Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Geckoo]

in current state we have 3 bleed counting hemo when the poisons are 5. the focus isnt changed...

We can keep counting abilities all day if you want and that won't change the fact that legion's assassination rogue gives more importance to those 2-3 bleed abilities than it does to the poison related stuff.

hovewer with the new talent with only 1 rupture and a garrote we reach ~33 Eps, so we can spam fok without problem, isnt a better aoe burst?

Exsanguinate is a great talent, but funny enough... it's also removing value from envenom (this adds to my first point). And that's fine for a talent... if they manage to make better alternatives to that talent. Agonizing poison also removes value from envenom and alacrity is just boring across all specs as much as it does help the poison theme.

With the new talent our bleeds last in a matter of seconds, with garrote on CD we only get to refresh rupture, so while the fok spam can be nice (combined with the fok trait) for a few seconds... we become energy starved really fast after that.

With the more reliable blood sweat we used to have on early builds, it was common to have at least one bleed on all targets, so we had more energy to either keep spamming FoK or funnel damage into one target through envenom.

Let's remember that unless they change how offspecs deal with artifact weapons (mostly artifact power), we need to be competitive against blade flurry.

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Hemo is not a bleed. Read the bloody tooltip

Since we are talking about the fantasy behind the abilities... hemo does fall in the bleed category even if it's not a bleed. Just as envenom falls in the poison category even if it's not a poison.

[omeomorfismo]

We can keep counting abilities all day if you want and that won't change the fact that legion's assassination rogue gives more importance to those 2-3 bleed abilities than it does to the poison related stuff.



Exsanguinate is a great talent, but funny enough... it's also removing value from envenom (this adds to my first point). And that's fine for a talent... if they manage to make better alternatives to that talent. Agonizing poison also removes value from envenom and alacrity is just boring across all specs as much as it does help the poison theme.

With the new talent our bleeds last in a matter of seconds, with garrote on CD we only get to refresh rupture, so while the fok spam can be nice (combined with the fok trait) for a few seconds... we become energy starved really fast after that.

With the more reliable blood sweat we used to have on early builds, it was common to have at least one bleed on all targets, so we had more energy to either keep spamming FoK or funnel damage into one target through envenom.

Let's remember that unless they change how offspecs deal with artifact weapons (mostly artifact power), we need to be competitive against blade flurry.

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Since we are talking about the fantasy behind the abilities... hemo does fall in the bleed category even if it's not a bleed. Just as envenom falls in the poison category even if it's not a poison.

but this isnt true, for example the first line of talens you can choiche if you want more poison, more bleed or a buff that is basically neutral.
in the 90 line there is a poison, an haste buff hat basically sound like +proc from AA and a burst of energy from bleeds (so more proc of poison)
the last has a cp generator and an improvement to energy regeneration, the last is a bad envenom+ (but maybe in burst aoe is good).
even in the artifact there are 3 improving for rupture against 5 perks for poisons (oh, anyone know if surge of toxins improve kingsbane?)
then we have envenom with his buff, mutilate that can apply poisons, the new poisoned knife... seriously i cant see where the focus is on the bleeds, or i can see partially, but only if you take hemo...

for the theorycrafting parts: i know that after the cd we dont have a so good energy regen, but my point was about the burst.
actually a big problem for assa is the lack of burst, and the previous iteration was exponential, slowly slowly and then big number, when the most of encounter need a burst. maybe exanguinate isnt competitive with bf, but is far better than before

sorry for my atrocious english =(

[elfporn]

but this isnt true, for example the first line of talens you can choiche if you want more poison, more bleed or a buff that is basically neutral.
in the 90 line there is a poison, an haste buff hat basically sound like +proc from AA and a burst of energy from bleeds (so more proc of poison)
the last has a cp generator and an improvement to energy regeneration, the last is a bad envenom+ (but maybe in burst aoe is good).
even in the artifact there are 3 improving for rupture against 5 perks for poisons (oh, anyone know if surge of toxins improve kingsbane?)
then we have envenom with his buff, mutilate that can apply poisons, the new poisoned knife... seriously i cant see where the focus is on the bleeds, or i can see partially, but only if you take hemo...

for the theorycrafting parts: i know that after the cd we dont have a so good energy regen, but my point was about the burst.
actually a big problem for assa is the lack of burst, and the previous iteration was exponential, slowly slowly and then big number, when the most of encounter need a burst. maybe exanguinate isnt competitive with bf, but is far better than before

sorry for my atrocious english =(

a lack of burst? you make your own.

I can see several ways you can burst pretty hard with assassination, it just takes finesse and timing.

Exsanguinate is atrocious because it runs counter to the number 1 priority for the spec: MAINTAIN BLEEDS TO MAINTAIN VENOMOUS WOUNDS. You get a fast burst off of sped up bleeds which gives you more energy that you then have to use to re-apply bleeds.

If you want to burst a target, you prepare to burst by pooling cp/energy and saving a cd (kingsbane) like the other specs, not by burning out your energy generator

I can see a use out in the world or pvp with an hemo/bigor/MFD/thuggee build where you put up the bleeds and exsanguinate, but that's only for targets that are going to die fast, and then the damn thing has a 45 sec cd.

[Geckoo]

but this isnt true, for example the first line of talens you can choiche if you want more poison, more bleed or a buff that is basically neutral.

The first line is a perfect example of what i'm saying. Yes, we choose between poison-neutra-bleed... but the poison talent is totally passive while the bleed talent is an active ability adding to the bleed theme.

We could perfectly have a CP generator that increases bleed damage and still falls in the poison fantasy instead of the old subtley CP generator. And the same can be said about exsanguinate or garrote.

Another example is how the only actual lethal poison alternative we get is all about removing poison damage in benefit of bleed damage. It's that really the best the master of poisons can get?

even in the artifact there are 3 improving for rupture against 5 perks for poisons (oh, anyone know if surge of toxins improve kingsbane?)
then we have envenom with his buff, mutilate that can apply poisons, the new poisoned knife... seriously i cant see where the focus is on the bleeds, or i can see partially, but only if you take hemo...

Sure! i have no complaints about the artifact at all, it does a great job with the spec fantasy. Kingsbane should be the model to follow for all artifact weapon abilities.

But rupture is still dominating the spec and our gameplay, even if we choose every poison related talent (except agonizing ofc) is still more focused on keeping up two bleeds than it is about having a great envenom uptime. Kingsbane does fix this, but to me is just not enough... i would rather have venomous wounds dealing damage again, with most of rupture traits affecting venomous wounds.

Maybe i'm too attached to the old assassination rogue, but playing in legion i just feel like a feral druid with a forced mechanic (envenom) that barely fits in the proposed model.

[omeomorfismo]

a lack of burst? you make your own.

I can see several ways you can burst pretty hard with assassination, it just takes finesse and timing.

Exsanguinate is atrocious because it runs counter to the number 1 priority for the spec: MAINTAIN BLEEDS TO MAINTAIN VENOMOUS WOUNDS. You get a fast burst off of sped up bleeds which gives you more energy that you then have to use to re-apply bleeds.

If you want to burst a target, you prepare to burst by pooling cp/energy and saving a cd (kingsbane) like the other specs, not by burning out your energy generator

I can see a use out in the world or pvp with an hemo/bigor/MFD/thuggee build where you put up the bleeds and exsanguinate, but that's only for targets that are going to die fast, and then the damn thing has a 45 sec cd.

? i talk about pve and if you watch dps graphs the assassination is smoother than sub and combat. a lot smoother.
and i dont understand, why i must consider kingsbane to do aoe burst? imho the way is to spam fok with poison knives. 2 bleeds and exsanguinate generates enough energy to spam fok every gcd. meanwhile with the previous iteration we need to wait that the first rupture proc the talent and then the next 2, and so on. long term is better but need, statistically, a lot of time to build up.

@Geckoo and this is because the poisons are passive, we improve their effectiveness. meanwhile if we want a worse wound we must work on this.
i repeat, we are assassin that use poison, not alchemist that use their poisons to murder.
and i think that the best spell that benefit from agonyzing will be envenom but effectivly i never see a recount from alpha/beta

[Geckoo]

@Geckoo and this is because the poisons are passive, we improve their effectiveness. meanwhile if we want a worse wound we must work on this.
i repeat, we are assassin that use poison, not alchemist that use their poisons to murder.
and i think that the best spell that benefit from agonyzing will be envenom but effectivly i never see a recount from alpha/beta

Actually, we are "A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes", not "A deadly assassin who bleeds out their victims with poisoned dagger strikes". I guess they need to update it for legion.

When i talk about poisons i'm not just talking about the 1h buff that we apply to our weapon, but about the fantasy behind the abilities that we use and the kind of damage we deal. As i said, is about venomous wounds dealing damage again, is about using a nature damage dot instead of garrote, is about giving talents that try to improve that fantasy instead of talents that try to get rid of it.

Actually, the pvp talents do a great job with this, i can't understand how they didn't use that kind of fantasy for the regular talents as well: creeping venom, system shock, deadly brew, shiv... stuff that is related with the fact that we are using poisons and that we are the masters of that kind of things.

[thedoors94]

I just want rogues to be fun again. The 3-4 button rotation is getting old, and like stated its more about bleeds (feels warrior-ish) and not poisons anymore.

[elfporn]

? i talk about pve and if you watch dps graphs the assassination is smoother than sub and combat. a lot smoother.
and i dont understand, why i must consider kingsbane to do aoe burst? imho the way is to spam fok with poison knives. 2 bleeds and exsanguinate generates enough energy to spam fok every gcd. meanwhile with the previous iteration we need to wait that the first rupture proc the talent and then the next 2, and so on. long term is better but need, statistically, a lot of time to build up.

@Geckoo and this is because the poisons are passive, we improve their effectiveness. meanwhile if we want a worse wound we must work on this.
i repeat, we are assassin that use poison, not alchemist that use their poisons to murder.
and i think that the best spell that benefit from agonyzing will be envenom but effectivly i never see a recount from alpha/beta

I wasn't referencing burst-cleave, but ST-burst.

You are correct in your example - use exsanguinate to generate more energy to be able to use FoK every GCD for a short time, with a gain in burst-cleave and a loss in ST+energy gen short term.

That particular use is actually a good use of the talent, though i don't think it's very obvious and the talent will be confusing to any new players. Confusing in its seeming niche use for fast-dying world content/pvp.

I still think it's a shit talent.

@Geckoo

What i think you're looking for is "Class Fantasy" lining up more with "Master of Poisons" instead of "Master of Assassination"
Objectively, swapping the effects of rupture - bring venomous wounds to the fore on dmg and the bleed effect is just the smaller half - that would let it scale better with mastery instead of attack power, but would it satisfy you? >.>

[Lorentz]

I wasn't referencing burst-cleave, but ST-burst.

You are correct in your example - use exsanguinate to generate more energy to be able to use FoK every GCD for a short time, with a gain in burst-cleave and a loss in ST+energy gen short term.

That particular use is actually a good use of the talent, though i don't think it's very obvious and the talent will be confusing to any new players. Confusing in its seeming niche use for fast-dying world content/pvp.

I still think it's a shit talent.

You do more damage upfront at the cost of the damage after burst window which is fine by me for burst ability. In terms of energy - it's net positive since Garrote is limited by cooldown, hence your overall energy income from it stays the same, and Rupture is not.

[omeomorfismo]

Actually, we are "A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes", not "A deadly assassin who bleeds out their victims with poisoned dagger strikes". I guess they need to update it for legion.

When i talk about poisons i'm not just talking about the 1h buff that we apply to our weapon, but about the fantasy behind the abilities that we use and the kind of damage we deal. As i said, is about venomous wounds dealing damage again, is about using a nature damage dot instead of garrote, is about giving talents that try to improve that fantasy instead of talents that try to get rid of it.

Actually, the pvp talents do a great job with this, i can't understand how they didn't use that kind of fantasy for the regular talents as well: creeping venom, system shock, deadly brew, shiv... stuff that is related with the fact that we are using poisons and that we are the masters of that kind of things.

? actually we are massive murderer that after several deeply mutilation can strike a massive deep strike that badly poison a poisoned victim, meanwhile we produce more wound to expose more bleed to our toxins.
and this pattern of wounds and poison exists basically from tbc, but clearly a lot simple with only mutilate envenom and instant & deadly poison. they only refined the fantasy of mutilate with the bleeds dots.

[Geckoo]

? actually we are massive murderer that after several deeply mutilation can strike a massive deep strike that badly poison a poisoned victim, meanwhile we produce more wound to expose more bleed to our toxins.

"A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes" are Blizzard words, not mine.

The truth is that historically the spec that had bleed enhancements and abilities was subtley (sanguinary veins, hemorrhage, recently sinister calling and even the mastery supports that idea), while assassination only used them as a way to keep up venomous wounds, no only because of the energy it provides, but also because it did a lot of damage.

What i think you're looking for is "Class Fantasy" lining up more with "Master of Poisons" instead of "Master of Assassination"
Objectively, swapping the effects of rupture - bring venomous wounds to the fore on dmg and the bleed effect is just the smaller half - that would let it scale better with mastery instead of attack power, but would it satisfy you? >.>

And yes, this is exactly what i'm looking for.

[omeomorfismo]

"A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes" are Blizzard words, not mine.

The truth is that historically the spec that had bleed enhancements and abilities was subtley (sanguinary veins, hemorrhage, recently sinister calling and even the mastery supports that idea), while assassination only used them as a way to keep up venomous wounds, no only because of the energy it provides, but also because it did a lot of damage.



And yes, this is exactly what i'm looking for.

lol, sorry, in italian is roughly " a master in the use of poisons, capable to annihilate the enemies with quickly strike of dagger"

"Un maestro nell'uso di veleni, capace di annientare i nemici con rapidi colpi di pugnale."

a bit different effectively D:

[Thandorr]

I think the discussion on one side or the other as far as our class fantasy is concerned shouldn't be, "we are the bleed spec," or "we are the poison spec" but it should be, "we are both,"

Thematically, A deadly master of poisons who dispatches victims with vicious dagger strikes" conveys the idea that we are indeed masters of poisons and the way we inflict those poisons upon our enemies is in a series of vicious strikes, such as rupture and garrote. It's not an either or but a both. The emphasis is on the end (poisoned victim slowly dying) and a means to the end (a bleeding victim dying over time from our small and imperceptible efforts to assassinate them).

I think the fantasy is on point. +1 to blizz IMO. Now we just need the gameplay to reflect our outstanding fantasy and design. Balance and tuning is really all that remains now.

[Calycia]

I can headcanon around bleed vs. poison theme; I can headcanon/ignore the stupid pirate theme when I'm in combat ... err ... outlaw spec; just make it fun to play and competitive on the meters and I'll be happy.

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ciE40RD8Uw

A little out of hand at the moment if you ask me.

[davesignal]

Exsanginuate really looks and feels like something that should have been a PvP talent. That's where it shines

[spartacouine]

Frist, i think the main problem on fantasy is the low posibility of poison. A bleed is a bleed, but there is so much posibility to empoison a target.
Atm, there are 3 baseline poisons and 1 in each talent tree and we can only use 2 of them.
Agonizing poison is a sputid mechanic, it's just a boost of dmg like so many other, he do not participate to the poisoner fantasy.

They put shiv in pvp talent tree, and they close a huge niche of gameplay. Shiv can be a baseline spell on which we can apply a 3rd different poison. The effect could be reduce or dependent of a CD for balance but that will improve the assassination rogue like a poisoner
And they can add more "secondary poison" which can just be apply with Shiv :

haemophilia : bleed are X% longer or bleed are X% faster
Slow AS
Slow cast speed
Instant dmg
Agonizing poison
Paralyzing poison
Madness poison (The target strat to walk/cast/attack in different direction that cound be the Blind version poisoner)
Alcohol poison (The target become drunk usable on ally)

There is so many many possibility to creat poison usefull or not (like the last one )
Add the possibility to use a 3rd poison open so many possibility of gameplay and personnalisation and enhance the Fantasy.
The poisoner fantasy it's not improve with how you poison your target, but with which effect you poison your target.


Second, personnaly i hate the place of Exanguinate, it should be in the pvp talent tree. It's a interresting mechanic but not in pve.
I think, i understand what they want with it, 45s cd like Kingsbane, use it to have a bosst of Epm to keep envenom buff for the kinsbane duration.
But It need to many preparation to be succesfull: have a fresh rupture and garote, keep some cp, and have 15s of free time. With that we obtain the maximum of it.

Thrid, what ever ppl can say on the mechanic "flash and click" like Dispacth, that isn't a so bad mechanic if the gameplay isn't only that.
And they can change it for a short bleed of 3-4s and it's could be only after a mutilate with X% chance if they don't want of a execution mechanic. Moreover, they can discharge Garotte and bring back to a stealth ability.


Finaly, my Suggestion :

Shiv => baseline
Exanguinate => Current shiv place
Agonizing => a Pack of poison, Like ammo's talent of hunter
Dispach => Current Exanguinate place


Excuse-me for the low level of english, I hope you still understand what i want to say

[Deleted]

Finaly, my Suggestion :

Shiv => baseline
Exanguinate => Current shiv place
Agonizing => a Pack of poison, Like ammo's talent of hunter
Dispach => Current Exanguinate place

Nice suggestions, but won't happen, at least not till the next content-patch or, whats more likely, in the next expansion.

Blizzard thinks we are fine, thats why they didn't change major things in the last few patches besides this hateful talent ^^.

[omeomorfismo]

but blizz cant do a lot of poison without
A create poisons that are stricly inferior than other
B create OP poison, like AS/cast debuff
this is a game, it need balance

[spartacouine]

but blizz cant do a lot of poison without
A create poisons that are stricly inferior than other
B create OP poison, like AS/cast debuff
this is a game, it need balance

Shiv has a high level of adaptability, shiv with Cast debuff can be 4s duration for 15s of CD for exemple, shiv with an other poison can be have a different duration/CD. I'm sure they can balance them with cost/CD/duration/Power of the effect.
After, yes for PVE there will always be a poison better than other, but for pvp is adaptability.