Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Deleted]

As far as the mastery, you are dead wrong. Our single target healing isn't even strong with mastery anymore (given the talent changes and mastery reduction). Using the template character again - Heal does 153,523 healing including Echo of Light. Healing Touch does 84,658 healing. You would need an 81% buff from Druid mastery for Healing Touch to match Heal in terms of throughput. You only get 9% mastery on the template character - that is 9 stacks of mastery that you would need (impossible). Even if you stacked mastery as a stat and had 20% mastery rating, you would still need 4+ stacks, which also isn't realistic 90% of the time. The mastery fails at single target healing as much as it fails at AoE healing, and Holy Priests and Resto Shaman and Mistweavers are better at both single target and AoE than Druids. Where is the Druid strength?

First of all template chars have absolute crap gear (hello 8k versatility). Mastery scales exceptionally well for single target healing, way better than priests mastery. If you disagree on this one, then i dont know what else to say ^^ Other strength compared to priests: Way more mobile with regards to spells (eg rejuv) as well as to getting from point A to B (blink / wild charge), better personal cooldown (10% dmg reduction if skilled, barkskin), tank cooldown: iron bark > angel.
Getting a little off topic at this point maybe.

Also, what empirical evidence and raid testing logs do you have that show that Druids are now "underpowered" in Legion after the ridiculous changes this build? Do you have actual proof of this, or are you just blowing smoke out of your arse?

There was no raid testing after beta started and in the meantime a lot of patches happened, so there is no evidence anything right now.

[Koor]

As far as the mastery, you are dead wrong. Our single target healing isn't even strong with mastery anymore (given the talent changes and mastery reduction). Using the template character again - Heal does 153,523 healing including Echo of Light. Healing Touch does 84,658 healing. You would need an 81% buff from Druid mastery for Healing Touch to match Heal in terms of throughput. You only get 9% mastery on the template character - that is 9 stacks of mastery that you would need (impossible). Even if you stacked mastery as a stat and had 20% mastery rating, you would still need 4+ stacks, which also isn't realistic 90% of the time. The mastery fails at single target healing as much as it fails at AoE healing, and Holy Priests and Resto Shaman and Mistweavers are better at both single target and AoE than Druids. Where is the Druid strength?

Heal is 500% spellpower and Healing Touch is 360%.
500/360 = 1.39. That means you just need two stacks at 20% mastery rating, not 4+. You can keep saying 4+ all the time, but it doesn't make it true.

And of course, there are also the mastery boosted hots themselves healing the target in addition to the single target heals.

Other classes can't have as many hots ticking on the target. I'd say it's a bit unfair to compare single target heals on players without hots between classes, that's not the druid niche at all, it's OK that it's weaker. Druid strength is in the hots, not in single target heals.

[Tiberria]

Heal is 500% spellpower and Healing Touch is 360%.
500/360 = 1.39. That means you just need two stacks at 20% mastery rating, not 4+. You can keep saying 4+ all the time, but it doesn't make it true.

And of course, there are also the mastery boosted hots themselves healing the target in addition to the single target heals.

Other classes can't have as many hots ticking on the target. I'd say it's a bit unfair to compare single target heals on players without hots between classes, that's not the druid niche as all, it's OK that it's weaker. Druid strength is in the hots, not in single target heals.

You are ignorantly ignoring several factors - including the fact that Heal benefits from 100% of Priests' mastery rating. I.E, they have 19% mastery rating on the shitty template toons, so what you need to compare it with is 500% x 1.19 = 595%. To get from 360% to 595%, you need a 65% increase from the Druid mastery rating. Druids only have 9% mastery rating using the same 110 templates. Even if you had 20% mastery rating, you actually really would need 4 stacks before Healing Touch is stronger than Heal. Not only that, but comparing template gear to template gear, you would actually need an unobtainable EIGHT mastery stacks before it surpasses.

Sure, you can argue that Druids will have more mastery than is on the templates, but so will Priests. It's pretty clear that the breakpoint is an unobtainable stack count.

[Koor]

You are ignorantly ignoring several factors - including the fact that Heal benefits from 100% of Priests' mastery rating. I.E, they have 19% mastery rating on the shitty template toons, so what you need to compare it with is 500% x 1.19 = 595%. To get from 360% to 595%, you need a 65% increase from the Druid mastery rating. Druids only have 9% mastery rating using the same 110 templates. Even if you had 20% mastery rating, you actually really would need 4 stacks before Healing Touch is stronger than Heal. Not only that, but comparing template gear to template gear, you would actually need an unobtainable EIGHT mastery stacks before it surpasses.

Sure, you can argue that Druids will have more mastery than is on the templates, but so will Priests. It's pretty clear that the breakpoint is an unobtainable stack count.

Look what you're doing here -- you're adding the priest mastery (echo of light) to heal's numbers to get to 595%, then divide by 360% which doesn't gain any benefit from mastery.

How is it fair comparing one class with mastery to another class without? This comparison is only valid if you cast healing touch on someone without any hots at all. If that's the comparison you're doing, it's OK that druids are weaker, that's not their niche to spot heal players with no hots.

If you assume two mastery stacks at 20% rating, you need to add not only the 40% healing to healing touch (360% to 504%), but *also* the 40% boost to the two hots on the target. This is only fair to do if you include the priest's echo of light mastery in the comparison.

[Tiberria]

Look what you're doing here -- you're adding the priest mastery (echo of light) to heal's numbers to get to 595%, then divide by 360% which doesn't gain any benefit from mastery.

How is it fair comparing one class with mastery to another class without? This comparison is only valid if you cast healing touch on someone without any hots at all.

If you assume two mastery stacks at 20% rating, you need to add not only the 40% healing to healing touch (360% to 504%), but *also* the 40% boost to the two hots on the target. This is only fair to do if you include the priest's echo of light mastery in the comparison.

Are you not paying any attention whatsoever to what I am saying? The goal is to determine how many mastery stacks a Druid requires before Healing Touch surpasses Heal in power. Of course, you fucking need to add the Echo of Light healing generated from Heal into that discussion. It's part of the throughput of the spell? And, no, you don't get to add the mastery healing generated from other spells into the equation for one class. If you want to add the mastery healing from unrelated HoT effects on the target, you may as well also add the Echo of Light healing from the Prayer of Mending that is bouncing around or whatever other idiotic thing you want to randomly include.

Also, it's not 20% mastery healing per stack - on template characters that I am using for these calculations. You want to include a Druid with 20% mastery rating? Fine, you then also need to include a Priest with 40% mastery rating, because scaling up the templates by the same amount to get the Druid at 20% mastery, the Priest will have 40%+ mastery. At 40% mastery, your Echo of Light healing + Heal healing = 700% of SP. To get Healing Touch to heal as much as heal, you need to boost it by 94%, which doesn't happen until 5 stacks at 20% mastery rating.

Of course, I expect that you will continue to reply with trying to compare apples to oranges, because that is what you do.

[Deleted]

It should also be mentioned, that hot healing scales of your haste value, "heal" does not. They both have indirect scaling via simply casting them more often.

[Tiberria]

It should also be mentioned, that hot healing scales of your haste value, "heal" does not. They both have indirect scaling via simply casting them more often.

And it should also be mentioned when comparing Heal with Rejuv that Heal (1) heals for 21% more than Rejuv in terms of total healing (2) likely heals for more than that relative to Rejuv when overhealing is taken into account, because you get all of that healing up front when the cast finishes versus having an 18 second delay in fully ticking (highly likely to result in more overheal).

Not only that, but using the "well you have HoTs on the target" excuse is nonsense, because at template gear levels, you need 3 fucking HoTs on the target before Rejuv even does more total healing than Heal (in fact more like 4 when you count in Echo of Light). You can simulate (and generally beat) that "amazing" HoT healing by just spamming Heal on the same target with the GCD time you would use to cast Rejuv. Not only that, Rejuv doesn't also reduce the cooldown of a completely overpowered single target heal like Serenity - and that CD reduction isn't factored in either.

[stormgust]

Heal is 500% spellpower and Healing Touch is 360%.
500/360 = 1.39. That means you just need two stacks at 20% mastery rating, not 4+. You can keep saying 4+ all the time, but it doesn't make it true.

Don't you think that 20% mastery is a rather extreme assumptions, that's equivalent to 100% mastery on a resto shaman.

Other classes can't have as many hots ticking on the target. I'd say it's a bit unfair to compare single target heals on players without hots between classes, that's not the druid niche at all, it's OK that it's weaker. Druid strength is in the hots, not in single target heals.

Sigma actually told us something different on the class forum, that we should end up slightly stronger when compared on live, while in fact - on any realistic mastery level - we're worse of than on live (just to cut down for that case when we stack to 5 HoTs and go full mastery).

[Deleted]

Here is an updated chart showing more spells and showing just how bad our healing spells in general compare across the board. Efflo is realistically our only good spell right now. Without all of the mastery stacking, Rejuv is basically a third rate HoT, Wild Growth is outscaled by some no CD AoE heals and smashed by other 10 second AoE heals (i.e. HR, LoD), and our single target is unmitigated dog shit. Also, Swiftmend compares very poorly to other longish CD spells like both Holy Words and Healing Stream Totem.

If your compare spells, you should not give use wrong numbers based on wrong tooltips:

for example:
Rejuvenation heals for 121915 on premade (7x16513 + 6324) although tooltip is showing your number (Mastery is 8.7%; it is probably not calculating the artifact correctly)
Riptide heals for 152108

and no clue what you have done with essence font.

And in no way Echo of elements is giving a shaman the same casts as a druid with rejuv spam (2 charges don't give more casts and a 10% proc will not give you in any way a close number to rejuv spam)

I have no clue, why you have become so negative about druids, a few weeks ago you called them strong and now it's doom without massive changes and nerfs (mastery nerfs are not massive). Not saying that druids don't need buffs but it is not that bad.

[Deleted]

And it should also be mentioned when comparing Heal with Rejuv that Heal (1) heals for 21% more than Rejuv in terms of total healing

I think you mentioned that before.. like 10 times.

(2) likely heals for more than that relative to Rejuv when overhealing is taken into account, because you get all of that healing up front when the cast finishes versus having an 18 second delay in fully ticking (highly likely to result in more overheal).

You could for example cast in on tanks or people that take constant damage or prepare your hots on people of whom you know theyll take damage soon (doesnt work with heal btw)

Not only that, but using the "well you have HoTs on the target" excuse is nonsense, because at template gear levels, you need 3 fucking HoTs on the target before Rejuv even does more total healing than Heal (in fact more like 4 when you count in Echo of Light). You can simulate (and generally beat) that "amazing" HoT healing by just spamming Heal on the same target with the GCD time you would use to cast Rejuv. Not only that, Rejuv doesn't also reduce the cooldown of a completely overpowered single target heal like Serenity - and that CD reduction isn't factored in either.

Anyways, was nice visiting the druids here :P but this should not be turned into a druid vs priest debate. See you around.

[Tiberria]

If your compare spells, you should not give use wrong numbers based on wrong tooltips:

for example:
Rejuvenation heals for 121915 on premade (7x16513 + 6324) although tooltip is showing your number (Mastery is 8.7%)
Riptide heals for 152108

and no clue what you have done with essence font.

And in no way Echo of elements is giving a shaman the same castes as a druid with rejuv (2 charges don't give more casts and a 10% proc will not give you in any way a close number to numbers of rejuv spam)

I have no clue, why you have become so negative about druids, a few weeks ago you called them strong and now it's doom without massive changes and nerfs (mastery nerfs are not massive). Not saying that druids don't need buffs but it is not that bad.

The reason why Rejuv heals for more than the tooltip when you actually cast it on yourself on Beta than the tooltip is because it always inherently benefits from the mastery stack that it applies itself on the target. However, all of the spell numbers above for other classes exclude mastery (Echo of Light is a seperate healing source, Deep Healing does nothing at 100% HP, etc, etc.), so if you want to compare apples to apples, you can't include that 1 base mastery stack on Rejuv.

I think I calculated something wrong on Essence Font, or added the mastery healing on to it or something.

As far as why I'm negative on Druids right now is - this build destroyed the spec, both from a play style and a numbers perspective. The entire fun of the Legion play style was being able to layer HoTs and have extra interactivity and a higher skill cap. That is largely completely gone with decisions like basically making Germination inaccessible. Not having Germination makes the spec play completely different, and not in a good way. Not only that, but the net result of the talent changes is pretty much almost going to certainly result in being forced into playing SoTF as soon as we have 4 piece, and SoTF is just a play style that I find to be pretty unenjoyable overall.

The ability to take Germination/Cultivation/Spring Blossoms and figure out the best way to make use of all of that hot layering from a mastery maximization and maximization of Flourish/Essence of G'Hanir perspective is what was making me excited to play the spec in Legion. Now, we lose 2/3 of that build. It's why the entire spec feels gutted.

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You could for example cast in on tanks or people that take constant damage or prepare your hots on people of whom you know theyll take damage soon (doesnt work with heal btw)

Meanwhile, you could in the 18 second duration of Rejuv cast Heal 7-8 times, resulting in significantly more throughput on that target than you would get with Rejuv. You can't cast Rejuv more than once (Germination is no longer a viable talent). It's a different type of advantage, but it doesn't really change the fact that even Heal is generally a better spell than Rejuv now.

[Koor]

Don't you think that 20% mastery is a rather extreme assumptions, that's equivalent to 100% mastery on a resto shaman.

Here are logs that were posted a page or two above, at ilvl 845:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=-2&source=31

10100 stats allocated to mastery, after the mastery nerf, is 4.8 + 10100/584= 22.09% mastery rating.

Sigma actually told us something different on the class forum, that we should end up slightly stronger when compared on live, while in fact - on any realistic mastery level - we're worse of than on live (just to cut down for that case when we stack to 5 HoTs and go full mastery).

Sigma said that tank healing is stronger, he didn't say that spot healing on someone without hots is stronger. The tank will have full hots, and the mastery benefits both the direct heals and the hots, making tank healing significantly stronger than live.

[Tiberria]

Here are logs that were posted a page or two above, at ilvl 845:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=-2&source=31

10100 stats allocated to mastery, after the mastery nerf, is 4.8 + 10100/584= 22.09% mastery rating.



Sigma said that tank healing is stronger, he didn't say that spot healing on someone without hots is stronger. The tank will have full hots, and the mastery benefits both the direct heals and the hots, making tank healing significantly stronger than live.

OK, but at 845 ilvl a Priest is also going to have something approaching 40-50% mastery rating (if they stack mastery at the same rate that a 10k+ mastery Druid does), so you would need to compare the healing of Heal with 40% EoL healing to determine the breakpoint. You're trying to compare an 846 Druid with a shitty PvP template Priest.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Tiberria;40718631]The reason why Rejuv heals for more than the tooltip when you actually cast it on yourself on Beta than the tooltip is because it always inherently benefits from the mastery stack that it applies itself on the target. However, all of the spell numbers above for other classes exclude mastery (Echo of Light is a seperate healing source, Deep Healing does nothing at 100% HP, etc, etc.), so if you want to compare apples to apples, you can't include that 1 base mastery stack on Rejuv.

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Ah ok, thought mastery would give the first reju like an 8% increase in healing with 8% mastery increase, but 122000/106000 ~ 1.15 so I thought it is the new 15% atrifact powert (or the older 7/6 ticks=1.16 increase by 3 seconds). Hmm confused about numbers but ok.

[Tiberria]

Sigma said that tank healing is stronger, he didn't say that spot healing on someone without hots is stronger. The tank will have full hots, and the mastery benefits both the direct heals and the hots, making tank healing significantly stronger than live.

Not even true any more. The tank will have Rejuv and Lifebloom, and sometimes the Regrowth HoT, and possibly Cultivation if <60% HP. Germination is not a viable talent any more, and you aren't going to have Spring Blossoms if you take Cultivation, so you have to heavily adjust your mindset in terms of the amount of mastery stacks that are actually going to happen.

And, it's actually false that the tank healing is significantly stronger than on live. On live, Rejuv and Healing Touch heal for about the same amount. In Legion, they have the healing of the direct heals taxed by 25% because of the mastery. With this build, it's exactly the same tank healing strength if not worse.

[theburned]

Here are logs that were posted a page or two above, at ilvl 845:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=-2&source=31

10100 stats allocated to mastery, after the mastery nerf, is 4.8 + 10100/584= 22.09% mastery rating.

This is not realistic levels of mastery anymore, and is just there because I was heavily focusing towards mastery, while I still am this is only because dungeon is the only content accessible on beta, if not I would have 8-10% mastery.

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You cannot even align WG with SB, and hardly ever should WG hit those targets anyway, it's after all not just SB, but SB+RJ on those targets, WG simply won't be likely to hit them (unless it hits them for sure, but then it's no skill involved). Given the short duration of WG, you can effectively buff two out of six targets - that's almost negligible in the overall picture. Honestly, I don't get why people are still defending this mastery at grounds of "additional gameplay", when all gains which are actually in any way involving skill probably will at best sum up to 1% or so - that's simply in no relation to the huge list of problems this mastery brings for tuning (base toolkit, and several talents), and talent design.

First of all this was mostly as a correction because you seemed to put heavy emphasis on "casting 2 rejuvs on the same target requires skill."
But whatever we can discuss this, taking a random snip of a wild growth I found 3 targets having spring blossoms over the course of the wild growth, which is to be expected as roughly half of the raid has it. Generally I would probably have sniped those, but its hard to see HoTs with standard blizz UI which I used at the time, so it came down to health % + wild growth hot that was the priority.
The first target I sniped got a WG HoT doing 192k (no crits.) over its duration, and a rejuv + cultivation doing 250k together (over WG's duration.), after that a non-crit SM heal for 580k. total 1,05m healing.
another target had SB on him for the entire duration and rejuv first half, expiring and buffing cultivation on last tick. average and overall 3 hots on him for the entire duration, no skill here just luck I guess. 580k total healing.
Second target I sniped had spring blossoms aswell 250k wild growth healing, 180k rejuv + cultivation, missed first cultivation tick. 580k healing overall
Another target who also had a rejuv expiring got healed for 390k effective (580k total).
then 2 more target who just got passive healed from wg + spring blossoms 220k effective (280k total) (wg+ spring blossoms and 150k (just wg)

while some of it was random healing, the 2 targets I actively healed, gained a lot particularly the one where I casted a swiftmend on gained a lot by quickly getting out HoTs one target got healed for 100k more with wild growth aswell as having buffed the rejuv + cultivation by 1 extra HoT. The other target quickly got 3 stacks and got healed for 580k instead of a 380k if I didnt rejuv snipe him.
And this is without flourish, which greatly enhances the effect this has, wheter or not it amounts too a lot of your throughput is another thing, but it definitely nets you quite some healing in times where more healing is needed. Covering 4 targets with 580k ish healing

And checking further wild growths I see the same tendencies where I cover 4 targets with reasonably high amounts healing, and 2 with some mediocre healing. With some proper raid frames and flourish I believe you can cover all 6 for a 15-ish sec period.

[Torty]

I don't understand the point of math Tiberia is doing. It completely ignores scaling factors like artifact traits, talents and stats, and just in general what the fuck. Either do math properly or don't do it at all. This doesn't help anyone, only antogonizes devs and people from other specs (and rightfully so). If you were trying to drive any sort of point home, this shit doesn't do it.

It takes like 20 mins to setup an excel spreadsheet that accounts for all secondary stat values. Just take HealerCalcs from WoD, redo the coefficients and put Multistrike at 0. No need to thank me.

[Gliff]

You should probably play the class in a dungeon/raid on Beta before saying how shit they are. Especially when the math is just wrong.

[Tiberria]

You should probably play the class in a dungeon/raid on Beta before saying how shit they are. Especially when the math is just wrong.

We haven't had raid testing in over a month and certainly not since the ridiculous changes in this build went out. Dungeon testing doesn't really tell you anything about how the spec lines up with other healers, since you are the only healer in a dungeon. And yes, we are fine, and remain fine in 5 mans, but that should be no surprise. Druids have always been strong 5 man healers, regardless of how strong or weak the spec has been in raids. And, yes, the spec was perfectly fine in raiding (and probably 10-15% ahead of other healers) before the build.

However, my contention is the changes this build SIGNIFICANTLY exceed that 10-15% threshold, and are likely approaching a 40%+ overall nerf. We have lost 2 full HoT effects on any relevant healing target, 25% of our mastery scaling, 20% of our Lifebloom healing. If you had 20% mastery rating (easily obtainable), the 2 HoT effects that we lost alone cut our effective healing by 40% on priority targets, and that doesn't even factor in the other nerfs. I contend that what we gained in return (getting Incarnation instead of Cultivation or Cenarion Ward instead of Germination) is probably about 10% at best. We are not fine after what is likely a 40% nerf. If you don't think significant upwards tuning to compensate is needed, you're delusional. Do you have any numbers to actually back any of this up, or are you just blatantly drinking the Kool-aid and toeing the company line.

[Gliff]

We haven't had raid testing in over a month and certainly not since the ridiculous changes in this build went out. Dungeon testing doesn't really tell you anything about how the spec lines up with other healers, since you are the only healer in a dungeon. And yes, we are fine, and remain fine in 5 mans, but that should be no surprise. Druids have always been strong 5 man healers, regardless of how strong or weak the spec has been in raids. And, yes, the spec was perfectly fine in raiding (and probably 10-15% ahead of other healers) before the build.

However, my contention is the changes this build SIGNIFICANTLY exceed that 10-15% threshold, and are likely approaching a 40%+ overall nerf. We have lost 2 full HoT effects on any relevant healing target, 25% of our mastery scaling, 20% of our Lifebloom healing. If you had 20% mastery rating (easily obtainable), the 2 HoT effects that we lost alone cut our effective healing by 40% on priority targets, and that doesn't even factor in the other nerfs. I contend that what we gained in return (getting Incarnation instead of Cultivation or Cenarion Ward instead of Germination) is probably about 10% at best. We are not fine after what is likely a 40% nerf. If you don't think significant upwards tuning to compensate is needed, you're delusional. Do you have any numbers to actually back any of this up, or are you just blatantly drinking the Kool-aid and toeing the company line.

As someone who has played the spec your numbers are crazy town and doesn't reflect reality in raids. You are also completely ignoring a WG build that doesn't use the effected talents at all, which is the more mana efficient build and probably the better choice in most raid encounters.