have only seen bad players complaining about world PvP being ruined might have something to do with the fact that most of the players in this game are uninterested in getting good and will be perceived as bad to anyone that isn't as clueless.


    That's false: https://realmpop.com/us.html. This agrees with wowprogress (which is mostly active-player tracking) so I'll take two data points using actual data as more accurate than this assumption.
    https://realmpop.com/eu.html
    There are more players on PvP servers in Europe.
    According to Wowprogress, the most populated servers in China, Korea, Taiwan, and Russia, are overwhelmingly PvP. So no, it is not false, PvP servers are the most popular, in fact, there are only a few PvP servers in certain of these regions, only in North America and Oceania people are playing on PvE servers.
    Last edited by mmocafdd20634a; 2016-06-03 at 03:35 PM.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    *Flying is sorted. You can't until the last patch. Just like WoD. Deal with it.
    Got a source for that?

    Yah didn't think so.
    I am not pro Flight, I am pro a better more engaging game. I just took the pro flight stance cause I knew Blizzard couldn't deliver. Looks like I was right

  7. #87
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    So does not playing the game, so again the anti flight people have no argument

    So does crz

    So does dungeon finder

    So does bg ques

    So do arena ques
    And ?
    Not playing the game, Crz, dungeon finders, bg queues and arena queues, are worth it, I prefer arenas over world PvP, I prefer world PvP over flying, I prefer being able to log out of the game over world PvP, I prefer the game to match me with people instead of having to spam in capitals, even if it's done at the expense of World PvP, what's your point ?
    Anti flight people have just as much arguments as pro flight people, most of them rely on taste. And conspiracy theories are not arguments, they're just made up.
    Last edited by mmocafdd20634a; 2016-06-03 at 03:47 PM.

  8. #88
    You shouldn't want that first friend back anyways

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Youn View Post
    So, I have to ask, why would someone quit because LFR is in the game? I am not quitting over the fact arena is in the game. How does having a feature that doesn't affect them unless they queue for it have anything to do with them?
    LFR undermines the motivation to build a positive reputation within the server community and that leads to a much more toxic and/or apathetic social atmosphere server wide. This is the biggest reason why vanilla servers are popular and also why sub numbers started dropping in cataclysm. LFR is not going away but people should be given an option for server only groups because cross realm groups make it feel like there is no reason to help,cooperate, etc with somebody they will never see again.

  10. #90
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshko View Post
    You are wrong. The distribution is almost 50/50. And you assume that all PvP servers are actually doing any PvP. Reality is very very different.

    How much PvP do you think the largest PvP servers see? Let's check the top 3 PvP servers in each region:

    Illidan US - 97% Horde
    Azralon PT - 96% Horde
    Sargeras US - 99.2% Alliance

    Twisting Nether EU - 98.9% Horde
    Kazzak EU - 99.3% Horde
    Гордунни RU - 97% Alliance.

    Yeah some major PvP going on there I'm sure. Epic battles all around. Being outnumbered on average 98 to 1 is conductive to truly astounding feats of world PvP I've heard.

    And it was very easy to hit 80 in WotLK without flying - you were done in about 4 zones, as in before ever setting foot in Storm Peaks or Icecrown.
    PvP servers are not only about "epic battles", they're more about ganking, when creating a character on PvP servers, all these persons agreed to being able to gank and being ganked. Even when ountnumbered, you will be able to gank some people.

    "You were done in about 4 zones"
    Northrend has 8 pexing zones, which includes Icecrown and Storm peaks, Borean Tundra and Howling Tundra which are both 68-72 and completing either of these made the other one almost obsolete. As for Sholazar, Zul'Drak and Grizzly Hills, they didn't have much quests, I think you're exagerating.
    Last edited by mmocafdd20634a; 2016-06-03 at 03:58 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevene View Post
    And ?
    Not playing the game, Crz, dungeon finders, bg queues and arena queues, are worth it, I prefer arenas over world PvP, I prefer world PvP over flying, I prefer being able to log out of the game over world PvP, I prefer the game to match me with people instead of having to spam in capitals, even if it's done at the expense of World PvP, what's your point ?
    Anti flight people have just as much arguments as pro flight people, most of them rely on taste. And conspiracy theories are not arguments, they're just made up.
    i don't understand your post

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Let's look at just the PvP side of the game for example: PvP will be all RNG boxes in Legion
    This kind of RNG is not as egregious due to nothing mattering in pvp besides ilvl and slot. They've also talked about how it won't be true rng and there will basically be bad luck protection so that its more biased towards giving you things you haven't already gotten so you aren't just swimming in duplicates while having a slot completely neglected.

    This kind of RNG is massively different than the kind of RNG we'd experience if the pvp system had not been overhauled and the stats on the gear actually mattered for pvp or if trinkets still worked or set bonuses etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Also, the best gear will be available to only the higher CR ranks in Rated. Non-hardcore (non-cheating/scripting) players will be forever stuck with an 8% or more disadvantage, which will quickly burn them out, and will only encourage further cheating, wintrading, pilots to get the top gear. On and on and on.
    It would require an 80 ilvl gap for a player to have an 8% disadvantage. Currently an 8% power difference is something like 5-6 ilvls, not 80. This is a MASSIVE improvement for players entering pvp late into the season or ones who gear up slowly as instead of a 200%+ power difference and easily being able to be 1shot they'll actually have a small enough power difference that a skilled player will be able to beat the guy 80 ilvls above him.

    This is not to mention that the two players likely won't ever meet in rated pvp in the first place, since in order for you to have those 80 ilvls above the other player you'd need to have gotten a rather high rating / mmr which would cause you to never be matched with someone 80 ilvls below you. Players will likely be matched with players with a siimilar ilvl by virtue with the only anomaly being high geared pve players jumping into pvp for the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Many PvP'ers have already gone to Overwatch (where coincidentally Blizz won't tolerate cheating...hmm), which is fine with Blizz because they just got another $60. out of them.
    It's a great game, been playing lots of it this last week. Tons of fun.

    Also something great to pass the time until there's new content since a lot of players ran out of content sometime last year in wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Blizzard only does things to the game that will generally increase profit in some way, either short term or down the road. Anyone who believes otherwise is either naive or willfully ignorant.
    I hear improving the game so that people want to play it and pay for the box and monthly sub is a pretty decent way to increase profits.

    I'd agree that its a long shot to really garner much real interest. I think it'd be massive for blizzard if they managed to stop the bleeding yet alone increase numbers. But yeah there's just a bad taste in peoples mouths from the way the game has been heading for years now and for many I doubt it possible to get that taste out.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2016-06-03 at 04:01 PM.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  13. #93
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    i don't understand your post
    I wouldn't trade arenas, dungeon finder, etc for more World PvP and having a route i'm meant to follow and getting to experience it, but would definitely trade flying for these.
    Also, I personally think it'd better if you had to walk to the dungeon at least once before you can teleport to it, just like in Cataclysm
    You never had to walk to the arenas and the matchmaking always been the only way to access it, you've never been meant to follow a certain route, so you don't miss on anything at all
    Also, why would you assume anti flight support CRZ ?

    My first post didn't make sense because I thought you were replying to another of my posts, sorry.
    Last edited by mmocafdd20634a; 2016-06-03 at 04:18 PM.

  14. #94
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    From the other side of the conversation...

    Me: So, it's just a wonderful expansion better than the past ones, right?
    Them: Yep. You should definitely come back.
    Me: Didn't you say that WoD was a wonderful expansion better than the past ones?
    Them: Well, yeah. But this is different.
    Me: How?
    Them: This has a new class and class halls, and the new stuff is amazing.
    Me: But this is the first new class with only two specs, right?
    Them: Yeah, but {Blizz excuse}
    Me: And class halls are pretty much just garrisons where more than just your friends can congregate, right?
    Them: Yeah, but {Blizz excuse}
    Me: And every expansion that has ever come out has been new stuff like artifacts and epic opening quests that are amazing, right?
    Them: Yeah, but this is different.
    Me: How?
    Them: ...well...it looks really cool, and is different than WoD...
    Me: Every expansion looks really cool when it first comes out, right?
    Them: Well, yeah.
    Me: And every expansion does something that is different than the prior expansion, right?
    Them: Well, yeah.
    Me: So, why should I come back?
    Them: Because it's quite good, artifacts, epic opening quest, etc, etc...
    Me: /facepalm

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokenuf View Post
    I've been streaming a LOT of Beta lately and Flying is one of the questions I get asked the most. When I explain the criteria for the achievements and tell them that most of It you gain it by simply playing and doing whatever you would do a regular afternoon of Legion and then compare it to Warlords most of my viewers seem very pleased with the changes.
    The rep grind isn't something you normally do stop misleading your viewers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshko View Post
    Setting aside the fact that Legion Pathfinder Part 1 will take longer than Draenor Pathfinder my question is this - How do they react after you explain that the achievement doesn't award flying and there's actually nothing to prove we'll ever get it besides vague promises? Or do you skip that part?
    *Grabs popcorn* I want to hear the answer to this!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Good. Luck. With. That.

    Let's look at just the PvP side of the game for example: PvP will be all RNG boxes in Legion, which they've tried to slowly get players used to with Ashran and RBG RNG boxes in WoD. That's the exact opposite of what most PvP'ers play for. RNG drops are one big reason why they don't raid or raid very little. But this has been Blizz's plan all along to drag out sub times while spending less overhead on new content.

    Also, the best gear will be available to only the higher CR ranks in Rated. Non-hardcore (non-cheating/scripting) players will be forever stuck with an 8% or more disadvantage, which will quickly burn them out, and will only encourage further cheating, wintrading, pilots to get the top gear. On and on and on.

    Blizz loves the scripters though because per capita they spend much more on the game than others do, and their streams on Twitch and YT vids are free advertisement for Blizz, which the streamers also make money on from the ads they support. I scratch your back, you scratch mine.

    Many PvP'ers have already gone to Overwatch (where coincidentally Blizz won't tolerate cheating...hmm), which is fine with Blizz because they just got another $60. out of them.

    Blizzard only does things to the game that will generally increase profit in some way, either short term or down the road. Anyone who believes otherwise is either naive or willfully ignorant.
    Yup there are bigger issues with Legion than flying and talent restrictions. This is exhibit A right here folks. RNG boxes for PVP is going to kill rated ladders and random queues.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevene View Post
    PvP servers are not only about "epic battles", they're more about ganking, when creating a character on PvP servers, all these persons agreed to being able to gank and being ganked. Even when ountnumbered, you will be able to gank some people.

    "You were done in about 4 zones"
    Northrend has 8 pexing zones, which includes Icecrown and Storm peaks, Borean Tundra and Howling Tundra which are both 68-72 and completing either of these made the other one almost obsolete. As for Sholazar, Zul'Drak and Grizzly Hills, they didn't have much quests, I think you're exagerating.
    9
    I feel like this is a new-player mentality response. PvP servers are the catalysts to epic battles. But the game hardly allows for that, now. It's the problem with the game now. Ganking is not the primary reason for them, either; it's just a consequence.

    And, really, Northrend was done in four zones. Howling Fjord->Dragonblight(not finish it, about 1/2)->Grizzly Hills(about 1/2-3/4 of it)->Zul'Drak->Sholazar Basin OR Storm Peaks(only first 1/3 of it)

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    LFR undermines the motivation to build a positive reputation within the server community and that leads to a much more toxic and/or apathetic social atmosphere server wide. This is the biggest reason why vanilla servers are popular and also why sub numbers started dropping in cataclysm. LFR is not going away but people should be given an option for server only groups because cross realm groups make it feel like there is no reason to help,cooperate, etc with somebody they will never see again.
    Subs started dropping when ICC went on for a year (there was a 300k sub drop during the WotLK content drought), then after Cata launched the subs began dropping by hundreds of thousands every quarter. Ironically, contrary to your argument, 4.3 (which introduced LFR to the game) saw the sub drop completely stabilized for a quarter before it picked back up. Blaming the sub drops in Cata on something that only came in Cata's last patch is... interesting.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    LFR undermines the motivation to build a positive reputation within the server community and that leads to a much more toxic and/or apathetic social atmosphere server wide. This is the biggest reason why vanilla servers are popular and also why sub numbers started dropping in cataclysm. LFR is not going away but people should be given an option for server only groups because cross realm groups make it feel like there is no reason to help,cooperate, etc with somebody they will never see again.
    im not sure why you think this way, but most people have more reasons not to be a dick to someone, besides knowing they will meet them again.

  19. #99
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrixi View Post
    9
    I feel like this is a new-player mentality response. PvP servers are the catalysts to epic battles. But the game hardly allows for that, now. It's the problem with the game now. Ganking is not the primary reason for them, either; it's just a consequence.

    And, really, Northrend was done in four zones. Howling Fjord->Dragonblight(not finish it, about 1/2)->Grizzly Hills(about 1/2-3/4 of it)->Zul'Drak->Sholazar Basin OR Storm Peaks(only first 1/3 of it)
    There are no epic battles, there never been epic battles, just people zerging into each other and dying instantly over and over because there are just too many players around (And thus, what you're doing barely matters), whenever that would happen, people would gather before fighting, which strips away all the fun of World PvP imo, unpredictability is one the funniest parts of World PvP in my view, and somehow people enjoy giant zergfest, it's just not my cup of tea... I guess

    There were 8 leveling zones in Northrend

    1. Borean Tundra
    2. Howling Fjord
    3. Dragonblight
    4. Zul'Drak
    5. Grizzly Hills
    6. Sholazar Bassin
    7. Storm Peaks
    8. Icecrown

    Crystal song forest had about no quest and Wintergrasp was a PvP zone
    Last edited by mmocafdd20634a; 2016-06-03 at 04:38 PM.

  20. #100
    I asked my sister who split up with her boyfriend recently and she said she'd play, so there's that I guess.

    My guild of real life friends, 95% quit at the end of Firelands. They're pretty much done with the game forever due to starting families and university. The other 5% of us still play although in separate guilds but we talk about the game often still.

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