[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well minus the Mastery bonus CS got in WoD, it's the strongest it's ever been. It could be stronger IMO because they don't have to worry too much because of the mastery effect. I can KINDA see TV being nerfed since the Judgement Smash effect that is affected by Mastery. That said, I don't know exact numbers how strong TV is inside the damage window.

[Ashelorh]

After having played for a while, I gotta say, the class could be really fun with just a couple of minor tweaks, another mobility tool and shorter cooldowns would make the spec really fun I think.

[ruiizu]

Well minus the Mastery bonus CS got in WoD, it's the strongest it's ever been. It could be stronger IMO because they don't have to worry too much because of the mastery effect. I can KINDA see TV being nerfed since the Judgement Smash effect that is affected by Mastery. That said, I don't know exact numbers how strong TV is inside the damage window.

It's weak relative to its competition though. It competes with Blade of Justice, Templar's Verdict, Judgment, and Wake of Ashes by default, all of which are many, many times stronger. There's always going to be a trash tier ability relative to the other skills (the "filler" if you will), and I usually am of the opinion that the filler attack should have no CD. If you never want to press it except when you can't press the other skills, it's the filler by default. Now, you can make filler better by having it do things like Fires of Justice proc, but by default the damage of the filler skill is going to be low.

[Deleted]

Not sure if it's beefier than it was, but it was accounting for a good portion of my damage in a dungeon I ran today with some talents to test out single target boss mode:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ht=14&source=4

[Alindra]

I realize plotting rotations is a lot of work, but could you perhaps stipulate what the rotation would look like if Crusader Strike had no CD? It's one thing we've been talking about a lot: given that Crusader Strike damage is pretty awful and how we depend on our Judgment window heavily, it seems like it makes more sense to just have no CD at all (it's the last attack you want to use in every situation for the most part anyway; it's the new Exorcism).

Coming up with rotations is hard, the actual plotting is just tedious. (Again, Bryiah posted the rotation, I merely plotted it out to ensure it worked.) Removing the CD from CS actually wouldn't change the numerical strength of our rotation at all, it would just provide flexibility.

Instead of thinking in terms of seconds, think of our rotation in terms of GCDs. Our rotation's total timeframe is 8 GCDs (4 windup, 4 window). The goal of the first four GCDs is to pool as much HP as possible and the last four are to dump them. All four of the builder GCDs will be HP builders. Since we can only store 5 HP, one GCD during the window will be a builder as well, so 5 total. The first GCD of window will be Judgment, the second will a spender. That means window GCD 3 or 4 will be TV as well. So now we have:

5 GCDs for builders
1 GCD for Judgment
2 GCDs for TV
8 total

One of the builders will be BoJ, which leaves 4 GCDs to use CS. Guess how many CSes Bryiah's rotation had? Four. The only real difference between 3.0s 2x charge Fires of Justice ad a no CD CS is flexibility. Right now, if you move any GCD of Bryiah's rotation, the entire thing falls apart because CS doesn't recharge fast enough and/or will cap on charges causing problems later. Without a CD, you could do any of the following:

BoJ -> CS -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Repeat
CS -> BoJ -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Repeat (or BoJ in any other CS location)
BoJ -> CS -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> TV -> CS -> Repeat (it you get a Fires proc, since CS has no CD, we don't have to worry about it capping charges)
CS -> CS -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> BoJ -> TV -> Repeat (note that you'd only have 4 HP going into Judgement, but BoJ would bump you from 1 to 3, I wouldn't recommend this because you couldn't utilize the Fires proc without delaying BoJ, and then it would desync and get messy)

It also means that while holding Judgment (imminent add spawn, etc) you still had something to use. Additionally, transitioning between single target and AoE would be much smoother because you wouldn't have to worry about the CS charges. It still wouldn't be ideal, but it would be smoother.

By the way, even with super high haste values (say, 50%) we still wouldn't deviate from our rotation. Sure, we'd have a higher uptime (our entire cycle would still be 8 GCDs, but only take 8s, so Judgment would have an uptime of 75%, so we'd have a 2 GCD build period and 6 GCD window), but we don't build enough HP per GCD to squeeze more than 2 TVs into it. Think about it, if we Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV we still have 2 GCDs of window left, but 0 Holy Power. We can't build 3 HP and spend it in 2 GCDs (well, Wake aside). Additionally, even if we did, then we'd be short on HP for the next cycle (since we used 2 of the GCDs we'd normally be spend building HP to spend them).

Speaking of Wake - it goes to show that with Fires, HP building Wake really doesn't accomplish too much - we don't have the GCDs to spare or the resource pool to store it. It's essentially just a damage ability.

Also, this means Execution Sentence must be really awkward since neither its CD (20s) nor duration (8s) line up with our 12s window. The plus side is that it means you could make use of Wake to pop off ES and reset your HP. The downside is otherwise you'll be sacrificing a TV inside the window to use it. And additionally Wake doesn't line up with Judgement OR ES. So, yeah. That timing has got to suck.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's weak relative to its competition though. It competes with Blade of Justice, Templar's Verdict, Judgment, and Wake of Ashes by default, all of which are many, many times stronger. There's always going to be a trash tier ability relative to the other skills (the "filler" if you will), and I usually am of the opinion that the filler attack should have no CD. If you never want to press it except when you can't press the other skills, it's the filler by default. Now, you can make filler better by having it do things like Fires of Justice proc, but by default the damage of the filler skill is going to be low.

Unfortunately even if the rotational abilities were buffed, it wouldn't matter too much we'd still be waiting for things to be off CD unless CS has no CD.

[Ulthane]

I've been following the Ret Thread on the BattleNet forums (it's been hard for the past several pages, ugh), and one thing that Bryiah said really stuck with me. Namely, (s)he said that with Fires of Justice, the following rotation provided us with something to press every GCD:

CS -> BoJ -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Repeat

So, not being happy to take their word for it, I decided to plot it out:

GCDs    [-11-][-22-][-33-][-44-][-55-][-66-][-77-][-88-]
CS       1     1     1     0     1     1     1     1      (charges)
CS       3.0   1.5   3.0   1.5   3.0   1.5   3.0   1.5	  (cd)
CS       x     -     x     x     -     -     x     -      (usage)
BoJ      1.5   x     10.5  9.0   7.5   6.0   4.5   3.0    (cd & usage)
Judge    6.0   4.5   3.0   1.5   x     10.5  9.0   7.5    (cd & usage)
HP       1     3     4     5     5     2     3      0
TV       -     -     -     -     -     x     -      x

Well I'll be damned. (Note: Haste does not change this - just reduces the the time between them.) Amusingly, the despite Fires having a HP reduction proc, it's completely inconsequential. If we try to use 2 TVs back to back (Judge -> TV -> TV -> CS), we'll end up sitting on a charge of CS for one GCD (#7) causing us to stall and be unable to hit 5 HP before the next Judgement cycle. Sure, it'll still reduce the price of TV, but we'll be stuck with the above rotation, capping HP be damned.

Of course, this is with Fires of Justice. Without it, it's simple to say "we can't build 5 HP per Judgment cycle." This means that our other rotation changing talents (Zeal, Greater Judgment, and Divine Hammer) all will cause us to stall out our rotation with the base 12s cooldown.

This also assumes that we'll have 100% uptime on target. If we don't (or have a target switch in X seconds while we're at the Judgment step) we either have to freeze the whole rotation just plainly get wrecked. Transitioning between single target and aoe will be awkward because any deviation from the GCD locked rotation will cause stalls (eg: waiting for adds to spawn will mean either holding back builders, using builders at 5hp, and if we try to burst down adds by using DS at 3 HP, then we'll be hosed going back to single target because).

By the way, having a lower CD on Judgment (say 6s, equal to its duration) won't really mean much because we don't generate HP fast enough to make use of it. Using it every 6s would make the gap between TVs longer because we'd be spending more GCDs on Judgment than building HP.


I've been concerned about Judgment's baseline uptime for a while, but I've finally been able to put this into words. Our resource generation is too slow and resource pool too small to make use of it. By having it on such a "high" uptime (50%) we don't have the flexibility to use it intelligently. I still think we (at least) need a larger HP pool so we can continue to pool even when holding off on Judgment is right move. Additionally, I think Judgment should have charges, that way we don't get unduly punished for having to hold off our window. As another option, we should build HP extremely fast, capping be damned. We're already throttled by Judgment's cooldown.


Additionally, I'd like to point out that, unsurprisingly, the majority of our damage comes from our Judgment window - and the gap will increase as we gain more mastery. The consequence of this is that finishing mobs that survive our Judgment window will suck because our generators hit weakly, and using an entire Judgment on a low health mob would be wasteful. It also means that as we gain Mastery, the benefit of using DS (which doesn't scale aside from a single target) to AoE will decrease.

Lastly, as much as people didn't like Inquisition, Judgment is more punishing than it was. Why? Without Inquisition, we still had Hand of Light that increased the damage of our important abilities. Sure, Hand of Light benefited from Inquisition, but it didn't completely gut our damage if it fell off. With Divine Judgment, it would be as if our old Hand of Light ONLY functioned during Inquisition, and if you let it fall off, your mastery disappeared. That's... pretty damn harsh.

--- edit ---

If the above resonates and sounds constructive enough, could I convince someone to repost this on the Beta forum? @Ulthane, perhaps?

If you'd like to attribute the post with a character, this is me.

Going to read it through more carefully when i get home then go from there besides no mobile authenticator

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So far from what i managed to interpret is
-Judgment: charges
-Holy Power: higher cap.

[Alindra]

Not sure if it's beefier than it was, but it was accounting for a good portion of my damage in a dungeon I ran today with some talents to test out single target boss mode:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ht=14&source=4

To be fair, you took Zeal, which hits ~78% harder than CS and cleaves. (The consequence being that you can't maintain 2 TVs per Judgment without pushing your window back, as demonstrated above.) Also look at the proportion of your GCDs spend on it vs its damage. You used a total of 71 spells, and 18 of those were Zeal. That's ~25% of your GCDs to dlea 16.4% of your damage. Compare that with Blade of Wrath, it consumed 9.8% of your GCDs but did 10.8% of your damage.

[edit: @Thete, is that a premade character with high ilvl gear but a low ilvl weapon? I'm just comparing ES to TV's damage.]

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Unfortunately even if the rotational abilities were buffed, it wouldn't matter too much we'd still be waiting for things to be off CD unless CS has no CD.

And they don't scale off mastery. The more mastery we get, the worse they'll be in comparison.

[Deleted]

By the way, even with super high haste values (say, 50%) we still wouldn't deviate from our rotation. Sure, we'd have a higher uptime (our entire cycle would still be 8 GCDs, but only take 8s, so Judgment would have an uptime of 75%, so we'd have a 2 GCD build period and 6 GCD window),

Even with much lower haste levels, the rotation changes considerably because there simply isn't one. Even if you don't take any active talents and don't distinguish between different spells, but just think in terms of builders and spenders, the rotation will still change because you have a fixed window for Judgment, a fixed cooldown for Wake and everything else (including the cooldown and fall rate of ES) affected by haste. At moderate haste levels, you simply know that you will get off two spenders inside the window, so you only usually need 3HP+ when using Judgment to get that. At low haste levels, you are not at all guaranteed to get two out unless you have a BoJ ready or banked at least 4 HP and have a charge of CS ready. At moderate haste levels (10-15%), you can just about squeeze three out with Wake but it's tight - much more relaxed with more haste though. During Heroism, you can get three spenders out depending on the state of your builders at the start of the window, so you need to remain alive to that. There is never a point where it's genuinely a static cycle.

Also, this means Execution Sentence must be really awkward since neither its CD (20s) nor duration (8s) line up with our 12s window. The plus side is that it means you could make use of Wake to pop off ES and reset your HP. The downside is otherwise you'll be sacrificing a TV inside the window to use it. And additionally Wake doesn't line up with Judgement OR ES. So, yeah. That timing has got to suck.

Execution Sentence is fairly awkward. You need to build to three, use it, build again, use Judgment and then spend. Sometimes it's as simple as that, but sometimes you aren't really ready before Execution Sentence hits so you have to fire off judgment anyway and risk only getting one spender off (not counting ES which is a big one). You will also ideally want to fit two ES landings inside your AW, which would mean delaying it until you have enough points in Wrath of the Ashbringer.

And none of this is even mentioning how the use of other buffs (trinket procs, high damage periods due to mechanics, Heroism, etc) may influence your decisions.

[Ulthane]

@Thete what is your rotation?

[Deleted]

To be fair, you took Zeal, which hits ~78% harder than CS and cleaves. (The consequence being that you can't maintain 2 TVs per Judgment without pushing your window back, as demonstrated above.) Also look at the proportion of your GCDs spend on it vs its damage. You used a total of 71 spells, and 18 of those were Zeal. That's ~25% of your GCDs to dlea 16.4% of your damage. Compare that with Blade of Wrath, it consumed 9.8% of your GCDs but did 10.8% of your damage.

[edit: @Thete, is that a premade character with high ilvl gear but a low ilvl weapon? I'm just comparing ES to TV's damage.]

Nothing to cleave on on a single target boss fight. I do get off 2 TVs during the Judgment window, boss allowing (being bounced away as you're about to dump the second doesn't help) - that window was delayed on those fights because I was using Execution Sentence to try some things out. The average damage from each Zeal was also close to that from Blade of Wrath.

Yes it is a premade character, there is no other kind on the beta atm. The weapon is actually way higher item level than my gear average, which is standard for levelling. Not been long a 110 on that one. If you're comparing average TV damage to average ES damage, not that there were TV crits.

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@Thete what is your rotation?

On the fights I linked just now, my priority was to get off ES, build, then use Judgment at the same time as AW then a process of making sure Judgment was up when ES landed but in other respects using Judgment ideally on 4HP and getting out two finishers, with a third if possible when Wake was available. I try to use BoW>Zeal because of the DoT where there's a choice.

[Alindra]

Going to read it through more carefully when i get home then go from there besides no mobile authenticator

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So far from what i managed to interpret is
-Judgment: charges
-Holy Power: higher cap.

Thanks!

Really what I've been trying to point out is how limited we really are. With the best possible case (100% uptime, Fires of Justice or a no CD CS) we have no GCDs to spare. Without either, we can't generate enough HP to fully utilize Judgment without holding off on it - even with its base cooldown (not to mention Greater Judgment). We're triply limited on HP generation, Judgment CD, and the debuff itself.

It could be mitigated in many different ways, I was just proposing one. (I admit, a no CD CS would be really nice, though we'd still be limited.)

By the way, this makes me groan harder thinking about how our defensive (BoProtection, SoWrath, DS) abilities are on the GCD. (I assume BoFreedom is on the GCD. What about Steed / SoLight?)

Even with much lower haste levels, the rotation changes considerably because there simply isn't one. Even if you don't take any active talents and don't distinguish between different spells, but just think in terms of builders and spenders, the rotation will still change because you have a fixed window for Judgment, a fixed cooldown for Wake and everything else (including the cooldown and fall rate of ES) affected by haste. At moderate haste levels, you simply know that you will get off two spenders inside the window, so you only usually need 3HP+ when using Judgment to get that. At low haste levels, you are not at all guaranteed to get two out unless you have a BoJ ready or banked at least 4 HP and have a charge of CS ready. At moderate haste levels (10-15%), you can just about squeeze three out with Wake but it's tight - much more relaxed with more haste though. During Heroism, you can get three spenders out depending on the state of your builders at the start of the window, so you need to remain alive to that. There is never a point where it's genuinely a static cycle.

You're right, with a 4.5s CD on Crusader Strike (or Zeal) there is no rotation because nothing lines up perfectly. (We can only build 4.6667 HP per window.) Just keep in mind that post was answering @ruiizu's question about what would happen if CS didn't have a GCD and the post before that was making conclusions against a 3.0s 2x charges CS from Fires of Justice. With either of those two, we can get a static rotation that will always get off 2 TVs per Judgment. (We'd generate 6 HP per window with either of those two.)

Nothing to cleave on on a single target boss fight. I do get off 2 TVs during the Judgment window, boss allowing (being bounced away as you're about to dump the second doesn't help) - that window was delayed on those fights because I was using Execution Sentence to try some things out. The average damage from each Zeal was also close to that from Blade of Wrath.

Yes it is a premade character, there is no other kind on the beta atm. The weapon is actually way higher item level than my gear average, which is standard for levelling. Not been long a 110 on that one. If you're comparing average TV damage to average ES damage, not that there were TV crits.

Gotcha. I didn't look at the log overly close - so I didn't check to see if it cleaved or not. (I meant to, then forgot. Whoops.)

The weapon was a higher ilvl then your gear? Ugh, I thought it was the other way around (people mentioning that JV hit unrealistically harder than TV because gear was such a higher ilvl than the weapon). Just looking at it, I don't want to use ES. It looks so cumbersome and limiting (no benefit to AoE at all, and God help you if you need to target swap). Final Verdict might be boring, but at least it's more flexible. :|

[ruiizu]

Even with much lower haste levels, the rotation changes considerably because there simply isn't one. Even if you don't take any active talents and don't distinguish between different spells, but just think in terms of builders and spenders, the rotation will still change because you have a fixed window for Judgment, a fixed cooldown for Wake and everything else (including the cooldown and fall rate of ES) affected by haste. At moderate haste levels, you simply know that you will get off two spenders inside the window, so you only usually need 3HP+ when using Judgment to get that. At low haste levels, you are not at all guaranteed to get two out unless you have a BoJ ready or banked at least 4 HP and have a charge of CS ready. At moderate haste levels (10-15%), you can just about squeeze three out with Wake but it's tight - much more relaxed with more haste though. During Heroism, you can get three spenders out depending on the state of your builders at the start of the window, so you need to remain alive to that. There is never a point where it's genuinely a static cycle.



Execution Sentence is fairly awkward. You need to build to three, use it, build again, use Judgment and then spend. Sometimes it's as simple as that, but sometimes you aren't really ready before Execution Sentence hits so you have to fire off judgment anyway and risk only getting one spender off (not counting ES which is a big one). You will also ideally want to fit two ES landings inside your AW, which would mean delaying it until you have enough points in Wrath of the Ashbringer.

And none of this is even mentioning how the use of other buffs (trinket procs, high damage periods due to mechanics, Heroism, etc) may influence your decisions.

I personally found using Execution Sentence on CD to be extremely taxing, but simultaneously not having it sometimes meant I had to sit and do nothing while waiting for Judgment to recharge (this is with 4% haste, so that wait would be much shorter in raid gear naturally). Ultimately I chose to use ES because it gave me more flexibility, but I don't think it's easy to get the maximum damage from ES just because windows don't really line up effectively so you're sometimes delaying ES or Judgment to get the benefit to line up.

I hate to say it, but ES benefiting from Judgment actually makes the rotation kind of all over the place and I'm not sure how they can balance the damage when the rotation is sort of imperfect. Would need to be higher than average to account for the relative ease of mistakes being made due to a variety of problems (fight mechanics, etc.)

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Coming up with rotations is hard, the actual plotting is just tedious. (Again, Bryiah posted the rotation, I merely plotted it out to ensure it worked.) Removing the CD from CS actually wouldn't change the numerical strength of our rotation at all, it would just provide flexibility.

Instead of thinking in terms of seconds, think of our rotation in terms of GCDs. Our rotation's total timeframe is 8 GCDs (4 windup, 4 window). The goal of the first four GCDs is to pool as much HP as possible and the last four are to dump them. All four of the builder GCDs will be HP builders. Since we can only store 5 HP, one GCD during the window will be a builder as well, so 5 total. The first GCD of window will be Judgment, the second will a spender. That means window GCD 3 or 4 will be TV as well. So now we have:

5 GCDs for builders
1 GCD for Judgment
2 GCDs for TV
8 total

One of the builders will be BoJ, which leaves 4 GCDs to use CS. Guess how many CSes Bryiah's rotation had? Four. The only real difference between 3.0s 2x charge Fires of Justice ad a no CD CS is flexibility. Right now, if you move any GCD of Bryiah's rotation, the entire thing falls apart because CS doesn't recharge fast enough and/or will cap on charges causing problems later. Without a CD, you could do any of the following:

BoJ -> CS -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Repeat
CS -> BoJ -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV -> Repeat (or BoJ in any other CS location)
BoJ -> CS -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> TV -> CS -> Repeat (it you get a Fires proc, since CS has no CD, we don't have to worry about it capping charges)
CS -> CS -> CS -> CS -> Judge -> TV -> BoJ -> TV -> Repeat (note that you'd only have 4 HP going into Judgement, but BoJ would bump you from 1 to 3, I wouldn't recommend this because you couldn't utilize the Fires proc without delaying BoJ, and then it would desync and get messy)

It also means that while holding Judgment (imminent add spawn, etc) you still had something to use. Additionally, transitioning between single target and AoE would be much smoother because you wouldn't have to worry about the CS charges. It still wouldn't be ideal, but it would be smoother.

By the way, even with super high haste values (say, 50%) we still wouldn't deviate from our rotation. Sure, we'd have a higher uptime (our entire cycle would still be 8 GCDs, but only take 8s, so Judgment would have an uptime of 75%, so we'd have a 2 GCD build period and 6 GCD window), but we don't build enough HP per GCD to squeeze more than 2 TVs into it. Think about it, if we Judge -> TV -> CS -> TV we still have 2 GCDs of window left, but 0 Holy Power. We can't build 3 HP and spend it in 2 GCDs (well, Wake aside). Additionally, even if we did, then we'd be short on HP for the next cycle (since we used 2 of the GCDs we'd normally be spend building HP to spend them).

Speaking of Wake - it goes to show that with Fires, HP building Wake really doesn't accomplish too much - we don't have the GCDs to spare or the resource pool to store it. It's essentially just a damage ability.

Also, this means Execution Sentence must be really awkward since neither its CD (20s) nor duration (8s) line up with our 12s window. The plus side is that it means you could make use of Wake to pop off ES and reset your HP. The downside is otherwise you'll be sacrificing a TV inside the window to use it. And additionally Wake doesn't line up with Judgement OR ES. So, yeah. That timing has got to suck.

Honestly I'm afraid to ask how we would reasonably be expected to fit Consecration into our rotation given how hard it is to deviate to an AE rotation from that. Particularly if it's a constant AE fight and you're forced to use Divine Hammer (I'm sure there will be those fights). It's bizarre, because we've never had this kind of conflicting interests since Holy Power has existed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Thing is we can't change talents on the fly on anymore unless we have that little tome that lets us change our talents.

[Deleted]

The weapon was a higher ilvl then your gear? Ugh, I thought it was the other way around (people mentioning that JV hit unrealistically harder than TV because gear was such a higher ilvl than the weapon). Just looking at it, I don't want to use ES. It looks so cumbersome and limiting (no benefit to AoE at all, and God help you if you need to target swap). Final Verdict might be boring, but at least it's more flexible. :|

JV is based on attack power (and so all gear), TV is based on weapon damage. But as I wasn't using Divine Purpose and the bosses can't be stunned, there won't be any cases of me using JV on bosses unless the healing situation takes a bad turn, but had two good groups for dungeons today.

Execution Sentence is certainly fiddly to use, but I did so much more damage with it than without so a no brainer for single target bosses. That being said, for dungeons in general, I will not take it if we won't be switching talents. Even if we could switch talents, it might not be worth it if I have trouble re-applying greater blessings before stuff is pulled.

[Reghame]

when i was playing with about 14% haste there was only one point in the rotation where i waited to use ES which was for about 2 seconds just so i could judge before ES landed on the next cast. After that the rotation resets and your good to go.

Also, zeal does a very hefty amount of damage over time since you are using it so often. On sustained cleave it does a very good job as well which is why i use it as my all rounder talent in that tier ATM. (this is factoring in equal gear to weapon ilevel as well)

[Alindra]

Honestly I'm afraid to ask how we would reasonably be expected to fit Consecration into our rotation given how hard it is to deviate to an AE rotation from that. Particularly if it's a constant AE fight and you're forced to use Divine Hammer (I'm sure there will be those fights). It's bizarre, because we've never had this kind of conflicting interests since Holy Power has existed.

Well, if there are enough adds and they're up for long enough, it might be possible that Judgment becomes irrelevant and you just dump HP on DS immediately. In that case, it might make more sense to pop a Consecration. (It'd be a purely mathematical decision, of course.... and also assuming Consecration is strong enough.)

JV is based on attack power (and so all gear), TV is based on weapon damage. But as I wasn't using Divine Purpose and the bosses can't be stunned, there won't be any cases of me using JV on bosses unless the healing situation takes a bad turn, but had two good groups for dungeons today.

Execution Sentence is certainly fiddly to use, but I did so much more damage with it than without so a no brainer for single target bosses. That being said, for dungeons in general, I will not take it if we won't be switching talents. Even if we could switch talents, it might not be worth it if I have trouble re-applying greater blessings before stuff is pulled.

Sorry, I probably didn't explain myself well enough. I wasn't really trying to compare JV with anything or wonder why you didn't use it on a boss fight. (I understand it's lower dmg/hp than TV on unstunnable targets like bosses.) When people were talking about JV, it was said that premades had high ilvl gear (820) and low ilvl weapon (750). Ergo, JV (AP based) was disproportionately strong compared to TV (weapon based). So, by extrapolation, comparing Execution Sentence (AP) to TV (weapon) in your logs, I assumed the same (ES was dealing disproportionately more damage compared to TV). In other words, my thinking was that under more equal gearing scenarios, the gap between ES and TV would be less.

That's why I'm a bit confused when you said your weapon's ilvl was stronger than your average gear level, which is the opposite of what people said about JV.

[Deleted]

That's why I'm a bit confused when you said your weapon's ilvl was stronger than your average gear level, which is the opposite of what people said about JV.

Oh, you meant the characters on the PvP realm. No, I don't think you can do any PvE on those atm, but this is one from the PvE realms.

[ruiizu]

I think you all know this, but it's misleading when you say something is purely weapon damage based. Weapon damage is increased by attack power, after all. The disproportionate ilevel on your weapon is a rare situation that only seems to occur in the pre-made characters. Remember that weapons don't drop in Legion, you have the same weapon the whole time that just powers up, so it's a very different situation from Live (but even then it's rare to have your weapon jump more than 10 levels except when you're first gearing your guy).

In practice, AP and weapon damage scale together, keeping in mind the % bonus for JV is pretty high (8x), and it scales with Mastery the same as TV which is roughly 5x WpD. Either way the difference between the two in terms of damage per Holy Power is still so huge that it's an irrelevant point to talk about except when targets are stunned (and if they were stunned by you, you're also trading 1 GCD as well, which is a net DPS loss).

[Deleted]

I'm not personally interested in a CD version. I didn't like Light's Hammer as much as Consecration because the main benefit of the latter is that it's always up. Also I don't really want a ground target AE that has a long CD (it's so punishing when something gets moved when your AE is a 1 min CD). Also it's nice to have non-burst AE.

I've been asking for Sanctity Aura for years (constant damage aura), but Blizzard doesn't seem too interested in that kind of thing. I just always thought it would be cool if we did damage to enemies just by being near them. Meanwhile DKs got all that kind of stuff from PvP talents.

Yeah but that is way more likely to happen if its up all the time. With a cooldown you can plan it's use to gain maximum benefit.

Theres no fight that has constant AoE, so constant AoE's rarely have a good use.