No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[MasterHamster]

Nobody did every say exclusively because of flying. But there has to be a reason for blizzard to change a once final stance on a subject. And the ONLY think that has an impact on such a thing no matter what the subject is, is a massive loss of player subscription.
That is if you are an adult being that doesn't believe in "because of whiners on the forums" fairy tales.

Such a controversial change was suicidal when mixed with WoDs "totally optional world content", t'is all.

That could very well A reason. I know you (and many many many many others) can't get the concept that the wish to fly is pretty much dream that lies within mankind for as long as it exists. I know some people can't get that people don't play for maximum efficiency but like flight just for what it is: flying. What you said is just the straw that broke the camels back.

You'd be surprised how dull players are willing to make their gameplay if it's significantly more efficient. I like the example when PvPers started to play more 5mans than BGs because converting Justice to Honor was way more efficient than actual PvP.

Like it or not, players are experts at ruining their own enjoyment if you lead them the "wrong" way with poor design.

In the end, there's no doubt that if you present players with two routes,
one with 3 hours of varied gameplay and 1 good item in the end,
or a boring 2 hour grind that rewards 2 equal items, they'll choose the latter route.

MMORPG design is a lot about working both with and AGAINST player psychology.

Garrisons have been a huge mistake. But actually garrisons counter your arguments. So you say that people like flight just for convenience reasons. So together that there is no reason to traverse bad Map design and everything right at your hand in your garrison, WOD must have been the most successful expansion of all times. Because if all people want from flying is convenience there is NOTHING more convenient than the garrison.

But again: Most people don't play for maximum efficiency. They play for fun. And if you can get that concept or not doesn't matter, but i bet you a fortune that flight does mean "fun" to way more people that it means "efficiency".

I'm not sure when exactly I said flight is just for convenience. It's the effects flight has on other content I'm worried about.
And I've said myself that garrisons is part of the problem since it's more or less self-sufficient so I'm not certain where this argument comes from.

And it doesn't really matter if flight is what people find "fun" or not because if players gets to choose between 100% ground travel or 310% flight 100% safely in the air, the "choice" is no choice at all.

Oh that's a bet i would hold, bet a pile of money and start counting the money i get from you. Simply because flight isn't simply a "way of transportation" for most people. I imagine flight being out of the game in MOP.... Oh man, the numbers would have hit the ground hard even before WoD.

MoP had so much more longevity and world content that I am very sceptical. 5.0 kept me occupied for a loooong time while 6.0 about 10 days, barring raids.

So my question: do you look at what you write? I mean, all your arguments lead to Blizzard becoming a bad developer that tries to cover their lazy efforts by cutting "convenience and speed" from the game. So the mechanic behind that thing that is fun to most people. And yes i just said flight haters are in a minority, because they are. And they always have been.

My arguments points to what happens to the game's longevity when they cut all these things that take time. And they did so due to player feedback.
Draenor is what the community in MoP apparently wanted. All optional, and thus irrelevant.

And yes, people that "hate flight" are a minority... this isn't about majorities, because asking what a "majority wants" in a MMORPG doesn't make any sense.

Hey do you want raid bosses to drop loot on every kill for every member of the raid?
Would a majority say "no, we'll overgear the raid in like 2 lockouts and that's bad for the longevity of the game" ?
I doubt it. Doesn't mean they're wrong.

So what do you want to discuss with your lengthly essay about "Blizzard's bad game design" (which has nothing to do nor is it related to flying)? You try to discuss away that Blizzard changed stance on no flight, try to say that It can't be that many people that quit over flying with what? Right nothing but assumptions. Do you have ANY hard fact or proof for it? Neither do i. But the fact that flight came back after they decided to cut it from the game and future content tells me: you are wrong. Sure they have been many reasons for people to quit. But no-flight has definitely been one of them.

When world content has the components that keeps players occupied, having things worth striving for and keeps them feeling like they're progressing at a fair rate while the next content patch is being developed, flight or no-flight doesn't matter.

Blizzard chose the absolute worst timing ever to attempt to remove flight and I will never contest that. Had Draenor been like Wrath or MoP I wouldn't have cared about the loss of flight, because I'd have things to do anyway. And things taking time means I don't feel like half my gametime is travel. Or 95% travel when I was sweeping treasures due to no longer being at the mercy of terrain and physics to actually reach those treasures...

[SirCowdog]

When world content has the components that keeps players occupied, having things worth striving for and keeps them feeling like they're progressing at a fair rate while the next content patch is being developed, flight or no-flight doesn't matter.

If the content in Legion is that strong, then why not allow players to unlock flight if they want it, and let the content speak for itself instead of locking it behind the completion wall?

[wing5wong]

And INTEGRATED to the world design (Icecrown, Storm Peaks), do not forget.

Integrated as in, flying to the ground zone. So excite

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If the content in Legion is that strong, then why not allow players to unlock flight if they want it, and let the content speak for itself instead of locking it behind the completion wall?

Because it's not needed for the content

The downside... You have to use a flight path and actually work towards obtaining something.
I just can't imagine having to grind rep from honoured to revered. Ridiculous, I actually even start a couple thousand in after levelling

[salerac]

I just wished there weren't four difficulties

[SirCowdog]

Because it's not needed for the content

The downside... You have to use a flight path and actually work towards obtaining something.
I just can't imagine having to grind rep from honoured to revered. Ridiculous, I actually even start a couple thousand in after levelling

As usual, you completely miss the point.

[Zalamander]

Because it's not needed for the content

The downside... You have to use a flight path and actually work towards obtaining something.
I just can't imagine having to grind rep from honoured to revered. Ridiculous, I actually even start a couple thousand in after levelling

With this amazing logic we can just say right away that the game isn't needed at all.
Whats the point of the game if it wont let people play the way they love?

[wing5wong]

With this amazing logic we can just say right away that the game isn't needed at all.
Whats the point of the game if it wont let people play the way they love?

You're trying to change the core of the game though, that's the point.
Wow is not an open world adventure game, and has never been designed that way.

Flying 'content' has been limited to targeting reticule bombs and 'extreme gating' of content by requiring you to fly up the mountain to do something.

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As usual, you completely miss the point.

I know your stance. You want more flying content. An admirable stance, and I've never said this is a bad position.
Flying as a requirement for playing the game how you want to is not a thing. Wow isn't made as a play your own adventure game.

Flying can be in at 60% speed, the base flight speed, then upgraded after pathfinder is complete. Still an issue? I bet the complaints would remain because the argument isn't actually about flying at this point, it's about doing things as quickly as possible with as little imbetween as possible to slow you down.

[SirCowdog]

Flying can be in at 60% speed, the base flight speed, then upgraded after pathfinder is complete. Still an issue? I bet the complaints would remain because the argument isn't actually about flying at this point, it's about doing things as quickly as possible with as little imbetween as possible to slow you down.

I'd be more ok with that setup than no flying at all and the lockout for an unknown amount of time. Although TBH, 60% speed IS slowing people down even more than flight paths and regular mounts, but at least it would allow people to get past annoying terrain if they wanted to. I would be more in favor of having a staggered increase in flight speed based on how much of Pathfinder you'd completed, rather than a simple binary on or off state.

[Mafic]

Good. WoD was handled well, it just took too long to be implemented. I am glad they are aware right from the get go how they are rolling it out.

You can't say it was handled well when they almost removed flying form the game forever.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I heard the movie was pretty good. I flew to Germany to see it.

[Daffan]

There's something that irks me when ideas that seriously clashes with working game design gets so full of itself it starts to think it's good for the game if "a majority supports it". There's a shitload of things a majority of players would gladly support even if in the end it'd decrease their enjoyment and make them run out of things to do faster. Hey do you want item recipes to require less materials? Do you want raid lockouts removed? Do you want factions to require less effort/time to hit Exalted? Do you think teleports immediately into the raid of choice should be available? Do you want an "option" to make leveling even faster?
How many do you think would say no if Blizzard asked if we wanted bosses to drop more loot?

Ah those poor souls that'd stand there asking "But... how quickly will we then overgear the raid? What then? How fun is it if you get showered in gear and get fully decked in 3 weeks?"

Just look at the bads now for proof of this in WoD. They are;

Happy about: Free & easy high item level conquest/honor gear (700), LFR gear (695), Baleful (705).

Complaining about: No relevant content, nothing worth doing, why is there content drought?

It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. When all they do is hit level 100, afk in a battleground/lfr.

[SirCowdog]

Complaining about: No relevant content, nothing worth doing, why is there content drought? .

A content drought is when the game has no new content released in over a year. It's a legitimate question to ask why that is.

[Zalamander]

You're trying to change the core of the game though, that's the point.
Wow is not an open world adventure game, and has never been designed that way.

Yes it is, and always was... until WoD came along, that's my point. When we finally got flying in WoD it became even more obvious how ridiculous on rails they made the world.
Did you know that if you go to Gorgrond as lvl91 you cant even interact with the world. cant click on the "treasures", require lvl92 to pickup this small rock from the ground...
Compared to vanilla its a bad joke. there was barely any level requirements anywhere and you could progress as you level up wherever you saw fit, that made the world open and interesting.
Even as late as MoP we still had freedom to pick zones in different order while leveling up. tho I hear its going to be more like that in Legion I don't know how its going to work out yet. I'm worried that the system of dynamic monster levels will make it so that you never feel your character getting stronger.

[wing5wong]

Yes it is, and always was... until WoD came along, that's my point. When we finally got flying in WoD it became even more obvious how ridiculous on rails they made the world.
Did you know that if you go to Gorgrond as lvl91 you cant even interact with the world. cant click on the "treasures", require lvl92 to pickup this small rock from the ground...
Compared to vanilla its a bad joke. there was barely any level requirements anywhere and you could progress as you level up wherever you saw fit, that made the world open and interesting.

Level requirements have been in wow since vanilla, what are you talking about.
at level 1 i couldnt go to EPL and interact with the quest givers or do dungeons, i couldnt even get to westfall or duskwood to do anything useful. In fact, i cant name one single location in vanilla that is even remotely 'open world' content allowing you to do what you want. Every single aspect of questing and levelling is tied to hubs.

Vanilla didnt have treasures, so your comparison is meaningless.
Just no. Get your rose tinted glasses off.

Vanilla had more zones overall, but it was definitely NOT an open world for you to level in and explore where you saw fit. it was also the primary game, and a physically much larger to contain levelling content and dungeons for 1-60. That is a huge difference to a 10level expansion.

Even as late as MoP we still had freedom to pick zones in different order while leveling up. tho I hear its going to be more like that in Legion I don't know how its going to work out yet. I'm worried that the system of dynamic monster levels will make it so that you never feel your character getting stronger.

Here's how it works. you choose the zone, you level in it. The monsters get harder, you get stronger.
pretty simple really.
I suggest playing beta before complaining about it.

[Zalamander]

Level requirements have been in wow since vanilla, what are you talking about.
at level 1 i couldnt go to EPL and interact with the quest givers or do dungeons, i couldnt even get to westfall or duskwood to do anything useful. In fact, i cant name one single location in vanilla that is even remotely 'open world' content allowing you to do what you want. Every single aspect of questing and levelling is tied to hubs.

Vanilla didnt have treasures, so your comparison is meaningless.
Just no. Get your rose tinted glasses off.

... Not sure if trolling by completely missing the point deliberately..
Or I guess you might be one of thoes gamers only able to think in stright lines and think that even open worlds are linear because you cant even think about doing things in a different order.

Ok, lets put it this way then. My character is geared and strong enough to easily beat level 94-95 content while its still level 91, yet the game wont even let me interact with quest givers that "require" level 92. understand? that's the difference between now and vanilla.
In vanilla you could get quests in stranglethorn vale to go see a guy in stormwind to go get something in arathi highlands etc. very tied to hubs?
You could also easily level up by just grinding or running instances. Questing weren't the only way to play, while now you barely get any XP from killing monsters in or out of instances and most quests for instances are gone as well.

Back to open world:
For instance Burning Crusade I skipped hellfire(first zone) completely with most chars, just ran to Zangarmarsh and started questing there right away because the content in Hellfire peninsula weren't challenging enough at their gear level. WotLK had two different start zones, you could do one or both, two different next zone, same there do one or both or alternate between them. same for cataclysm, several different areas and zones for same level range. Even still in MoP after dining 86 you could pick from either valley of the four winds or Krasarang Wilds or do both and skip kun-lai summit. WoD is so far the first and only linear WoW expansion.

[Goshko]

Even as late as MoP we still had freedom to pick zones in different order while leveling up. tho I hear its going to be more like that in Legion I don't know how its going to work out yet.

You can quest in every zone (except Suramar), just pick up the starting quest from your class hall, it's pretty good in that regard.

I'm worried that the system of dynamic monster levels will make it so that you never feel your character getting stronger.

I'll put it this way - do you enjoy getting dazed and dismounted by everyone and their grandma? If yes you're in for a treat. If no - I'm sure you'll learn to love it eventually.

But seriously you do feel stronger with more gear at 110. While leveling? Not so much. Actually the higher your ilvl is now the greater the disconnect will be since trash will grow in strength ever level while you'll be mostly static (if you're in mythic gear you're unlikely to get upgrades before 105-106).

[wing5wong]

Ok, lets put it this way then. My character is geared and strong enough to easily beat level 94-95 content while its still level 91, yet the game wont even let me interact with quest givers that "require" level 92. understand? that's the difference between now and vanilla.
In vanilla you could get quests in stranglethorn vale to go see a guy in stormwind to go get something in arathi highlands etc. very tied to hubs?
You could also easily level up by just grinding or running instances. Questing weren't the only way to play, while now you barely get any XP from killing monsters in or out of instances and most quests for instances are gone as well.

instance runs are still viable ways to level if you want to.
Grinding mobs was never efficient outside of exploiting spawn rates. No one is stopping you doing it if you want to.
Skipping zones isnt good design at all, its wasted resources, hence the scaling tech in place now.
Yes, the main questing was done from hubs in vanilla. just because a quest took you to a different zone doesnt change that fact.

Back to open world:
For instance Burning Crusade I skipped hellfire(first zone) completely with most chars, just ran to Zangarmarsh and started questing there right away because the content in Hellfire peninsula weren't challenging enough at their gear level. WotLK had two different start zones, you could do one or both, two different next zone, same there do one or both or alternate between them. same for cataclysm, several different areas and zones for same level range. Even still in MoP after dining 86 you could pick from either valley of the four winds or Krasarang Wilds or do both and skip kun-lai summit. WoD is so far the first and only linear WoW expansion.

Again, skipping zones isnt good design at all, and now you're trying to tell me that WoD is linear because.......?
You have 5 zones in legion to choose from at any time, and the difficulty will match your player power more or less depending on what gear you have.
That doesnt make it open world though. the experience comes from fixed locations, in strict story lines.

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I'll put it this way - do you enjoy getting dazed and dismounted by everyone and their grandma? If yes you're in for a treat. If no - I'm sure you'll learn to love it eventually.

Strafe keys people. Strafe keys.

[Zalamander]

Again, skipping zones isnt good design at all

Yes! it is! you say nothing to motivate that ignorant statement. on the contrary. forcing players to play all content linear is bad design. Open world, play how, where, when you like is good design.

[wing5wong]

Yes! it is! you say nothing to motivate that ignorant statement. on the contrary. forcing players to play all content linear is bad design. Open world, play how, where, when you like is good design.

here guys, we spent months buildings this content.
please, dont play it

[Zalamander]

here guys, we spent months buildings this content.
please, dont play it

Forcing players to do all content, interesting or not is just like saying, please don't play our game.
People are free to do what they find interesting, always. Even in DoW most players skipped content the only way possible. when you ding 100 you abandon all quest in the log before finishing the last zone and start trying to enjoy the end game content instead of questing the linear story, because enjoying the game as an open world with choices are way more enjoyable than following the quest line.