Mark of the Legion WA vs DBM

[Deleted]

Does anyone have data (e.g. a video, or your memory, the logs don't record it) showing that 3 or 4 debuffs can land on the same raid frames group? If it's not happening I might be onto something here. If the game server does that, preassigned groups might be objectively the superior solution instead of the objectively worse solution.

[Amantino]

Does anyone have data (e.g. a video, or your memory, the logs don't record it) showing that 3 or 4 debuffs can land on the same raid frames group? If it's not happening I might be onto something here. If the game server does that, preassigned groups might be objectively the superior solution instead of the objectively worse solution.

For real progress this would mean the death of soakers.

[Djriff]

For real progress this would mean the death of soakers.

Unless they can solo it, yes.
@tobindax it's rare but I've seen it happen a handful of times in 400+ pulls.

[Deleted]

For real progress this would mean the death of soakers.

Yes it would. That's the point.

Unless they can solo it, yes.
@tobindax it's rare but I've seen it happen a handful of times in 400+ pulls.

Then nevermind (assuming others agree with you), it was worth a try though. On a similar (but not same) application of another debuf in manno (Wrath), I can confirm that at least 3 or at least 4 debuffs can land on the same raid frames group. The math is slightly different there of course because the encounter forces 2 debuffs to be ranged dps and 2 debuffs to be melee dps and 1 debuff to be healer (unless the raid runs out of players being alive) while on this one the application appears to be fully random or more or less random and only fully avoid the tanks unless all other are dead.

[Nitros14]

Does anyone have data (e.g. a video, or your memory, the logs don't record it) showing that 3 or 4 debuffs can land on the same raid frames group? If it's not happening I might be onto something here. If the game server does that, preassigned groups might be objectively the superior solution instead of the objectively worse solution.

Happened on our first kill with 4 on one group, still killed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pOTGezPLEE Second marks at 5:30

It's survivable if it's three on one group. Odds of four are

First 4/18 chance the first goes on that group. Then 3/17 the second, 2/16 the third, 1/15 the fourth. So about one in every 600 attempts will have it happen.

[Djriff]

Also logs does record it, just in the replay part. You can filter it out by mark of the legion and just hit next in the little slide show it makes.

[Relapses]

Happened on our first kill with 4 on one group, still killed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pOTGezPLEE Second marks at 5:30

It's survivable if it's three on one group. Odds of four are

First 4/18 chance the first goes on that group. Then 3/17 the second, 2/16 the third, 1/15 the fourth. So about one in every 600 attempts will have it happen.

It actually happened in our first kill. Poor Mage got knocked into oblivion while his blink was on CD. (He wasn't running AT.) Thankfully he landed on the platform.

[stevenho]

Ginvis > Blink
Evanese > Blink

Repeat

Mark only hits for like 1.2m or something anyone with enough DR can live it(long as they have a way to stay on platform)

Rows containing ginv and eva are identical for all mage specs.

[Dracodraco]

Happened on our first kill with 4 on one group, still killed it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pOTGezPLEE Second marks at 5:30

It's survivable if it's three on one group. Odds of four are

First 4/18 chance the first goes on that group. Then 3/17 the second, 2/16 the third, 1/15 the fourth. So about one in every 600 attempts will have it happen.

Multiplied by the amount of marks going out in a fight, so 4-5 in progression raids, making it more of a "every houndred" attempts kind of thing.

[Deleted]

Odds of four are

First 4/18 chance the first goes on that group. Then 3/17 the second, 2/16 the third, 1/15 the fourth. So about one in every 600 attempts will have it happen.

Yeah but add to it the more common case of 3 people getting it which can cause wipes in some guilds or the very common case of 2 people getting it in the same group which is a mild strain and it's not the optimal solution. Those things become very important on averagely skilled guilds because you add the dead that may be (unable to soak) and not very optimal in defenses use and not very smart in switching groups dynamically out of common sense.

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Also logs does record it, just in the replay part. You can filter it out by mark of the legion and just hit next in the little slide show it makes.

I asked the warcraft logs coder. He can not see in logs the groups of the raid frames (which is what I was referring to). He just lists players in some kind of order of his own.

[Deiae]

Considering that you only need three people nowadays to survive a mark hit as has been mentioned and so many classes can and do solo it in a raid I don't think a bad scenario will effectively occur often enough to adjust the strategy to account for it. A common bossmod and preassigned groups for the four gathering positions ensure everyone except maybe the mark afflicted people knows way ahead of time where they will need to be and thus reduces moving and gives peace of mind. Unnecessary movement and unnecessarily complex strategies in my experience do not help killing and rekilling a boss in a robust fashion.

[Deleted]

It actually happened in our first kill. Poor Mage got knocked into oblivion while his blink was on CD. (He wasn't running AT.) Thankfully he landed on the platform.

Mages often opt-out of solo soaking this. It's not laziness. It's just that getting other talents or using defenses elsewhere can be more often reliably and stably used than others compared to the rare chance of getting a mark that can't be soaked. e.g. Method's raid leader run Ice Barrier because it can be a moderate help to healers on multiple predictable and frequent occasions with low drawbacks.

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I don't think a bad scenario will effectively occur often enough to adjust the strategy to account for it.

If you're farming it reliably already, adjusting strategies isn't everyone's cake. I get that. Some guilds may adjust but it's a subjective matter in general. But:

unnecessarily complex strategies in my experience do not help

It's the easiest strategy in the world to be told where to go to. The main problem guilds have with this is that various members may not be on the same page in terms of UI code. That's why almost nobody wants to change their current solution whatever it is because they know it will create a mess on people's setups.

[stevenho]

Mages often opt-out of solo soaking this. It's not laziness. It's just that getting other talents or using defenses elsewhere can be more often reliably and stably used than others compared to the rare chance of getting a mark that can't be soaked. e.g. Method's raid leader run Ice Barrier because it can be a moderate help to healers on multiple predictable and frequent occasions with low drawbacks.

Not sure what ice barrier has to do with soloing marks as that requires Ginv.
There is absolutely no comparison between negating 1,2M damage to 4 people and popping a joke of a CD that is ice barrier from time to time.
Even if you are not soloing the mark, negating two or three 300K hits with ginv is huge. Rest is negated by alter time which is also huge on progress.

[Deleted]

Not sure what ice barrier has to do with soloing marks

Nothing. Who told you that it does? It was about a spell that is used elsewhere that doesn't allow soaking marks as easily it was the point.

[stevenho]

Nothing. Who told you that it does? It was about a spell that is used elsewhere that doesn't allow soaking marks as easily it was the point.

Your post said it does
Ice Barrier is not on the same row as the required talent to solo (Ginv) so you can have Ice Barrier and solo marks just fine.

[Dracodraco]

Nothing. Who told you that it does? It was about a spell that is used elsewhere that doesn't allow soaking marks as easily it was the point.

Head is hurting. You implied it, Tobin. You were discussing soloing marks which mages can do easily for every one of them, and then go on to talk about ice barrier, as if using ice barrier somehow hinders you from soloing the marks. Why not both? They're not going to be mutually exclusive, because the talents are on entirely different tiers.

Also

I asked the warcraft logs coder. He can not see in logs the groups of the raid frames (which is what I was referring to). He just lists players in some kind of order of his own.

It's not just "some order". It's quite fucking easy to see how he orders players - tanks first (in alphabetical order), dps second (in alphabetical order), healers third (in alphabetical order).
https://gyazo.com/fb64b9885e8303fd5705ef7caf577c6d here's a picture of our raid to demonstrate - quotey and noruego are tanks, fightmypala janggo and zartt are healers. Vâlgo comes before Valx (despite G being before X) because any accented letter (such as ó, â, ë etc) are considered to come after the normal alphabet. How exactly priority between ^, ¨, ´, ` etc works I haven't the slightest of clues, and I don't intend to figure it out.

So you *could* sort your groups according to how WCL sorts them if you want to control stuff like being able to see the marks etc - while he can't get group information, we can make our groups fit the pattern he's set if it's something we'd like to have available.

[Deleted]

Head is hurting. You implied it

Implied? I was explicit. "getting other talents or using defenses elsewhere".

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It's not just "some order".

That's off topic. The point was to see on any guild's log's replay if the debuffs avoid the same raid frames group. It doesn't matter how he sorts them.

He can not see the frames groups is all he's saying.

He could detect them of course indirectly.

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Ice Barrier is not on the same row as the required talent to solo (Ginv) so you can have Ice Barrier and solo marks just fine.

You missed episodes then. GI is not the only spell the can help to solo. Also AT can.

[Dracodraco]

You missed episodes then. GI is not the only spell the can help to solo. Also AT can.

I think the point here was that you can solo every single mark and still take ice barrier (evans+greater invis ensures you have a CD every time marks goes out, with some to spare on most waves as there's a minute between and evans immunes all the dmg) - thus ice barrier isn't relevant to the discussion at all (and thus, as you'd put it, "off topic").

[stevenho]

Yep, ice barrier is completely irrelevant to the discussion of soloing marks.
Also it is by far the inferior talent to AT for progressing on archi.

[Deleted]

evans+greater invis

It's subjective because evanesce can't have ice floes.