Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Deleted]

What if they gave Ooc a chance to proc from rejuv and gave it 2 charges?

[theburned]

stuff about shaman vs druid.

Let me first point out that tuning is nowhere close to final and resto druid is in a very weird spot right now, so flat out comparing numbers seems to be of very little value.
However knowing you, you will still keep trying, anyway you need to stop looking at spells in a vacuum, you have to consider what spells we would realistically cast in an aoe situation. Just flat out comparing healing rain vs wild growth and so on makes little sense, where you should be comparing WG + Efflorence + rejuvs vs Healing stream + healing rain + chain heal + riptide.

What if they gave Ooc a chance to proc from rejuv and gave it 2 charges?

Now this would just add to the problem, removing any reason whatsoever to cast Lifebloom.

[Tiberria]

you should be comparing WG + Efflorence + rejuvs vs Healing stream + healing rain + chain heal + riptide.

That comparison doesn't make things realistically look any better.

Let's take a 30 second window and assume everyone is chain casting a max HPS rotation. I am not including talents (Flourish, etc.) in this, because it muddies the picture, and because Shaman also have talents that buff HR, HST, Riptide, etc.

Druid:
3 x WG = 943,488 (4.5 secs cast time)
1 x Efflo = 677,034 (1.5 secs cast time)
16 x Rejuv = 1,701,616 (24.0 secs cast time)

Total healing - 3,322,138
Total mana spent - 601,480

Shaman:
3 x HR = 1,426,678 (4.5 sec cast time)
1 x HST = 172,468 (1.5 sec cast time)
5 x Riptide = 783,410 (7.5 sec cast time)
7 x CH = 1,630,873 (~17.5 sec cast time)

Total healing - 4,013,728
Total mana spent - 639,760

Our AoE healing is over 20% behind Shaman AoE healing based on these numbers. Their healing is also a lot more more likely to run at a lower overheal rate, given that over 50% of our healing is driven by an 18 second duration HoT, whereas HST and HR pick new targets every tick, CH is fully front loaded and RT is heavily front loaded.

We also lack the ridiculous utility of Shaman (free b-rezz every 5 minutes off the counter or 10% raid wide health) plus effectively Stampeding Roar that would get us locked into a raid spot regardless of throughput levels. We certainly won't have any value as a spec at current tuning levels with 20% less AoE healing than other classes and the weakest single target in the game.

[theburned]

Luck in the sense, that encounter design allows active stacking (i.e. predictable damage on fixed targets), as for it requiring skill, I still don't get why everyone is deluding themselves into this mastery requiring any skill. It's entirely trivial to press rejuvenation twice for the same target, you hardly run into any risk of doing something wrong here given the Legion Raid design (-> slower damage patterns), the targets inside Spring Blossoms are either full random (>> 9), then you're just as good of as randomly throwing rejus onto anyone, or you can choose arbitrarily out of the <=9 targets inside, and still recieve full benefit (SB is smart). Cultivation is completely mindless, Lifebloom anyway (though probably not even worth casting). Regrowth too expensive and (by virtue of stacking benefits) used on tank anyway, it's simply to weak otherwise. WG selects smart, so you can use it anyway, in a best case you may stack onto it. Regrowth as said before is no option, and the overlap with a reju is so marginal, that you could probably just ignore it. Not that this actually matters much, because if you reduce mana available AND incoming damage, you realistically just go forward with either reju or WG, depending on which is stronger. If you need both, with WG being smart, you just follow up naturally with reju on the lowest health target anyway.

But hey, let's go forward with a awful talent tree, severe tuning issues, all for deluding a handful of players into believing that this new mastery requires any amount of skill. You'd probably end up with more gameplay, if you'd restrict live mastery to Swiftmend, have a duration lower than swiftmend CD.

The main skill that comes from mastery is sniping WG targets, ideally with SB hot on them aswell, generally they will have fairly low hp aswell, causing you to quickly get 4 stacks onto one target, then increasing the amounts of targets you can snipe, aswell as effect of the sniping by flourishing aswell. Germination is generally way to slow for it to be effective if it's even damage, ofc on tanks its valuable, in its current position its hard to justify picking it. Regrowth is pretty much only usable on the tank, in which case its okay, otherwise you will never see any mastery play with it.

WG though synergizes very well with our mastery and is probably the only thing that can save gameplay, which leads me to want the 4p a lot, it leaves us to be able to play around with WG a lot more, less than just resorting to rejuv spam.

- - - Updated - - -

That comparison doesn't make things realistically look any better.

Let's take a 30 second window and assume everyone is chain casting a max HPS rotation. I am not including talents (Flourish, etc.) in this, because it muddies the picture, and because Shaman also have talents that buff HR, HST, Riptide, etc.

Druid:
3 x WG = 943,488 (4.5 secs cast time)
1 x Efflo = 677,034 (1.5 secs cast time)
16 x Rejuv = 1,701,616 (24.0 secs cast time)

Total healing - 3,322,138
Total mana spent - 601,480

Shaman:
3 x HR = 1,426,678 (4.5 sec cast time)
1 x HST = 172,468 (1.5 sec cast time)
5 x Riptide = 783,410 (7.5 sec cast time)
7 x CH = 1,630,873 (~17.5 sec cast time)

Total healing - 4,013,728
Total mana spent - 639,760

Our AoE healing is over 20% behind Shaman AoE healing based on these numbers. Their healing is also a lot more more likely to run at a lower overheal rate, given that over 50% of our healing is driven by an 18 second duration HoT, whereas HST and HR pick new targets every tick, CH is fully front loaded and RT is heavily front loaded.

We also lack the ridiculous utility of Shaman (free b-rezz every 5 minutes off the counter or 10% raid wide health) plus effectively Stampeding Roar that would get us locked into a raid spot regardless of throughput levels. We certainly won't have any value as a spec at current tuning levels with 20% less AoE healing than other classes and the weakest single target in the game.

It doesn't look a lot better, but it definitely gives a better picture, which is what my point was. Also as I said earlier tuning isn't close to done, especially for druids, on top of that this does not include talents, so it may be better or worse when you take those into consideration aswell.

[Tiberria]

And, let's look at Holy Priests as a comparison in a 30 second window.

3 x Prayer of Mending - 504,840 healing - 4.5 secs cast time
5 x Prayer of Healing - 1,256,450 healing - 12.5 secs cast time - 30 secs cooldown reduction on Sanctify
2 x HW: Sanctify - 1,777,956 healing - 3.0 secs cast time
1 x HW: Serenity - 493,602 healing - 1.5 secs cast time
6 x Renew - 425,760 healing - 9 secs cast time

Total healing - 4,458,608
Total mana spent -528,000

I could have actually made HPriest healing even higher by cutting some of those Renews in favor of 3 more PoH casts, but it would have driven the mana cost significantly higher.

At any rate, Holy Priests have a whopping 35% stronger AoE healing than Resto Druids and that rotation costs them 13% less mana to add insult to injury. That doesn't even address the fact that Heal and Flash Heal are over 50% stronger than Healing Touch and Regrowth (and further buff their single target through Serenity CD reduction). There simply is no way Resto Druids are remotely competitive with Holy Priests at this point, and the nature of a 4 healer raid comp means that if you have a Holy Priest in a raid spot, there is generally no place for a Resto Druid (since you are going to certainly need 1 Disc/1 Shaman and probably 1 Paladin in that comp).

We are unquestionably screwed across the board right now, and probably need buffs in the order of 30%+ to be viable.

[Staryu]

I know for a fact they are doing healer numbers tuning last. Just gonna throw that out there.

[Deleted]

And, let's look at Holy Priests as a comparison in a 30 second window.

3 x Prayer of Mending - 504,840 healing - 4.5 secs cast time
5 x Prayer of Healing - 1,256,450 healing - 12.5 secs cast time - 30 secs cooldown reduction on Sanctify
2 x HW: Sanctify - 1,777,956 healing - 3.0 secs cast time
1 x HW: Serenity - 493,602 healing - 1.5 secs cast time
6 x Renew - 425,760 healing - 9 secs cast time

Total healing - 4,458,608
Total mana spent -528,000

I could have actually made HPriest healing even higher by cutting some of those Renews in favor of 3 more PoH casts, but it would have driven the mana cost significantly higher.

At any rate, Holy Priests have a whopping 35% stronger AoE healing than Resto Druids and that rotation costs them 13% less mana to add insult to injury. That doesn't even address the fact that Heal and Flash Heal are over 50% stronger than Healing Touch and Regrowth (and further buff their single target through Serenity CD reduction). There simply is no way Resto Druids are remotely competitive with Holy Priests at this point, and the nature of a 4 healer raid comp means that if you have a Holy Priest in a raid spot, there is generally no place for a Resto Druid (since you are going to certainly need 1 Disc/1 Shaman and probably 1 Paladin in that comp).

We are unquestionably screwed across the board right now, and probably need buffs in the order of 30%+ to be viable.

After those 30s of holy priest, you are left with 50s cd on sanctify, 30s on serenity. For you druid calculation, you arent really left with any cooldowns after your 30s rotation (maybe some seconds on WG). You also leave stuff out like swiftmend, maybe an omen of clarity proc, Yseras gift.
Those comparisons of healers can be helpful, but only if theyre done fair for the involved classes. It also might be easier to express the healing done in % spellpower, but maybe thats just me^^

[theburned]

And, let's look at Holy Priests as a comparison in a 30 second window.

3 x Prayer of Mending - 504,840 healing - 4.5 secs cast time
5 x Prayer of Healing - 1,256,450 healing - 12.5 secs cast time - 30 secs cooldown reduction on Sanctify
2 x HW: Sanctify - 1,777,956 healing - 3.0 secs cast time
1 x HW: Serenity - 493,602 healing - 1.5 secs cast time
6 x Renew - 425,760 healing - 9 secs cast time

Total healing - 4,458,608
Total mana spent -528,000

Now I don't know how sanctify works, but from what you guys have told me its 1 min (or 50 sec cd.) allowing you to only cast it once assuming its reduced to 30 sec cd. (in the case of 50 sec 1.2 times)

edit: 1,2 times.

[stormgust]

The main skill that comes from mastery is sniping WG targets, ideally with SB hot on them aswell, generally they will have fairly low hp aswell, causing you to quickly get 4 stacks onto one target, then increasing the amounts of targets you can snipe, aswell as effect of the sniping by flourishing aswell. Germination is generally way to slow for it to be effective if it's even damage, ofc on tanks its valuable, in its current position its hard to justify picking it. Regrowth is pretty much only usable on the tank, in which case its okay, otherwise you will never see any mastery play with it.

You cannot even align WG with SB, and hardly ever should WG hit those targets anyway, it's after all not just SB, but SB+RJ on those targets, WG simply won't be likely to hit them (unless it hits them for sure, but then it's no skill involved). Given the short duration of WG, you can effectively buff two out of six targets - that's almost negligible in the overall picture. Honestly, I don't get why people are still defending this mastery at grounds of "additional gameplay", when all gains which are actually in any way involving skill probably will at best sum up to 1% or so - that's simply in no relation to the huge list of problems this mastery brings for tuning (base toolkit, and several talents), and talent design.

WG though synergizes very well with our mastery and is probably the only thing that can save gameplay, which leads me to want the 4p a lot, it leaves us to be able to play around with WG a lot more, less than just resorting to rejuv spam.

Just 4T19, SotF, Prosperity and Flourish to suddenly get a tiny amount of gameplay (and throughput) benefit out of mastery. Sounds totally awesome...

If they added similar interactions to individual spells (via talents), you'd probably gotten more gameplay interaction and variation out of it, e.g. Germination adds stacking benefits to just rejuvenation, have abundance provide a bonus to all healing regrowth HoT, a talent which increases the wildgrowth HoT for any hot cast (i.e. all WG hots get +x% whenever you cast an additional HoT). Instead they choose the option which hardly adds any gameply, is somewhat harder to tune, and doesn't even allow for that much variation due to how it heavily restricts talent balance and layout.

[Tiberria]

Now I don't know how sanctify works, but from what you guys have told me its 1 min (or 50 sec cd.) allowing you to only cast it once assuming its reduced to 30 sec cd. (in the case of 50 sec 1.2 times)

edit: 1,2 times.

Sanctify has a 50 sec CD. If you use it at the beginning of the 30 seconds, and then cast 5 PoH within those 30 seconds, the cooldown will be back up well before the 30 second window expires, hence resulting in essentially 2 Sanctifies in 30 seconds.

- - - Updated - - -

After those 30s of holy priest, you are left with 50s cd on sanctify, 30s on serenity. For you druid calculation, you arent really left with any cooldowns after your 30s rotation (maybe some seconds on WG). You also leave stuff out like swiftmend, maybe an omen of clarity proc, Yseras gift.
Those comparisons of healers can be helpful, but only if theyre done fair for the involved classes. It also might be easier to express the healing done in % spellpower, but maybe thats just me^^

That's because Druids don't have any long CD spells that are particularly worth caring about. Sure, I could have used Swiftmend in place of one Rejuv for like 80k more healing - but at the expense of 8k more mana. That doesn't change the picture. Also, Lifebloom is currently not really worth casting, and certainly is not worth casting in a max raid healing throughput situation. Therefore, you will not have an OOC proc. Even if you did, your throughput would actually go down, because Regrowth is a throughput loss over Rejuv.

Also, sure - you will have Sanctify on CD at the end of that 50 second window. However, you're going to continue to be casting PoH at a reasonable rate, that will continue to bring that cooldown down, probably so that you have it back up again in 20-30 secs max. If I really wanted to prove a point, I could have cut the Renew casts out completely and just used PoH as the filler. In that situation, not only would Sanctify have a <20 sec CD at the end of the 30 second window, HPriest would be 45%+ ahead of Druids.

[theburned]

Sanctify has a 50 sec CD. If you use it at the beginning of the 30 seconds, and then cast 5 PoH within those 30 seconds, the cooldown will be back up well before the 30 second window expires, hence resulting in essentially 2 Sanctifies in 30 seconds.

Still only allows you to cast 1, 1.2 at most.
Using that kind of arguement you could probably throw in a tranq aswell, doesnt really serve a purpose.
Aswell as you putting out wild growth as 3 casts, which means you skipped the 4th (you would probably not get it due to cast times, but still.)

there is no point in taking a 30 sec window if you cant reproduce that window to almost the same extent in the next 30 seconds aswell.

It's about seeing what each class can do in 30 seconds given any snip of a fight, not what a class can do on a fight that lasts 30 seconds.

[Tiberria]

Still only allows you to cast 1, 1.2 at most.
Using that kind of arguement you could probably throw in a tranq aswell, doesnt really serve a purpose.
Aswell as you putting out wild growth as 3 casts, which means you skipped the 4th (you would probably not get it due to cast times, but still.)

there is no point in taking a 30 sec window if you cant reproduce that window to almost the same extent in the next 30 seconds aswell.

No - it doesn't. If you cast Sanctify - then PoH 5 times in the succeeding 20 second window after that, Sanctify is back off CD (20 secs has passed plus 30 secs of CD reduction). I also think things like 30 second windows are particularly predicative when looking at AoE healing, because it's pretty rare that you can (due to mana constraints) or need to (due to healing patterns) maintain a max HPS AoE healing rotation for a much longer duration. The healers that can handle those burst windows better are the healers with more raid viability in a real raid setting. Plus, it isn't like our baseline healing is going to look much better. A Priest could just spam Heal (nearly 50% more efficient than Rejuv) and Sanctify/Serenity on cooldown, and smash anything we can do (plus use less mana) with Rejuv spam and passive Efflo/YG healing.

[Deleted]

Sanctify has a 50 sec CD. If you use it at the beginning of the 30 seconds, and then cast 5 PoH within those 30 seconds, the cooldown will be back up well before the 30 second window expires, hence resulting in essentially 2 Sanctifies in 30 seconds.

- - - Updated - - -



That's because Druids don't have any long CD spells that are particularly worth caring about. Sure, I could have used Swiftmend in place of one Rejuv for like 80k more healing - but at the expense of 8k more mana. That doesn't change the picture. Also, Lifebloom is currently not really worth casting, and certainly is not worth casting in a max raid healing throughput situation. Therefore, you will not have an OOC proc. Even if you did, your throughput would actually go down, because Regrowth is a throughput loss over Rejuv.

Also, sure - you will have Sanctify on CD at the end of that 50 second window. However, you're going to continue to be casting PoH at a reasonable rate, that will continue to bring that cooldown down, probably so that you have it back up again in 20-30 secs max. If I really wanted to prove a point, I could have cut the Renew casts out completely and just used PoH as the filler. In that situation, not only would Sanctify have a <20 sec CD at the end of the 30 second window, HPriest would be 45%+ ahead of Druids.

Yeah, so if we are talking about how much healing healers can do while burning their mana, then holy priest wins. Thats what we are talking about, when PoH is used as a filler. Just tried it on the beta, was oom after about 1 minute.

I also think things like 30 second windows are particularly predicative when looking at AoE healing, because it's pretty rare that you can (due to mana constraints) or need to (due to healing patterns) maintain a max HPS AoE healing rotation for a much longer duration.

Considering your last post, then you have to include raid cooldowns as well into these calculations.

[Tiberria]

Yeah, so if we are talking about how much healing healers can do while burning their mana, then holy priest wins. Thats what we are talking about, when PoH is used as a filler. Just tried it on the beta, was oom after about 1 minute.

Yet, even when using a PoH heavy rotation, Holy Priests are still burning less mana than a Resto Druid burns essentially using WG on CD and otherwise spamming Rejuv.

- - - Updated - - -

Considering your last post, then you have to include raid cooldowns as well into these calculations.

Divine Hymn is 143,675 healing per raid member x 20 = 2,873,500
Plus - it gives 8 free PoM jumps (from the artifact) = 33,656 x 8 = 269,248
Plus - it boosts the healing for all (presumably 4) healers in your raid for 16 seconds. Let's assume your 4 healers are averaging 150k HPS (this is very conservative - most raid logs have them at 300k+). The 10% healing buff from DH is worth another 960,000 healing
Also, DH scales 100% with mastery. The template character has 19% mastery, so that's an additional 597,122 healing

Total healing of Divine Hymn - 4,699,870

Tranquility is 198,175 healing per raid member x 20 = 3,963,500
Tranq does scale with mastery, but you aren't going to have mastery stacks on every raid member. In fact, I would estimate that you would average 0.5 stacks of mastery per raid member during the duration of Tranq (probably more with Spring Blossoms, less with Cultivation), especially because some of your existing HoTs are rolling off during the 8 second channel. The template character has 9% mastery, so you can assume 4.5% added mastery healing

Total healing of Tranquility = 4,141,876

The reality is - Divine Hymn is actually superior to Tranq in Legion. A lot of misguided people keep insisting that Tranq is "the best raid CD in the game", but that really isn't the case if you have the common sense to factor in that portions of Divine Hymn are accredited to Prayer of Mending and Echo of Light and other healers on logs, etc.

[Deleted]

Because you did not include life bloom, ooc procs. I was looking at your table from last page and life bloom does seem to have a reasonable hpm and this does not even include the ooc procs. And then casting a free regrowth might be worse healing wise than a rejuv, but this saves mana.
Regarding mana burn phases, where huge aoe healing is required, how much would an innervate save there, should be a huge amount. Not included in the calculation.

[Tiberria]

Because you did not include life bloom, ooc procs. I was looking at your table from last page and life bloom does seem to have a reasonable hpm and this does not even include the ooc procs. And then casting a free regrowth might be worse healing wise than a rejuv, but this saves mana.
Regarding mana burn phases, where huge aoe healing is required, how much would an innervate save there, should be a huge amount. Not included in the calculation.

Because Lifebloom is not worth casting - at least unless you are getting a minimum of about 50% effective healing out of the Bloom portion. You would be better off saving the mana for more Rejuv casts. You certainly are not going to be casting Lifebloom (at its current tuning numbers) during an max AoE healing 30 second burn phase, and therefore certainly will not have OOC procs. Hence, they were deliberately excluded.

As far as Innervate, it saves surprisingly little mana for a Resto Druid. You would get 1 free Wild Growth, 1 free Efflo refresh, and then just Rejuv spam. You can give it away, and almost certainly will give it away to a PoH spamming Holy Priest, an Essence Font spamming Mistweaver, or a PW: Radiance/SC spamming Disc Priest, because all of those specs can both save a lot more mana and do a lot more healing with the Innervate than a Druid can. It's also our only real "raid utility", so giving it away has to be expected to be a viable option. Therefore, it is not something our throughput or regen has any business being balanced around. If they want to balance us around self Innervates on cooldown, we need to be given some real raid utility.

[Deleted]

Tranq does 750% spellpower per target *1.2 = 900%, Hmyn does 600%. Now I agree that with 10% healing boost and some pom jumps, that hymn is slightly ahead, but then again, tranq can be cast while moving. Sounds pretty balanced to me. Regarding mastery, aoe healing is where it fails for druids, but at the same time it has like double its effect on set up single target healing, also sounds balanced to me.

[Tiberria]

Tranq does 750% spellpower per target *1.2 = 900%, Hmyn does 600%. Now I agree that with 10% healing boost and some pom jumps, that hymn is slightly ahead, but then again, tranq can be cast while moving. Sounds pretty balanced to me. Regarding mastery, aoe healing is where it fails for druids, but at the same time it has like double its effect on set up single target healing, also sounds balanced to me.

I didn't say that Hymn was necessarily unbalanced with Tranq - the numbers are close enough, and some of those numbers get attributed to other healers with DH. I certainly don't think the raid CD is justification for how garbage Druids are relative to Holy Priests, Shaman and even Mistweavers right now.

As far as the mastery, you are dead wrong. Our single target healing isn't even strong with mastery anymore (given the talent changes and mastery reduction). Using the template character again - Heal does 153,523 healing including Echo of Light. Healing Touch does 84,658 healing. You would need an 81% buff from Druid mastery for Healing Touch to match Heal in terms of throughput. You only get 9% mastery on the template character - that is 9 stacks of mastery that you would need (impossible). Even if you stacked mastery as a stat and had 20% mastery rating, you would still need 4+ stacks, which also isn't realistic 90% of the time. The mastery fails at single target healing as much as it fails at AoE healing, and Holy Priests and Resto Shaman and Mistweavers are better at both single target and AoE than Druids. Where is the Druid strength?

[Chrispotter]

Here is an updated chart showing more spells and showing just how bad our healing spells in general compare across the board. Efflo is realistically our only good spell right now. Without all of the mastery stacking, Rejuv is basically a third rate HoT, Wild Growth is outscaled by some no CD AoE heals and smashed by other 10 second AoE heals (i.e. HR, LoD), and our single target is unmitigated dog shit. Also, Swiftmend compares very poorly to other longish CD spells like both Holy Words and Healing Stream Totem.

These numbers are heavily ignoring masteries ( and not only for Resto Druid, Comparing effuse without considering Monk mastery at all is very stupid).
You also ignore alot of synergy that Rejuv gets within the artifact and talents, like dreamwalker, power of the arch druid. And talents such as Cultivation, flourish etc.

Resto druids are not as bad as this graph makes out to be at all.
The latest nerfs have put druid to "balanced" IMO.
They should revert the mastery nerf IMO but in general druid is looking decent ( not op or underpowered) for Legion.

[Tiberria]

These numbers are heavily ignoring masteries ( and not only for Resto Druid, Comparing effuse without considering Monk mastery at all is very stupid).
You also ignore alot of synergy that Rejuv gets within the artifact and talents, like dreamwalker, power of the arch druid. And talents such as Cultivation, flourish etc.

Resto druids are not as bad as this graph makes out to be at all.
The latest nerfs have put druid to "balanced" IMO.
They should revert the mastery nerf IMO but in general druid is looking decent ( not op or underpowered) for Legion.

Yes, and do you not realize that every healing spec also has similar if not greater synergies. It also isn't taking into account things like Tidal Waves, Serendipity, Infusion of Light, and several artifact procs and talents. What math and proof do you have that Druid talents/synergies/artifact procs are somehow so greatly superior to those of other classes so as to justify such ridiculous inbalances in overall power. It isn't like I selectively ignored talent/artifact/class synergies - I ignored them for all specs.

Also, what empirical evidence and raid testing logs do you have that show that Druids are now "underpowered" in Legion after the ridiculous changes this build? Do you have actual proof of this, or are you just blowing smoke out of your arse?