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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    Ive always wanted to play fire but the required crit stance has always steered me away. I suffered through it with fury war and gearing up into entry raids for WoD was one of the most painful unrewarding experiences ive had in wow.

    To those in beta or in general if ppl know, in Legion is Crit still pretty much a required stat for the spec to function? Thats been so much of a turn off for me anymore. Looking for a different out but I don't want to go through the same thing again.
    Yes fire still heavily relies on crit but the devs changed the way secondary stats are handled throughout the expansion. Instead of having 15% crit in T19 and 60% in T21, you'll have 40% in T19 and 60% in T21.
    This means 2 things :
    - spec that rely on a specific stat (mainly fire mage, fury war and MM hunt) will be playable in the first tier
    - specs that scale very well won't get as crazy as they used to in the last tier

  2. #622
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    - spec that rely on a specific stat (mainly fire mage, fury war and MM hunt) will be playable in the first tier
    6.2 fire was not supposed to be good at all on single target because the AOE it does is broken good. I'm pretty sure the spec is not designed to rely on an old crafting trinket and to be clunky if the strategy requires to wait for the legendary ring. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard was just taken by surprise by the ingenuity of some players to use the spec like that though it's still not perfect because it's obviously not an official design goal to not be able to use it well if the ring has to wait.

    Legion fire is way less reliant on very high crit because of the Combustion change.

  3. #623
    So maybe I'm just doing my math wrong, but on beta versatiliy is more damage per point than mastery is as fire.

    In premade gear you get:
    3192 mastery, which is 6.84% (466.666 mastery per %)
    7264 versatility, which is 18.16% (400 vers per %)

    So you'd only even want mastery for the cleave? Plus vers reduces damage taken by half of what it improves it by.


    That seems pretty stupid how badly it scales.

  4. #624
    Leveling as Fire is really fun.

  5. #625
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tru View Post
    Ive always wanted to play fire but the required crit stance has always steered me away. I suffered through it with fury war and gearing up into entry raids for WoD was one of the most painful unrewarding experiences ive had in wow.

    To those in beta or in general if ppl know, in Legion is Crit still pretty much a required stat for the spec to function? Thats been so much of a turn off for me anymore. Looking for a different out but I don't want to go through the same thing again.
    It's fine. Crit is still your main stat but you can work really well even in shitty gear. The Combustion rework heavily reduces your reliance on high crit to work at all and the secondary stat change (more at the expansion start, less growth) plays really well into your hands. With the shitty starter gear in the Legion Beta you get a lot of instant Pyroblasts. It totally works. Been a long time since low gear fire felt so good.

  6. #626
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    466.666 mastery per %
    400 vers per %

    So you'd only even want mastery for the cleave?
    I don't know how that conclusion follows that information. Mastery is not versatility so it's like comparing apples and oranges. You have to first determine how potent mastery is compared to it.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by tobindax View Post
    I don't know how that conclusion follows that information. Mastery is not versatility so it's like comparing apples and oranges. You have to first determine how potent mastery is compared to it.
    They do the exact same thing now single target, they increase damage by X%. One does it instantly, one does it over time. The only time they differ is when you factor in another target for ignite to jump to. Mastery won't add any ticks, so it won't make any talents better.
    Mastery is literally just +% damage now. It interacts with nothing. Base mastery is enough to use all the talents and artifact traits associated with it.

    I didn't take into account artifact traits, which adds 10% ignite damage. That isn't enough to make it better though.


    It's more like comparing apples to apples now. One apple simply spreads to nearby targets, which is the only reason it'd be better. Single target, it would be worse.

  8. #628
    So with Blizzards changes to talent systems such as how we change talents and to provide a meaningful choice with a focus on customizing your gameplay to suit our tastes. How do you all feel about Fire's talents?

    Key points in Celestalons last post are:
    *Options to add or remove complexity.
    *Skew what your spec excels at.
    *Opt into alternative rotation styles.


    Lvl 15 talents.
    For better or worse I don't feel these talents add or remove the complexity or the spec.
    Fire is all about crits, Pyros and Dots (Ignite). So I would say that the first 2 talents at least to a small degree skew what our spec excels at. Fire starter does little in this regard, just a few extra crits.
    Nothing is changed in the rotation.

    lvl 75 talents.
    Not sure how Ring of Frost and Ice Ward can even get close to how valuable IF is, falling into "more of a 'test', and less of a choice" territory.
    Side not I find it hilarious that we have 3 frost themed talents available in the fire tree, after pruning frost fire bolt because it didn't make sense thematically.

    lvl 90 talents.
    This is everything to do with "more of a 'test', and less of a choice". Lets say Living Bomb or Flame patch appeal to me on a custom gameplay level, I just failed the 'test' because only UM is useful on all encounters, and in a world where there are restrictions on talent changes, failing the 'test' isn't an option.
    Flame patch doesn't alter the rotation as you would use flame strike anyways. Living Bomb will alter the rotation (extra button) but you fail the 'test' on single target (or fights with low hp adds) and a useless button isn't adding or removing complexity.
    I would love to pick up Living Bomb for single target but right now thats just not an option
    Flame patch sounds fine but I would never pick it as only buffs flame strike and therefore limited use.

    The weapon and time required to power it up makes it difficult to change specs and we are required to move to safe spaces (lol really blizz?) to change talents.
    Combined with poor talent options I feel like we are very much looking at situation that is more of a test and less of a choice.

    Should legion go live with Fire as it is, I would go into a raid night with the very real possibility that I wont be able to change my talents.
    With this http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#Cmmi as my talent choice, at least on my first night, and I dont see myself changing much if anything.

  9. #629
    Deleted
    I agree with your level 15 assertion. Firestarter is garbage and the other 2 do nothing of what they want talents to do. (alter the rotation, change complexity, change what the spec is good at). Also the way the lvl15 row looks, it's fair to assume that absolutely everyone will just pick whatever sims best. Lvl15 is so meaningless, that people will just look at what gives the highest theoretical DPS and then stick with that.

    Lvl30 is mostly fine, although Cauterize seems to pale in comparison to the other two. Not sure why I should ever pick that unless I was a noob who cannot hit Iceblock before I die.

    lvl45 looks fine in terms of what they want from talents, but I fear it will be balanced so horribly that everyone is - ONCE AGAIN - shoehorned into Rune of Power. I just cannot imagine that they make MIs damage competitive and the passive Incanters Flow will quite likely never outdo an active ability. God I hate Ring of Power, even if it's now a cooldown.

    lvl60 ... is possibly okay, although there isn't much choice for high end DPS. Blast Wave is okay for solo leveling and PvP (kiting), but outside of that it will be Flame On any day of the week. Controlled burn is just a way worse version of Flame On (if you think about it) and has the added problem of proccing so late that it's entirely possible that you accidentally waste your Inferno Blast out of reflex before Controlled Burn procs the Hot Streak.

    lvl75 I disagee here. It's a utility tree. Ice Floes will unquestionably be the top choice for raiding, but seeing as legion gives us a lot more alternate end game paths (mythic+ dungeons, world quests, PvP) the other two talents certainly have their place as well. I know that from the perspective of an end game raider this row is a no brainer, but for everyone else this actually holds a choice.

    lvl90 is desastrous. It's about as bad as MoP's lvl90 row. Living Bomb is terrible gameplay wise because it's not good for single target and it takes literalls 12 seconds before it's any fun in multi target, UM is boring and doesn't even have cool effects to enjoy and for Flame Patch I just agree with what you said.

    lvl100 has potential but right now it's - as you also said - Kindling all the way. Meteor isn't really rotation altering. Using a 45 second CD on cooldown isn't really interesting rotation wise. Cinderstorm could be, but I'm just absolutely not sure on that one yet. Do I use it in single target situations? Do I use it on CD?

    All in all the only real rotation alterations for us are

    1. Rune of Power - likely going to be mandatory
    2. Blast Wave - likely not going to be competitve damage wise
    3. Living Bomb - likely going to be neither viable nor fun
    4. or 5. Cinderstorm - no idea when and how to use it yet, likely overshadowed by Kindling and Meteor. With Meteor being a pretty boring talent rotation wise.

    So at the end of the day the only viable rotation changer for us is probably going to be Rune of Power - and due to it's nature it will overshadow both other options so that it's no longer optional.



    So yea, should Legion go live as it is, my talents would look very very similar to yours. Lvl15 row would depend solely on what sims best, though. So very possibly Pyromaniac. And I'm not yet sure whether I wouldn't just prefer Incanters Flow over Rune of Power as I just REALLY REALLY don't feel like picking that.

  10. #630
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    So with Blizzards changes to talent systems such as how we change talents and to provide a meaningful choice with a focus on customizing your gameplay to suit our tastes. How do you all feel about Fire's talents?
    Well, clearly mage talents were not given the same amount of thought when the devs didn't replace the widely disliked talent tiers with something more unique to each spec. Three common talent tiers is really lazy.

    As you mentioned, mage talents have plenty of examples where the new design philosophy is completely absent, but Fire mages have it the worst. The lvl 15 talents are all horrible and so are the lvl 90 talents. Meteor is still a pitiful spell and Cinderstorm is a mess.

    And there's the shared talent tiers where Ice Floes competes with two clear PvP spells and where the new RoP clearly treads on the role of Mirror Images.

  11. #631
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    They do the exact same thing now single target, they increase damage by X%. One does it instantly, one does it over time. The only time they differ is when you factor in another target for ignite to jump to.
    Absolutely not. Mastery does not do a flat increase. It can also replenish an old Ignite etc.

    I don't know exactly what it more potent but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

  12. #632
    Any remaining ignite damage is rolled into the new ignite, the damage isnt increased in anyway just extended. So yes mastery and versatility are exactly the same on single target. The weapon trait Everburning Consumption will need to increase ignite damage by ~17% before mastery is better point for point on single target than versatility.

  13. #633
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    Any remaining ignite damage is rolled into the new ignite, the damage isnt increased in anyway just extended. So yes mastery and versatility are exactly the same on single target.
    I guess we understand the nature of mathematics differently if you think a flat increase to damage is identical to a refreshing dot just because you don't see that dot doing something impressive for you.

  14. #634
    ./headdesk back on block you go

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by pyrostorm9001 View Post
    ./headdesk back on block you go
    I to occasionally make the mistake of thinking he has found something between his ears.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    I didn't take into account artifact traits, which adds 10% ignite damage. That isn't enough to make it better though.
    I find it more concerning that you ignored Hot Streak, which doubles the effect of mastery.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Komman View Post
    I find it more concerning that you ignored Hot Streak, which doubles the effect of mastery.
    I honestly didn't even think of it. My bad.

    It still seems really low scaling when you consider a lot of other classes masteries, but meh.

  18. #638
    It's probably already been said, but Unstable Magic really shouldn't be a thing when Conflagration also exists, and somehow manages to be more interesting.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    I honestly didn't even think of it. My bad.

    It still seems really low scaling when you consider a lot of other classes masteries, but meh.
    I wasn't aware that the value of a classes stat is determined by how good it is for other classes, aren't you supposed to weight them based on what the other stats do for your own class?
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  20. #640
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by whisperingsage View Post
    It's probably already been said, but Unstable Magic really shouldn't be a thing when Conflagration also exists, and somehow manages to be more interesting.
    The talents for Fire Mages are just SO boring and unimaginative.

    We have 2 talents that give us Pyro procs

    2 talents that give us a dot + AoE (Conflag & Living Bomb)

    Your comparison of Conflag and UM is also pretty good

    Cinderstorm and Living Bomb are just outright bad. Cinderstorms damage is okay if you manage to hit it but that is a big if. It sends out 6 cinders but in testing yesterday I was lucky to hit even 3 on a target.

    And don't get me started on Firestarter, a talent that gives us crit at a time where out 100% crit self buff (Combustion) will be on and I somehow doubt that this crit chace will be converted to mastery... why haven't I just tested this yet?


    Outside of talents, Blast Furnace (Artifact talent) adds ANOTHER DoT and Phoenix Reborn is basically Conflagration "Targets affected by your Ignite have a chance to erupt in flame, taking x additional Fire damage" sounds familiar?


    I don't know man. They really seem to be creatively dead when it comes to Fire.

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