BREXIT - leave or remain?

[dribbles]

You know over and above TV's the EU banned the import of Hitachi Magic Wands - that's reason enough to leave right there.

[caervek]

To be honest, I can see it now... but when you ask me tomorrow, I'll tell you it just looks complicated. Cool as a whole, but honestly don't expect me to ever hang it up right. :P

Did you prefer it before Ireland joined?

[Slant]

Because when it comes to product safety, environmental issues or consumer and worker rights US is 50 years behind EU and is closer to Somalia than to us. Because blind corporatism is their god. Those aren't values that are compatible with the EU vision of market. EU has no interest in the deal the US is proposing. Especially since US wants to centralize global trade in US with TTIP and TPP. The underlying idea may be a good one, but US covered it in 50 km layer of shit.

Perhaps this old European dog still has a thing or two to teach, then. Be that as it may, we share more things with the US than anyone else, so that statement still stands.

- - - Updated - - -

Did you prefer it before Ireland joined?

They should just have made the St. Patrick's Cross go halfway, it'd still be a strong signal and it would be symmetrical. So basically, when you turn it around clockwise, the red band is always at the top in the upper right corner?

[GrinnersGrin]

It boggles the mind that so many mouth breathing useful idiots think the EU is a good thing.
If you don't vote leave you are self hating anti-democratic stooge.

[Slant]

It boggles the mind that so many mouth breathing useful idiots think the EU is a good thing.
If you don't vote leave you are self hating anti-democratic stooge.

Once more an eloquent masterpiece in presenting a well-rounded and thought out argument pro Brexit. Please, listen to this man and save the average intelligence of EU citizens by removing him from our pool.

[Mehrunes]

The real problem with TTIP is that like everything the EU does the negotations are shrouded in secrecy, if Europe ends up with it the citizens will have no say, know nothing of the conditions until after it's signed, but crucially will have no democratic method of changing it or removing the EU politicians that agreed it.

EC releases information about the negotiations. And the thing with international agreements is that they have to be ratified. Which is up to individual member states. Even if it was the most secret agreement ever prior to the signing, it wouldn't be after that. So yeah, you'll have a democratic way of fucking TTIP over. As for EC, they can be disbanded with a vote of no-confidence. Lobby your MEPs.

That's literally what happened, the EU banned them and with them dead in their largest market the technology was no longer financially viable. LCD never actually overtook plasma technology wise. This is why a five year old 1080p plasma still looks better that most entry level 4K LCD panels of the same size.

Yeah, no. Plasma is ahead of LCDs in some areas, behind in others. The gap closed even more after LCDs started using LED backlight. Then there's OLED that competes with both.

[dribbles]

Lobby your MEPs.

I'd be willing to bet most people can't name the EU president let alone their MEP or where to lobby them. In any case one or two people lobbying even if they could would make no difference against the pro EU big pharma, bankers etc lobbiers who have the EU legislators firmly in their pockets.

If you are happy being governed by the big multinational companies and an erosion of worker's rights then you should vote to Remain.

[Slant]

I'd be willing to bet most people can't name the EU president let alone their MEP or where to lobby them. In any case one or two people lobbying even if they could would make no difference against the pro EU big pharma, bankers etc lobbiers who have the EU legislators firmly in their pockets.

If you are happy being governed by the big multinational companies and an erosion of worker's rights then you should vote to Remain.

The EU probably did more for worker's rights than Britain ever did in the entire history of their existance...

[caervek]

It boggles the mind that so many mouth breathing useful idiots think the EU is a good thing.
If you don't vote leave you are self hating anti-democratic stooge.

Oh yes, I so believe that London cares more about Wales than Brussels does >.>

Yeah, no. Plasma is ahead of LCDs in some areas, behind in others. The gap closed even more after LCDs started using LED backlight. Then there's OLED that competes with both.

Ahead in most (despite no major advancements in half a decade thanks to the EU), LED backlighting moved LCD up a level but that put it closer to plasma not ahead, and yes OLED does move it up another level and compete with plasma, but when prices start at like £2k it damn well should lol.

The bottom line is had the EU not killed plasma we would have screens that look as good as OLED for half the price. It was a boneheaded mistake on their part, but aside from adding it to their list of mistakes it's hardly a reason to want to leave.

[Mehrunes]

The number sounds amazing until you realise that all these things that are being voted on have been negotiated for so long before the vote that anything but a high result would be a bit of an upset.

Well, the point was that for leavers even a number this high is a reason to get upset. I don't think they'd be happy even if UK MEPs voted in favor of 100% of the legislation.

[Deleted]

Stay. No sense in giving the morons running our country right now more powers to screw the regular British Joe, the fact they are unironically using regular British Joe to push this is pretty insane to me but I guess most people are pretty dumb.

[Teleros]

Leave or remain?

I'll be voting to leave.

a) I do not feel, at heart, that I'm a "European" and I do not want further political or economic integration of the sort that the federalists in Brussels are pushing for.

Indeed - I'm not European. I'm British. Europeans are the people who only figured out what democracy was* when we Brits** had kicked the stuffing out of them enough.

*I'll give the Dutch a pass on this.
**Including our Yank cousins. The US was founded on British ideals of liberty after all.

I believe that the original post WW2 argument that European countries who trade with each other are less likely to go to war has been superseded.

This claim was always rubbish anyway. NATO and the Cold War prevented another European war from breaking out, not the EU.

TTIP, specifically the introduction of ISDS (Investor State Dispute Settlements), which would allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. A spectacular devaluation of democratic process, especially considering how the Tories are busy privatising the NHS. Enter Corbyn and then a host of American lawyers will be taking billions from the public purse. Completely unacceptable. TTIP fails to take into account ongoing variations in local political opinion.

I'm always suspicious of big, complex trade deals anyway.

"The United Kingdom shall have free trade with [insert country name here]."

Bam. That's all you need for a free trade deal. So long as they meet your own domestic regulations (ie, which apply to both your firms and their firms equally), you just don't need anything else.

Democratic accountability. Rightly or wrongly I feel the EU is a distant and unaccountable institution that I have little influence over. An unelected council drafts legislation that MEPs (assimilated into right, centre right, centre left, and left voting blocs) vote on? I just don't see how this is right. If there were a democratically elected President and European Commission I might feel differently about this, but that's not the case.

You have to remember that the EU is deliberately opaque and anti-democratic, because its founders wanted to avoid giving us ordinary people an effective voice in how they were governed.

*Glances at the rise of nationalist parties across Europe*

I think we can call that one a failure.

The incredible, overwhelmingly negative campaigning of the Remain camp. Not a day goes by without Cameron or Osborne trundling out some new apocalyptic statistic. If they were to actually say something positive for a change I might feel differently. But it's an ongoing onslaught of "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. house prices and "you *WILL* lose £x" in relation to e.g. the cost of foreign holidays. It just puts my back up.

It's a classic case of "garbage in, garbage out". The assumptions you make for the models determines whether the result is good or bad.

Besides, we're supposed to trust economic models now?

Bwahahaha...

Immigration. Immigrants contribute a huge amount, culturally and economically, to the UK. I do not worry about strains on public services, although I accept that views will differ on this.

If by "contribute" you mean "mostly go on welfare, depress wages, and put an even bigger strain on public services that they basically never contribute any money to", then yes they do contribute a lot. If by cultural contributions you include FGM, rape gangs, honour killings, and the erosion of British cultural norms and ideals, then I guess they contribute a lot there too :P .

There is no magic soil, even on this sceptred isle. An illiterate Syrian or Afghan moving to the UK will not suddenly appreciate the Magna Carta or the Glorious Revolution. Heck, he won't even suddenly appreciate the idea of equal rights for women. And statistically, his children are far more likely to be worse integrated than he is (take ISIS: its generally not first generation migrants who support them, or go to fight for them). So you'll forgive me if I'd rather such people stayed well away from my country.

(Left-wing readers may now commence with the ritual name-calling...)

The costs of membership of the EU - 0.5% of GDP.

Fair enough, but we could at least use that money to pay off the national debt etc. Or put the money into [insert pet cause here].

As a tax-payer who has had to tolerate 8 years of austerity

You ain't seen real austerity. Real austerity begins with a 10% pay cut for all public servants - as we did in the Great Depression. All Osborne's done is cut the rate at which the government sucks your money out of your wallet. It's like saying "I'm cutting my monthly overdraft from £10k this month to £11k next month instead of £12k - wow I'm really tightening my belt".

The fact that people even think it's austerity is a sign of how effective mostly* left-wing propaganda has been.

*Mostly, because I think a lot in the Tory party are happy to pass off small cuts as big ones, for the sake of political manoeuvring and such.

the immediate short-term economic effect of Brexit will be negative (even according to the least pessimistic of estimations). Having paid for the financial sector's shortcoming over the last 8 years, I'd then face a further 10 years of uncertainty, possible recession, further austerity, etc.

It comes down to short-term vs long-term. If you're only focused on the short term, then vote for the most profligate party possible, spend all your descendants' money, and party like there's no tomorrow. Similarly, vote to stay in the EU to enjoy the good times now.

Or you could think ahead. Personally, I don't want to see an economic collapse, or for my kids to be born tens of thousands of pounds in debt, and with a crushing tax burden because of government spending that it was physically impossible for them to have a say over. Both of which are likely if you only think about short-term gains/losses.

Destabilisation of the EU as a whole. In the face of increased economic protectionism e.g. Trump in the White House, China's distortion of commodity markets, and open military aggressiveness from e.g. Russia. Can the EU afford to lose the UK?

It's not like we won't be (a) trading well with the EU after we leave, or (b) no longer standing up to Russia. The Germans & other northern Europeans in the EU want to trade with us because we buy all their cars and such, so expect the UK to continue to trade with the EU. Meanwhile, unless Nigel Farage has secretly designed a way to move the British Isles to just off the east coast of the USA, our strategic policies regarding Europe and the world in general will remain unchanged.

UK folk - how will you vote and what are you reasons for doing so?

First, culture. Second, sovereignty. The economic stuff comes a distant third for me.

[caervek]

The EU probably did more for worker's rights than Britain ever did in the entire history of their existance...

Most of the EU workers rights stuff has been copying stuff the UK already had.

[Slant]

Well, the point was that for leavers even a number this high is a reason to get upset. I don't think they'd be happy even if UK MEPs voted in favor of 100% of the legislation.

I agree. I don't think legislation voting ratios have anything to do with this. The Brexit is ultimately just a reduction to nationalism vs. globalism. That's it. A simple ego thing. The last buckling of the British ego pretending there is still an Empire. Should they lose this vote, they'll have to bury that pride somewhere and finally join the international community as equals. Yes, even with Germany.

[caervek]

Stay. No sense in giving the morons running our country right now more powers to screw the regular British Joe, the fact they are unironically using regular British Joe to push this is pretty insane to me but I guess most people are pretty dumb.

Indeed, we are stuck with the Tories until 2025 at the earliest, having seen over the last year what that do without the Liberal Democrats holding them back I have no desire to see what they do without the EU holding them back lol.

[Slant]

Most of the EU workers rights stuff has been copying stuff the UK already had.

I highly doubt that.

[Mehrunes]

No, it's all being done like every piece of EU legislation behind closed doors by politicians with no accountability.

That's why even the work of individual MEPs is transparent and available for public scrutiny. And MEPs are accountable to their constituents. The EC is accountable to the European Parliament. The members of the Council of the European Union is accountable to their governments, national parliaments and their constituents. Look at all that lack of accountability.

[dribbles]

The EU probably did more for worker's rights than Britain ever did in the entire history of their existance...

That's the first time i have heard someone say that the big multinational companies who run the EU behind secret lobbying have workers rights at the forefront of their minds.

[Mehrunes]

i know the media is funded by the government ive said that multiple times in previous posts

I know, I was just informing Houyi of your holy wisdom.

[psyquest]

looking forward to see brexit win and the Scotts making a second referendum for independance and staying in the EU. Then we will see what "shit hits the fan" means.