[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Orloth]

So about 60%, then. That's an odd number, but we'll go with it for now. Thanks!

[Milocow]

Soul barrier consumes all souls on use for bonus shield strength right?

When it consumes souls i guess the souls still heal you as per normal? Or isit sacrificed for soul barrier?

[Orloth]

Looking at Delimit's earlier Log, it seems like Souls are contributing to both healing and Soul Barrier's shield the three times Soul Barrier comes up. So it looks like they're healing like normal.

[Delimit]

Yes, you get the heals and the barrier. All souls are consumed. There's no benefit to any overhealing now though.

[Akeldema]

I'm getting really inconsistant numbers on the spawn %, I'll probably sit down later and try and do 500 or 1000 casts

[Delimit]

Yeah, I did 2 sets. One set was 88% spawn rate, and the other set was 75%. I didn't have the patience to get a proper sample size done. We can probably just ask in the theorycrafting questions thread for Blizzard.

[Akeldema]

Could do, probably the best way to get a solid answer. though sitting at the dummy is something to do while waiting for these horrific dungeon queues

500 casts of immolation aura, 329 soul procs, 65.8% proc rate

[FenixAU]

Preface: I've been tanking since 31/5/15 warrior days in Molten Core, from wiping on the first two molten giants and the first firelord, all the way to the present day.

Running Fallout/Felblade/Fracture/Fel Eruption/Blade Turning. Possibly not the most effective setup.. but it is by far the most fun tanking spec (fun is subjective, though) they've ever made. It's so frenetic.

Also Sigil of Misery as baseline is pretty handy, even if it does break pretty much on any damage.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

Is Razor Spikes worth using now that it has the physical damage increase again? It seems like Fracture and Feed the Demon being on the same tier takes away a bit of the effectiveness that it used to have.

[Munkky]

Is Razor Spikes worth using now that it has the physical damage increase again? It seems like Fracture and Feed the Demon being on the same tier takes away a bit of the effectiveness that it used to have.

Razor Spikes is worth it, and is looking to be the "higher skill cap for higher damage" talent in its row, though I have only done math and need to test but I'm fairly positive this to be true, and it is the first row. If you were talking about Soul Rending then no it is not worth in comparison to Feed the Demon or Fracture.

From the way its looking based on Fallout, IF fallout stays the same, with proccing based on enemies hit instead of the cast of it, FTD will more than likely be the Trash/Add talent and Fracture being the Raid boss talent.

[mindw0rk]

How they made 104 row so incredibly difficult to choose from in PvP (everything is awesome), while 106 row has no choice at all (Fel Eruption is vastly superior to other talents)?

Also I hate to see Fel Crush in the same row as Felblade. I'll definetly go for Abyssal Strike and Rain of Chaos of sick mobility and this talent would be so fitting. But Felblade is just too good to pass.

Also finally a talent worth taking in the final row. This Barrier talent looks sick.

[Primalthirst]

Purely from just looking at the 100 tier it seems pretty clear that Razor Spikes is intended to be the superior Single Target for DPS and Agonizing Flames is for AoE. If the tuning doesn't end up that way it's a failure on Blizzard's part.

[Deliverer]

is razor spike buffing fel eruption?

[Akeldema]

is razor spike buffing fel eruption?

No, fel eruption does chaos damage

[Zabbs]

I know Fracture + Feed the Demon was really awesome because of it's ability to increase our mitigation, but I don't think it is the direction the class should have gone in. There are already a lot of very very good mitigation focused tank classes currently. Fracture always seemed to me to be a great single target dps dump rolled up with a healing control talent. Those talents were decent separately, but very powerful together. It would have changed the flavor of single target tanking vs multi target tanking to a significant degree. I could forsee having to use two sets of gear because of the scaling differences. It was a fun thing to figure out, but was needlessly complicated and just increased the requirements to min-max yourself vs other tanks.

Fracture + Soul Barrier is the superior alternative to Fracture + FTD. It accomplishes everything you wanted in terms of mitigating important damage and synergizes with out soul consuming major artifact traits. Damage smoothing is not nearly as much of an issue now that the level 108 talents gurantee you will choose a talent to increase your healing. Overall it is a push towards being a healing based tank, but with more options to shore up the deficiencies of that style.

Also, I think this thread may be a bit overly obssessed with Soul Control. With our 1 minute artifact cooldown offering 5 souls quickly, soul control only matters if a major event occurs more than every minute and other things in our toolkit are not enough to deal with it. I know this advocates not min-maxing the effect of some of our talents, but we may want to consider that our talents are not balanced around always getting their full effect at all times. The max range of these talents may exist to ensure we do not have to deal with a sort of soft cap that makes their use more complicated or has a subtle skill cap increase. An example of this is "Gluttony". It may be tuned around us usually getting a 20% increase to our Soul Cleave damage. If it was just a plain 20% increase that would be boring and if the increase capped at a reasonably expected number of souls that would be frustrating. With the current design we usually get a 10% to 30% increase in damage, but with judicious usage of our abilties we can save up souls for burst AoE on an expected add pack.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I think it is important to note that Fracture + Feed the Demon doesn't synergize with our Tier Bonus as well as we would like to think. Feed the Demon does pair well with our 4 piece because that is just additional time taken off of our Demon Spikes CD. Fracture + Feed the Demon just does the exact same thing as our tier bonus. Any pain you would spend on Fracture to lower your Demon Spikes CD could be spent on Soul Cleave to lower the Demon Spikes CD by a very close amount. It may have been superior to go with Blade Turning (in terms of lowering Demon Spikes CD) in the old talent set up because that is a pain increase (which means more Soul Cleaves) and Parry equating to Pain syncs very well with the Parry gained from Demon Spikes.

[Deliverer]

No, fel eruption does chaos damage

isn't chaos damage like a mix of all type of damage?

- - - Updated - - -

I know Fracture + Feed the Demon was really awesome because of it's ability to increase our mitigation, but I don't think it is the direction the class should have gone in. There are already a lot of very very good mitigation focused tank classes currently. Fracture always seemed to me to be a great single target dps dump rolled up with a healing control talent. Those talents were decent separately, but very powerful together. It would have changed the flavor of single target tanking vs multi target tanking to a significant degree. I could forsee having to use two sets of gear because of the scaling differences. It was a fun thing to figure out, but was needlessly complicated and just increased the requirements to min-max yourself vs other tanks.

Fracture + Soul Barrier is the superior alternative to Fracture + FTD. It accomplishes everything you wanted in terms of mitigating important damage and synergizes with out soul consuming major artifact traits. Damage smoothing is not nearly as much of an issue now that the level 108 talents gurantee you will choose a talent to increase your healing. Overall it is a push towards being a healing based tank, but with more options to shore up the deficiencies of that style.

Also, I think this thread may be a bit overly obssessed with Soul Control. With our 1 minute artifact cooldown offering 5 souls quickly, soul control only matters if a major event occurs more than every minute and other things in our toolkit are not enough to deal with it. I know this advocates not min-maxing the effect of some of our talents, but we may want to consider that our talents are not balanced around always getting their full effect at all times. The max range of these talents may exist to ensure we do not have to deal with a sort of soft cap that makes their use more complicated or has a subtle skill cap increase. An example of this is "Gluttony". It may be tuned around us usually getting a 20% increase to our Soul Cleave damage. If it was just a plain 20% increase that would be boring and if the increase capped at a reasonably expected number of souls that would be frustrating. With the current design we usually get a 10% to 30% increase in damage, but with judicious usage of our abilties we can save up souls for burst AoE on an expected add pack.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I think it is important to note that Fracture + Feed the Demon doesn't synergize with our Tier Bonus as well as we would like to think. Feed the Demon does pair well with our 4 piece because that is just additional time taken off of our Demon Spikes CD. Fracture + Feed the Demon just does the exact same thing as our tier bonus. Any pain you would spend on Fracture to lower your Demon Spikes CD could be spent on Soul Cleave to lower the Demon Spikes CD by a very close amount. It may have been superior to go with Blade Turning (in terms of lowering Demon Spikes CD) in the old talent set up because that is a pain increase (which means more Soul Cleaves) and Parry equating to Pain syncs very well with the Parry gained from Demon Spikes.

With fracture + feed the demon and maybe 4 set on top it's too easy to achieve 100% uptime on demon spikes and they don't want that so I rather take this than seeing demon spikes CD increased or mastery scaling being nerfed tbh.
Also I could see FTD usefull in raid but in dungeons fel devastation was superior in my opinion.

[Promdates]

isn't chaos damage like a mix of all type of damage?

School Damage (Physical, Holy, Fire, Nature, Frost, Shadow, Arcane)

[Munkky]

The thing with Chaos damage is that it chooses whatever the enemy is weakest too. So theirs 1 of 2 things that explain why Razor Spikes doesn't buff it anymore.
1. Because Razor Spikes buffs you it doesn't reduce their resistance it just increases the damage you would deal with physical. This would explain why Fiery Demise buffs it but Charred Warblades doesn't proc. Since Fiery Demise technically lowers their fire resistance.

2. Its Broke.

[Orloth]

If damage reduction due to armor is higher then ~20% (it usually is) than any other damage type would still be better then physical. It takes the good and the bad of the damage type it selects.

[Deliverer]

I have to agree that meta is a bit underwhelming without soul rending.

I'm currently using agonizing flames, fallout, felblade, fracture, fel eruption, fel devastation and soul barrier.