[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Deleted]

Nah, Arms Warrior I'm afraid. Rerolled DK & Alting DH cos love aesthetics..and everything about it!'
Funny you mention it though, my Elemental Shaman friend says the same thing... and he was properly annoyed about the Ulduar "Can't do that while stunned" achievement, he said Blizz making dem funz of ele shammies hardcore. I did laugh then, I am not now when its happening to my dear Arms

[Forde]

Since EB mega nerf, if it isn't buffed, would it be worth cancelling when using demonic to get a few extra seconds of meta out? Currently w/ Blind Fury, the Meta buff starts when EB goes off, so its 7 seconds total, so would squeezing a couple more Annihilations out of meta overtake the Eye Beam damage for single target stuff?

[Deleted]

That's a bug, but yea I would imagine so. I more often than not cancel EB for Demonic anyway.

[Forde]

That's a bug, but yea I would imagine so. I more often than not cancel EB for Demonic anyway.

Figured it was, I doubted it was intended. I hope it gets fixed, and EB brought back up in damage. A shame that such a cool spell would be ignored in its current state.

[BiggestNoob]

What do you guys think about the Eye Beam nerf?

I think it's mostly the result of people complaining about some classes having burst AoE. The only time Eye Beam looked really powerful was on a 10 second trash pack. Being completely frank, anyone complaining about not being able to "contribute" on a 20 mob trash pull of mobs with 3-4 million HP that will die instantly if a few people pop a strong AoE CD are just complaining to complain.

On most bosses EB did under 10% of our DPS, even if you have a great opportunity to cleave you often only get 1-2 additional targets, but you also cleave those with Annihilation/CC, so it remains a tiny percent of our DPS.

There's a top meme running around on beta that Demon Hunters are literally just Eye Beam. After a trash pack dies (you know the every-other-trash-pack unless you have souls reducing your CD) someone sees a DH up at 800k with the warrior + DK and says "I should make a DH, just press Eye Beam and do top DPS." Then you'd pull the boss, the DH would have pooled max fury going into it, jump into meta and correctly spend the entire meta getting fat Annihilation crits, maybe using EB once in the fight to proc meta or to cleave down a ranged add after meta is over, and the boss is dead in like 40 seconds. Then they check the meter and see the DH at 350k and the mage at like 260 and some crappy 3rd DPS at like 150 and say "DH OP."

It's just exacerbated by the dungeons that have demons in them. There's a boss in AoVH that is a demon that just drops adds on the ground. Your tank, if smart, walks him over the adds and he's a demon, so if you've got a single soul during meta you've got 20 seconds of 20% more damage. If you run the right spec for that boss (CB, Nemesis/Momentum, but mostly Nemesis, DR, Appetite) and have a lot of crit/mastery, the boss dies before your meta is over after two CBs and the entire fight you've had +15%, +15%, +20%, +25% multiplicative inside meta, and with lots of nice fat Annihilation crits so you don't have downtime, you're sitting at like 600-700k DPS because you're 2-shotting the adds he lays down as soon as they enter range for Annihilation to split on them. There's a demon boss in Court of Stars I did the same thing to last night and had 500k DPS on it, pure ST (had nothing pooled on the pull), and this was without the +15% damage from the queue (because the instance broke and we had to reform and run in manually).

People see that and don't actually look at the breakdown, but just assume it's EB, but it's not. I did 600k without using EB once. Honestly I don't really care. I like EB being a ST increase because it makes the spec slightly less simple to play (ideally it's not such a massive ST increase that you want to use it on CD, favoring saving it for add cleave), but the QQ about burst AoE is just nonsensical. We're talking about heroic dungeons (810 req) being nuked down by people in 840+ gear, and mythic+0 dungeons with bosses that die in 50-60 seconds already. When we're in 900 gear, a 50% EB + BD will likely kill a trash pack in a heroic dungeon even so, and the real test will be high mythic+ dungeons where packs won't last for 10 seconds, so sustained AoE (like getting off several BD/SS's) will end up being far more important than having a fat eye beam or two melt a pack of irrelevant trash mobs.

[Phunkle]

Why does anything about the DH has something to do with canceling either an animation or a whole attack? This should not be the way this specc works and I dearly hope Blizz will fix this asap.

[Phunkle]

Because I am very certain that the choice to add demon hunters was only made shortly before presenting them. Even if it's been many months now. It's still not enough time for Blizzard to come out with a polished class / spec.

I know DK's were OP when they first came out but they at least had all of their talents created at start. For DH it's like we caught Blizzard with their pants down and they are fumbling to get them back up.

..What. The spec is fine and fun to play. I never said anything else and can't really agree with your statment.

Point of my post was that I don't like the current situation where you have to pull the "clever use of game mechanics" to get the most of it. That is not a design but an engine problem.

[Forde]

Because I am very certain that the choice to add demon hunters was only made shortly before presenting them. Even if it's been many months now. It's still not enough time for Blizzard to come out with a polished class / spec.

I know DK's were OP when they first came out but they at least had all of their talents created at start. For DH it's like we caught Blizzard with their pants down and they are fumbling to get them back up.

I'll respectfully disagree. I feel Havoc is relatively well thought out, its just issues with the way the spells interact with the engine that cause glitches like animation cancelling to be possible.

Personally, I would love if Momentum reduced the range of FR by 50%, just so that you could effectively rush and not overshoot your target or have to animation cancel. Also, another option is similar to Death from Above for rogues, where it locked you in the animation, and couldn't do anything else but that is not the case.

[Vanyali]

You really don't have to animation cancel fel rush for momentum. Never have, never will (I'd rather not get banned for a mouse macro that's deemed against ToS one day). It just requires you to use the environment / felblade to your advantage.

[Forde]

You really don't have to animation cancel fel rush for momentum. Never have, never will (I'd rather not get banned for a mouse macro that's deemed against ToS one day). It just requires you to use the environment / felblade to your advantage.

I get what you're saying. I don't use any macros for it, just hold S, Fel Rush, spacebar. I personally hate that its in the game, and I love the concept of momentum, its just the issues with balancing that are causing it to be so dominant. I would love if Fel Eruption was balanced with it, but it seems to not do the damage that it should against bosses.

[Deleted]

Alright time for general feedback to take a break from all that weary animation cancel theory-crafting.

Leveling: Will agree with sentiment that they seem rather flaky during leveling. Reminds me old vanilla-style leveling where I ate (and drank) after each pull (not that bad though). Since I only need to level once this should be bearable. (won't level to 110 on beta to keep some stuff fresh) Must admit I really wish some of our damage was spread around from Chaos Strike. If Felblade wouldn't have descended to save me, I would have deemed spec "quite stale". Make that baseline already dangit.

Max level PvE: No idea since on PvP-Realm Khadgar keeps cockblocking your geronimo-to-the-broken-shore-leaps and dungeons are disabled.

Max level PvP: Class feels like a battleground hero, does very well there and you can usually flee when it gets hectic. Having no coordinated CC used against you during meta makes class feel very powerful. On arenas... coordinated CC or being without a healer for a second is your bane. It's painful how useless you feel in roots, kinda similar vanilla/tbc warriors. Term "mobile" mostly refers to offensive mobility, defensively you're not that mobile. Class is fun to play and has some interesting quirks. Overall seems promising.

Suggestions (late for this, yet I dare!):
(1) Since havoc already has clearly defined weaknesses against slows and roots it might be possible to give them a small self-heal? A simple one, that would not be a leech mechanic or anything quirky like that. Just something in vein of [Small-Fel-Themed-Heal-Cause-they-Whined-About-It-So-Long: You heal for X% amount, consumes all fury, 30 sec CD] it's not free healing since you would be trading in main resource to keep yourself up + it would be limited by cooldown. Give it cast time if you want. I might have suggested this as PvP talent but to be honest it felt like they might have use for it in PvE too.

(2) Considering the chosen one talent Felblade and animation-cancel shenigans... Make Felblade baseline for havoc and have it proc Momentum which can then be removed from Fel Rush to reduce animation cancel shenigans.

[Schlosh]

Because I am very certain that the choice to add demon hunters was only made shortly before presenting them. Even if it's been many months now. It's still not enough time for Blizzard to come out with a polished class / spec.

I know DK's were OP when they first came out but they at least had all of their talents created at start. For DH it's like we caught Blizzard with their pants down and they are fumbling to get them back up.

I highly doubt this since a lot of the storyline centers around having demon hunters...

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Alright time for general feedback to take a break from all that weary animation cancel theory-crafting.

Leveling: Will agree with sentiment that they seem rather flaky during leveling. Reminds me old vanilla-style leveling where I ate (and drank) after each pull (not that bad though). Since I only need to level once this should be bearable. (won't level to 110 on beta to keep some stuff fresh) Must admit I really wish some of our damage was spread around from Chaos Strike. If Felblade wouldn't have descended to save me, I would have deemed spec "quite stale". Make that baseline already dangit.

Max level PvE: No idea since on PvP-Realm Khadgar keeps cockblocking your geronimo-to-the-broken-shore-leaps and dungeons are disabled.

Max level PvP: Class feels like a battleground hero, does very well there and you can usually flee when it gets hectic. Having no coordinated CC used against you during meta makes class feel very powerful. On arenas... coordinated CC or being without a healer for a second is your bane. It's painful how useless you feel in roots, kinda similar vanilla/tbc warriors. Term "mobile" mostly refers to offensive mobility, defensively you're not that mobile. Class is fun to play and has some interesting quirks. Overall seems promising.

Suggestions (late for this, yet I dare!):
(1) Since havoc already has clearly defined weaknesses against slows and roots it might be possible to give them a small self-heal? A simple one, that would not be a leech mechanic or anything quirky like that. Just something in vein of [Small-Fel-Themed-Heal-Cause-they-Whined-About-It-So-Long: You heal for X% amount, consumes all fury, 30 sec CD] it's not free healing since you would be trading in main resource to keep yourself up + it would be limited by cooldown. Give it cast time if you want. I might have suggested this as PvP talent but to be honest it felt like they might have use for it in PvE too.

(2) Considering the chosen one talent Felblade and animation-cancel shenigans... Make Felblade baseline for havoc and have it proc Momentum which can then be removed from Fel Rush to reduce animation cancel shenigans.

I've seen this suggestion with Felblade proc'ing momentum and while I would absolutely LOVE this, it would become much too OP. Momentum is already best talent in the row and this would make it even better. A lesser % of Momentum would have to come with this combination. Don't get me wrong, I love playing OP shit.

[Surtruk]

Maybe its just me being a scrub, but I love the way the momentum playstyle feels. I can sit there and do the basic Demon's Bite->Chaos Strike combo, or I can zip all over the place with VR, FR, FB shenanigans and be rewarded for it. It reminds me of Illidan in HotS, and its a huge relief coming from Live(and even beta) warriors.

I disagree with adding momentum to FB for that reason. It serves its purpose with decent damage+Gap closer, and I'd rather they focus any attention on that ability to fixing its pathing issues. I think a better fix to momentum would be to lower it to 10% damage but a 5s duration, rather than adding another source for the buff.

[Deleted]

I've seen this suggestion with Felblade proc'ing momentum and while I would absolutely LOVE this, it would become much too OP. Momentum is already best talent in the row and this would make it even better. A lesser % of Momentum would have to come with this combination. Don't get me wrong, I love playing OP shit.

I believe they could tweak Felblade CD reset proc% or remove reset entirely.

Tbh Demon's Bite has really high chance to reset it right now.

[Racthoh]

You really don't have to animation cancel fel rush for momentum. Never have, never will (I'd rather not get banned for a mouse macro that's deemed against ToS one day). It just requires you to use the environment / felblade to your advantage.

seems like a fun time when your greatest dps increase is a wall/staircase.

[Deleted]

seems like a fun time when your greatest dps increase is a wall/staircase.

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btw PvE testers.
How useful is Darkness in practice in Raids/Mythic dungeons? It sounds useful on paper but aren't most of mechanics you would want to avoid AoE? you can't dodge AoEs?

edit. or wait, is it just 20% chance to immune damage no matter the source?

[Vanyali]

seems like a fun time when your greatest dps increase is a wall/staircase.

Yeah, I hate it when I can't just tunnel a boss and have to think about what I'm doing.

[BiggestNoob]

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btw PvE testers.
How useful is Darkness in practice in Raids/Mythic dungeons? It sounds useful on paper but aren't most of mechanics you would want to avoid AoE? you can't dodge AoEs?

edit. or wait, is it just 20% chance to immune damage no matter the source?

It seems to work on most things, but I will most generally drop it on the tank when they're making a huge pull.

[Deleted]

As an aspiring DH main this thread has been super informative and much better than the beta forums threads with that Mage going on a crusade for OP solutions to problems the class/spec has, and insulting everyone who didn't agree with him.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

As an aspiring DH main this thread has been super informative and much better than the beta forums threads with that Mage going on a crusade for OP solutions to problems the class/spec has, and insulting everyone who didn't agree with him.

I carry a similar sentiment. For the most part this thread has been able to remain rather civil, minus the time where there was a really ugly spat between a few dudes in regards to animation cancelling and Momentum. Fortunately that was brief, and we were able to get back on topic rather quickly.

We've also been pretty open to different folks' playstyles; whether they be casual folks who don't raid, folks who raid, folks who PvP, etc. No question too stupid for folks who could for all intents and purpose be condescending. Not to mention that throughout the testing process if you're ever curious about something and ask someone to test it, someone usually does (looking at you @Vanyali , for testing First Blood when BD still cost 50 Fury and felt awful to take in your opinion).

The folks who've been in Alpha and posting here since Alpha deserve all kinds of love.