[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Fenrkyr]

that's assuming they don't make breath a viable alternative.

BoS will absolutely be the best talent in that tier. I would be my house on it. Blizzard LOVES that ability, and there is a 0.001% chance that they let a PVP talent and a fire and forget talent exceed a talent that requires planning and an understanding of fight mechanics to manage.

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That's been the pattern with lots of classes though... the trick is to have a lot of synergistic nuance to when you use the abilities and why to squeeze the best performance from the spec.

Agreed, but that is something they have never done with frost before. They typically don't give the third tier specs that much attention.

[Bisque]

BoS will absolutely be the best talent in that tier. I would be my house on it. Blizzard LOVES that ability, and there is a 0.001% chance that they let a PVP talent and a fire and forget talent exceed a talent that requires planning and an understanding of fight mechanics to manage.

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Agreed, but that is something they have never done with frost before. They typically don't give the third tier specs that much attention.

I would take that bet, pm your address please.

In all seriousness though at least as of now, BoS does not seem like the automatic go to for best dps.

[nathrizarri]

Someone asked me if 2xRazorice was good, tested it with the best possible talent: Icy Talons and it still loses Typical Razor/U.strength on single target. Things get much worse for 2xRazorice on AoE.

[Wrien]

BoS will absolutely be the best talent in that tier. I would be my house on it. Blizzard LOVES that ability, and there is a 0.001% chance that they let a PVP talent and a fire and forget talent exceed a talent that requires planning and an understanding of fight mechanics to manage.

BoS is aweul on beta. It does really low damage. It seems hard to balance. If it is too strong, then you don't want any other talents, if it is just decent, Frost Strike will likely be stronger anyway.

Right now Frost Strike is a lot stronger. Having no lvl 100 talent is better than BoS right now.

[Baddok21]

BoS is aweul on beta. It does really low damage. It seems hard to balance. If it is too strong, then you don't want any other talents, if it is just decent, Frost Strike will likely be stronger anyway.

Right now Frost Strike is a lot stronger. Having no lvl 100 talent is better than BoS right now.

With Murderous effeciency, Runic Attenuation, 3 min ERW (baseline), Over-powered Trait, Frost Fever RP gains

they have taken all the "skill" out of using BoS to begin with its far to easy to keep up for 25+ second spurts so they should honestly just make it deal dmg with a fixed duration (or revert the rediculous resource generation frost is capable of).

[Clash the DK]

Someone asked me if 2xRazorice was good, tested it with the best possible talent: Icy Talons and it still loses Typical Razor/U.strength on single target. Things get much worse for 2xRazorice on AoE.

The only talent that might make 2xRazorice viable would be Shattering Strikes. I would love to see someone in the Beta do some testing.

[Deleted]

The only talent that might make 2xRazorice viable would be Shattering Strikes. I would love to see someone in the Beta do some testing.

Currently not viable, because of losing Fallen Crusader buff is big impact for Frost DK:s damage.
Tested with single, and 3 target cleave with pvp gear and wasnt able to get good result compaired to other choises.

Also in PVP because of Runeforges doesn't "yet" work in PVP, Fallen Crusader doesn't able to proc and Razorice does nothing, which makes Shattering Strikes unfunctional talent (which is quite bummer, because of stacking with "Tundra Stalker" pvp-talent would got some funny results).

[nathrizarri]

The only talent that might make 2xRazorice viable would be Shattering Strikes. I would love to see someone in the Beta do some testing.

You are wrong, sorry. Done the test, posted in frost feedback. Relying auto attacks for the application of razorice is not viable. Obliterate and Frost strike applies 2 stacks. After consuming stacks with Frost strike, you automatically get 2. 1 Obliterate and you have 4. An AA+Rime and you reach 5.

In Live multistrike AAs and specials apply a normal razorice, which many do not know, but with MS gone its no longer

[Clash the DK]

You are wrong, sorry. Done the test, posted in frost feedback. Relying auto attacks for the application of razorice is not viable. Obliterate and Frost strike applies 2 stacks. After consuming stacks with Frost strike, you automatically get 2. 1 Obliterate and you have 4. An AA+Rime and you reach 5.

In Live multistrike AAs and specials apply a normal razorice, which many do not know, but with MS gone its no longer

What exactly am I wrong about? Sorry, but your English is hard to follow.

Did you test with a Crit/Haste build? Or did you use a Crit/Mastery build? Which Artifact talents were used for testing? Which regular talents besides Shattering Strikes were used? What level was your character? What about your weapon? Did you stagger your rotation in any way?

These are all questions that can change the outcome of your "testing".



I think that the multiplier to Frost Strike should probably be raised to 100% in order to better accentuate the concept of Shattering Strikes. The base idea is to trade a little AoE damage for the opportunity of single target burst. As things stand, I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it just yet. Granted, it may very well be that they see this talent as more of a PvP option than anything.

[Deleted]

Is that a recent change with Runeforges not working? Last build I had both razorice and FC procs...

[Sharkcrap]

Would it be better if BoS used a set amount of runic power over time?

[Icedcoffeee]

Would it be better if BoS used a set amount of runic power over time?

BoS right now is just a tuning issue. They can ramp up damage and RP cost as needed until it works appropriately.

[Nayami]

Would it be better if BoS used a set amount of runic power over time?

Yeah let's take the only challenging (not really but its something..) component in the Frost spec and make the spec even more retard-friendly. Haven't played beta but as others have stated, BoS might be too easy to keep up with all the resource generating talents. Although, that may be their intention where the more gear we have, the less resource generation talents we need where we would then swap those talent with damage ones, Eg: Taking Freezing Fog instead of Horn of Winter, or Frost Scythe instead of RA.

[nathrizarri]

What exactly am I wrong about? Sorry, but your English is hard to follow.

Did you test with a Crit/Haste build? Or did you use a Crit/Mastery build? Which Artifact talents were used for testing? Which regular talents besides Shattering Strikes were used? What level was your character? What about your weapon? Did you stagger your rotation in any way?

These are all questions that can change the outcome of your "testing".



I think that the multiplier to Frost Strike should probably be raised to 100% in order to better accentuate the concept of Shattering Strikes. The base idea is to trade a little AoE damage for the opportunity of single target burst. As things stand, I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it just yet. Granted, it may very well be that they see this talent as more of a PvP option than anything.

Re-read my post and I haven't seen any statement where it is too hard for an average english speaker to follow. But hey, that is average.

You mentioned only viable build for 2x razorice is shattering strikes meanwhile talent itself functions perfectly fine without issues with single razorice. So there is literally no benefit of having 2x razorice for a shattering strikes build to work, if you know what you are doing, but then again, If. The fact that you skipped Icy Talons AA speed relation with Razorice speaks as if you do not have an idea about how

Shattering Strikes micromechanics
Unholy Strength uptime
Razorice's damage contribution

works.

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As for the questions you asked, they are all answered in the long post that I have dropped on Frost DK thread in here. Test itself was not a number test, it was to find out how certain talent combos work with each other and what those talents are built into them that players cannot access from basic tooldips such as;

Shattering Strikes talent: Frost Strike consumes Razorice stacks and applies 2 stacks right after, basically making you dance between 5-2 stacks meanwhile main hand hit benefiting the 5 stacks of razorice and offhand 2. Obliterate also applies 2 stacks by itself so your real life concern will be wheter you have landed an auto attack with razorice runeforged weapon during that Frost Strike+Obliterate period, and a Rime along the way. 2.45 GCD. That is if you want to keep a GCD locked rotation where you want to land your Frost Strike right after your OB+Rime.

[Clash the DK]

Re-read my post and I haven't seen any statement where it is too hard for an average english speaker to follow. But hey, that is average

Perfect example right here. That last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not hating on you. I'm just pointing out that it can be hard to communicate with you properly.

You mentioned only viable build for 2x razorice is shattering strikes meanwhile talent itself functions perfectly fine without issues with single razorice. So there is literally no benefit of having 2x razorice for a shattering strikes build to work, if you know what you are doing, but then again, If. The fact that you skipped Icy Talons AA speed relation with Razorice speaks as if you do not have an idea about how

Shattering Strikes micromechanics
Unholy Strength uptime
Razorice's damage contribution

works.

We have had Icy Talons for a very long time. In the past, the mechanic has been tuned all the way up to 70% attack speed. Also back then we stacked quite a bit of Haste. With that in mind, we have never used 2x Razorice. It has never been viable from just attack speed. So...the 30% attack speed from the new Icy Talons talent doesn't warrant conversation.

[Wootmonkey]

Perfect example right here. That last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not hating on you. I'm just pointing out that it can be hard to communicate with you properly.

I'm understanding his posts just fine.

[nathrizarri]

Perfect example right here. That last sentence makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not hating on you. I'm just pointing out that it can be hard to communicate with you properly.



We have had Icy Talons for a very long time. In the past, the mechanic has been tuned all the way up to 70% attack speed. Also back then we stacked quite a bit of Haste. With that in mind, we have never used 2x Razorice. It has never been viable from just attack speed. So...the 30% attack speed from the new Icy Talons talent doesn't warrant conversation.

This sums up that you do not get what I am saying,

I haven't said IT+2xRazorice is epic

I am saying IT+2xRazorice is the "best" combo for

2xRazorice build.

Whether we had IT at the past or not does not reflect today. It is a matter of Razorice being much stronger than the past, not having IT.

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For the record, Icy Talons rewards weapon damage really well, It is the only talent that inreases the damage contribution from Obliterate and Weapon attacks. Has Scaling component of all stats, also works well with our Artifact Trait=Crystalline Swords.

Runic Attenuation+Icy Talons with Unholy Strength has highest single target damage with 110lvl PvP realm testing where we have %4 haste and 750ilvl artifact weapons.

[Clash the DK]

This sums up that you do not get what I am saying,

I haven't said IT+2xRazorice is epic

I am saying IT+2xRazorice is the "best" combo for

2xRazorice build.

Whether we had IT at the past or not does not reflect today. It is a matter of Razorice being much stronger than the past, not having IT.

Why do you keep bring up IT+2xRazorice? You said yourself that it wasn't as good as Razorice/FC.

BTW, are you "testing" these things with the Bad to the Bone artifact trait?

[nathrizarri]

Why do you keep bring up IT+2xRazorice? You said yourself that it wasn't as good as Razorice/FC.

BTW, are you "testing" these things with the Bad to the Bone artifact trait?

My initial point was to answer a previously asked question whether 2xRazorice is viable or not.

Full artifact traits, no relics.

[Ivanesz]

I've got a question for ye testers: Does the frost artifact clip through the ground on a dwarf DK?

Thanks