[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Elamahpla]

ive been doing some stuff today, i still think felblade and fracture together is too good not to have and use. youre swimming in pain and it just meshes so well together, but ftd is just too strong.

[Deliverer]

FTD is good on aoe with fallout for ST you won't use it most likely

[Munkky]

FTD is good on aoe with fallout for ST you won't use it most likely

This, pretty much. FTD is now the AoE/Dungeon talent and Fracture is the ST/Raid talent.

[Zabbs]

I don't think there is a talent row I don't dislike now. I've played with all of the new ones and they are very useful. Spirit Bomb is such a great improvement. Soul Barrier is quite fun. I really like this direction.

[Milocow]

Can soul barrier shielding effect crit? Both the initial cast and following Shields provided by the souls' consumption

Also fel devastation says it heals you up to (420% AP X 10) based on damage done. How does that work? You channel the full duration and get 4200% AP worth of healing or do you have to hit multiple targets to get the maximum heal amount?

[Akeldema]

Can soul barrier shielding effect crit? Both the initial cast and following Shields provided by the souls' consumption

Also fel devastation says it heals you up to (420% AP X 10) based on damage done. How does that work? You channel the full duration and get 4200% AP worth of healing or do you have to hit multiple targets to get the maximum heal amount?

every tick of damage will give you a tick of healing, hitting multiple mobs will not give you multiple ticks of healing.

[Zabbs]

How they made 104 row so incredibly difficult to choose from in PvP (everything is awesome), while 106 row has no choice at all (Fel Eruption is vastly superior to other talents)?

I wouldn't say Fel Eruption is the vastly superior talent. It's stun duration is small at 2s and it's damage is comparable to Fracture without the multiplier. It's a question of whether you want a single target damage increase/stun vs better use of existing abilities. Concentrated Sigils is a bit "dumbing down" of sigils, but offers a 20% damage increase to Sigil of Flame through it's dot (in current tuning) and 2s of extra slow or silence. Quickened Sigils makes the "skill shot" aspect of the Sigil 2s delay easier. I can see superior players in PvP getting out of Sigil Range upon recognizing them. It's not a life changing tier, but the devs said that shouldn't be an expectation for all tiers anyway. It seems to be a good trade off.

Also finally a talent worth taking in the final row. This Barrier talent looks sick.

Soul Barrier is great. If you feel confident, it is easy to leave Last Resort in the ditch. Soul Barrier solves a lot of the same problems as Last Resort, but in a vastly different way. Nether Bond is a good pairing imo. It is the sort of thing you pick up when you have no survivability issues, but other people in your group do. As long as we keep Darkness, I feel we don't lack an external CD compared to other Tank classes.

[Fragarach]

How they made 104 row so incredibly difficult to choose from in PvP (everything is awesome), while 106 row has no choice at all (Fel Eruption is vastly superior to other talents)?

Depends what kind of PvP, the 106 tier has some good options for arena (baiting charges etc with sigils at your location and having ranged sigils activate faster and have more range will come in handy) especially since you'll not get the 100% extra dmg even if stun dr is up, due to it reading 'permanently immune to stuns'. I'd prefer quickened sigils personally, as the ability to stun someone whilst also throwing a sigil to silence their heals in a 2s team would outweigh the 2sec stun from Eruption (For me).

Also finally a talent worth taking in the final row. This Barrier talent looks sick.

Idk, if you considered taking Soul Rending in 104, Last Resort in the final row is pretty tasty looking, being bumped back to 30% hp as well as getting Meta/50% leech could be damn handy. Again thinking more from an arena standpoint than BGs though.

[FenixAU]

Feeling quite squishy in mythic dungeons. Feels.. okay once I get a rhythm going, but until I can get some souls generated, it feels quite dicey. I've died several times on the pull, from taking a bunch of hits in the first couple of seconds and neither I nor my healer being able to catch up.

Definitely feeling the armor and passive avoidance nerf.

[Deleted]

How is your gear and what level mythic are you doing?

[Cooper]

Feeling quite squishy in mythic dungeons. Feels.. okay once I get a rhythm going, but until I can get some souls generated, it feels quite dicey. I've died several times on the pull, from taking a bunch of hits in the first couple of seconds and neither I nor my healer being able to catch up.

Definitely feeling the armor and passive avoidance nerf.

I've wondered for a while now why Infernal Strike doesn't give a bit of pain to start one off.

[FenixAU]

How is your gear and what level mythic are you doing?

833, a little crit-heavy (not my preference, but using what I'm getting), base and +2 mythic. It's mostly trash causing problems, although some bosses here and there absolutely truck me (Cordana, for example).

I've wondered for a while now why Infernal Strike doesn't give a bit of pain to start one off.

That'd help.

In comparison, I've done all the mythics up to +3 on my Warrior with very few issues - and I think part of the reason why is what Cooper just alluded to. Being able to shield block straight off a charge makes a hell of a difference.


Ultimately though, I feel like having paper armor and bugger all avoidance makes for too much insta-gib potential. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best at the spec yet, and do make some silly mistakes (I'm sure anyone that's watched my videos (I've started uploading mythic videos) can attest), but I just feel that we're a little too squishy, at least outside of demon spikes.

[Deleted]

DH is very squishy on pull, that's just life of it. I went DK after trying some DH and its a lot more fluid, self sustainable and flat out better at tanking really. Especially since they "buffed" DS, they made Bone Shield an absorb instead of a mitigation (Works the same, just lets you DS off the BS "blocked damage"). I personally find DK a better tank, but less fun to play because of ability interaction. I do enjoy DH a lot more, haven't tanked much lately as one though, so I can't comment much.

The feeling like paper thing remains a constant, however - what I've learned to do is bigger pulls (e.g. 2nd pull in Halls of Valor, the one with the drake and 4? or 6 adds not sure) The first huge pull, I just meta it, and trolol no problemos. I'm not sure that is ideal, but honestly there are pulls few and far between that are really that hard where you flat out have to burn a big hit.

Use Immolation smart, dont "pull" with it, think of it as a pseudo heal (Needs charred Warblades) and it alleviates some pressure, I personally used the jumping fire brand for mitigation too... All these small tools and things you've got are nice, and final note is don't be afraid to leap away for survival... There is no "fault" in doing so, give the healer catchup time, cos we really are squishy on pulls.

I remember early alphas, you needed huge healer CDs on pull else you would die, before stuff gets rolling.

[Munkky]

When engaging a pack of trash, you could start it off like,
SoF > IS to the pack > Immo as soon as you land/get in middle of enemies, into a DS.

This guarantees aggro on most packs, gets your DS up by the time most of the mobs come to hit you, and allows you breathing room to start building up souls. With Fallout you could potentially start the pack with 5 souls, to help you out while the healer plays catch up.

Also keep in mind that IS (Infernal Strike) isn't on the GCD like Heroic Leap. So you can use it then go straight into Immolation Aura.

- - - Updated - - -

Also here is my Demon Hunter Theorycrafting Spreadsheet. I just started it like 2 days ago and I will be updating often from now on, after school is done later this week!
So Far I have:
Fiery Demise DPS Maximising
All Level 110 Dung/world boss/raid Relics listed, including where to find them and what they buff.
I have started a Pre Raid BiS list, though I am still working on it.

Eventually I will make a BiS list for both Surv and DPS for the raids. The pre raid will be based around survivability.

This will all be forwarded onto my new website whenever I get that done. So it will be much easier to read and understand.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Deleted]

When engaging a pack of trash, you could start it off like,
SoF > IS to the pack > Immo as soon as you land/get in middle of enemies, into a DS.

This guarantees aggro on most packs, gets your DS up by the time most of the mobs come to hit you, and allows you breathing room to start building up souls. With Fallout you could potentially start the pack with 5 souls, to help you out while the healer plays catch up.

Also keep in mind that IS (Infernal Strike) isn't on the GCD like Heroic Leap. So you can use it then go straight into Immolation Aura.

- - - Updated - - -

Also here is my Demon Hunter Theorycrafting Spreadsheet. I just started it like 2 days ago and I will be updating often from now on, after school is done later this week!
So Far I have:
Fiery Demise DPS Maximising
All Level 110 Dung/world boss/raid Relics listed, including where to find them and what they buff.
I have started a Pre Raid BiS list, though I am still working on it.

Eventually I will make a BiS list for both Surv and DPS for the raids. The pre raid will be based around survivability.

This will all be forwarded onto my new website whenever I get that done. So it will be much easier to read and understand.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Great idea! We need something like that for Vengeance! Hope i have more time next week to test the new build! I am quite happy that we got a bit more people in here! Keep it up guys!

Edit: Probably Add your Weakauras to the spreadsheet Munkky.

[Delimit]

When engaging a pack of trash, you could start it off like,
SoF > IS to the pack > Immo as soon as you land/get in middle of enemies, into a DS.

That's basically how I do it. Sometimes I'll layer a silence/grip, into flame right as I jump. SoF/IS/Immolation is huge burst. The only problem I usually have is when that Hunter wants to "help" by misdirecting before my sigil goes off and then he pulls them off of it.

Can soul barrier shielding effect crit? Both the initial cast and following Shields provided by the souls' consumption

No, the barrier can't crit.

[Zabbs]

Use Immolation smart, dont "pull" with it, think of it as a pseudo heal (Needs charred Warblades) and it alleviates some pressure, I personally used the jumping fire brand for mitigation too... All these small tools and things you've got are nice, and final note is don't be afraid to leap away for survival... There is no "fault" in doing so, give the healer catchup time, cos we really are squishy on pulls.

Yeah, I find myself using at least 1 or 2 of our 1 minute survival CDs during harder pulls. We are so dependent on active mitigation currently that a mistake is more costly in comparison to other tanks. Hopefully the talent shake up will lead to better tuning. Changing Immolation Aura to give 10 pain initially and 10 pain over time could help jump start our rotation too.

[Deliverer]

833, a little crit-heavy (not my preference, but using what I'm getting), base and +2 mythic. It's mostly trash causing problems, although some bosses here and there absolutely truck me (Cordana, for example).



That'd help.

In comparison, I've done all the mythics up to +3 on my Warrior with very few issues - and I think part of the reason why is what Cooper just alluded to. Being able to shield block straight off a charge makes a hell of a difference.


Ultimately though, I feel like having paper armor and bugger all avoidance makes for too much insta-gib potential. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best at the spec yet, and do make some silly mistakes (I'm sure anyone that's watched my videos (I've started uploading mythic videos) can attest), but I just feel that we're a little too squishy, at least outside of demon spikes.

felblade is the same as charge beside it keeps giving you pain if you are already in melee range and it is a rotational ability, I mean demon spikes cost 10 pain it takes literally 1 sec to have enough pain to use them

[FenixAU]

felblade is the same as charge beside it keeps giving you pain if you are already in melee range and it is a rotational ability, I mean demon spikes cost 10 pain it takes literally 1 sec to have enough pain to use them

I'm aware. I've also died from 4 mobs melee swinging simultaneously in literally that 1 second. Not regularly, but it does happen.

Seriously, I'm mostly a retard, not a complete retard.

Sigh.

[Elamahpla]

has anyone found what the 'hidden' artifact trait is?