Dalai Lama says 'Germany cannot become an Arab country.'

[Slant]

Hmm..
You claim that people are responsible for their actions, that they made the choice..
Then why are you trying to put the blame on Islam instead of the individuals themselves?

Too complicated for them. They prefer an easy to digest black/white formula so they can properly hate on someone.

[Mayhem]

There sadly are enough guillable enough German girls that fall for the "southern charme" to take. And, given these men more often than not stick to their values regarding women, who do you think would mostly govern the offspring's upbringing? (And the girls' lives on top of that.)

No there aren´t as shown by marriage numbers.

And without immigration, you'd rid of problems with integration just fine. It would in fact be the easiest way there is. I'm not saying that I would prefer this as a solution, but I'm saying that your argument is pretty much void.

Problems with integration isn´t something that only happens to immigrants, that is happening to locals too. How does it make my argument void? It IS a problem with integration, not with immigrants. Examples: every integrated immigrant.

They are. You're just telling us that immigrants are 33.33% more likely to commit crimes than local folks yourself. You made your oppositions points here, on all accounts.

That´s not how this works. They are 0.7% more likely to commit crimes, that is really a shocking number, yes we should do something against that.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmm..
You claim that people are responsible for their actions, that they made the choice..
Then why are you trying to put the blame on Islam instead of the individuals themselves?

Wait, they don´t a hive mind?

[Frozen Death Knight]

The problem is, religion of Islam historically and geographically collided with some of the most ruthless cultures this planet has to offer. Long before Islam, Middle Eastern region was an apex of violence and corruption. Then Islam appeared in the same region; it was only logical that the teachings would be twisted and perverted by power hungry zealots, much like Christianity was twisted and perverted during the period of Inquisition - only to a higher degree, due to the specifics of the region. There is a lot of peaceful Islam practitioners on this planet (living mostly in First World countries, for apparent reasons) that believe in gender equality, in pacifism, in separation of religion from the government, etc. This indicated that it is not Islam that causes problems; rather, it is people using perverted versions of Islam to control the crowds that are to blame. EVEN IF there is something in Quran justifying violence and sexism (I wouldn't know, since I've never read a single word from that book), people don't have to take it literally; Quran, Bible and other such books can be used just as a general moral guidance, people have to understand that the books were written very long time ago, when the world was completely different - and some do understand that.

So no, it is not Islam that is a problem. It is not Arabs that are a problem either. It is just the way history went in that region. If, instead of Islam, Middle East was dominated by, say, Christianity, or Buddhism, or Atheism - do you really think it would be in a better state now? All religions and lack of religions can lead to horrendous regimes: Islam (Iran), Christianity (Inquisitor Spain), Buddhism (Burma), Atheism (North Korea)... It is not about religion, it is about history and society.

Why are you throwing in Atheism into the mix and mentioning North Korea? The leader of that country has reached the point of apotheosis and become deified, which has absolutely nothing to do with Atheism at all.

Also, while I think that the region has played a major part in forming the issues we see today, Islam is still a problem regardless. Also, how exactly have they "perverted" the religion when you just stated that it was formed around a region that historically has been very violent? You can't in one breath argue that a religion formed by an actual warlord was formed by its (violent) surroundings and then in the next breath exclaim that some practitioners have perverted the religion to become violent when there are people who practice the religion in a peaceful manner. These ideas do not go together at all.

[Mayhem]

And they don't change ever or something. Got it.

Well it doesn´t look like it is changing since there are quite the number of immigrants in germany for a few decades now. On what do you base the idea that it will change?

By this point you're only grasping for straws. We're not talking about a tiny percentage of socially awkward personalities, but of a large chunk of several peoples.

Who to the vast majority remain respectable people.

I can just es effortlessly name the failed ones as a counter argument of the same value. (None.)

Well of course, without people there would be no crime, that still isn´t an argument against immigration, since the positive outweights the negative.

Who are you to say that that's not how it works? According to these numbers, given a cardinally equal sample set of both groups, for each criminal native person there are 3.33 criminal immigrants. Even worse: I made a mistake in my calculation. They are 333% more likely to become criminal, not 33.33%!

Isn´t that the outcome and not the likelyness? There are three times more immigrant than local criminals, but the likelyness of an immigrant becoming criminal is almost as low as that of a local.

[May90]

So totally unlike Europe then. Or Asia. Or Central America. Or Africa.

I mean Britain had several attempted genocides occur since the Romans conquered most of the isles. The Celts and Picts were almost wiped out, then Christianity arrived and killed pagans who refused to convert. And then we had the Saxons and Vikings and Normans. And later on Welsh and Cornish culture was practically removed from existance by puritans. Then the Irish. And then we moved on to America and started killing the Natives.

Newsflash: history the world over is violent. All humans have been unbelievably shit to each other. Pointing the finger at the Middle East as being 'different' smacks of ignorance and fear.

It's not Islam's fault. It's not the Arab's fault. They couldn't help themselves. They're slaves to history.

Yeah stop infantalizing them. Whatever the roots, people are responsible for their actions. They ultimately made the choice. Expecting people not to murder each other is not a high standard in my opinion.

Lol, I don't think you guys actually read my comment. I was talking exactly about Islam not being unique or special.

Why are you throwing in Atheism into the mix and mentioning North Korea? The leader of that country has reached the point of apotheosis and become deified, which has absolutely nothing to do with Atheism at all.

Also, while I think that the region has played a major part in forming the issues we see today, Islam is still a problem regardless. Also, how exactly have they "perverted" the religion when you just stated that it was formed around a region that historically has been very violent? You can't in one breath argue that a religion formed by an actual warlord was formed by its (violent) surroundings and then in the next breath exclaim that some practitioners have perverted the religion to become violent when there are people who practice the religion in a peaceful manner. These ideas do not go together at all.

North Korean ideology, Juche, is based on political communism, which is a strongly atheist ideology. Of course, cult of personality is there; perhaps, the strongest one in human history - and yes, it does bear some resemblance to religion... But it is not religion per se.

Islam is not the problem; it is merely a tool in promoting their culture of violence. Like I said, there are many peaceful practitioners of Islam all over the world; that fact alone shows that Islam in itself is not inherently violent. I see your point though, and yes, I agree that Islam appearing in violent surroundings is likely to be built in a way that justifies that violence - however, even that is up to individual interpretation of religion. There is nothing wrong with Islam; there is something wrong with the regimes employing it as their primary religion though.

[Mayhem]

Since there was a quite recent influx of new immigrants to Germany, as you probably are aware of, these numbers are actually quite likely to shift. I don't believe that the numbers you gave took these into account already - in fact, the effect will probably only be visible after a couple of years, when the immigrant population has spread from the current shelters into regular homes.

These new immigrants are even less likely to marry a german.

Most, yes.

I'm not sure if we agree an the latter part, but the first one is desparate. If a clear distinction between two groups can be made, both in crime rates and (cultural) heritage, and both factors correlate heavily, then one of those groups would be left with less problems if separated as opposed to when being combined. Sure, "cutting" at the "crime-line" would give ideal results, but that has the slight problem of being unable to send local people back, since there is no "back". Making the "cut" at the heritage-line on the other hand is a lot more reasonable, for a variety of reasons on top of that. (Most of them are illegally here to begin with, for example.)

Well a clear distinction can´t be made since immigrants is not just one culture but a number of cultures. It´s not just muslims i´m talking about, it´s immigrants as a whole, quite a bunch of them are germans. (the numbers i gave are from austria and include every foreign nation)

That would be correct. But the net result is, that the overall crime-rate would be expected to multiply by 3 in the unlikely scenario of all of a country adopting the foreign culture. (I'd actually expect it to have a steep self-powering effect, because so far at least some criminally inclined immigrants might actually be kept in check by current laws and police forces. A culture more accepting of certain types of violence however, is more likely to change laws to accommodate and relfect this once influencial enough.)
I really don't want to know the dark count on crimes that aren't reported to any officials in the ghettoized areas, where not German courts decide, but local "sharia referees", that get appointed by the "society" (read: powerfull men that have an interest in such people being in their favor, because they have to use them frequently). Immams are often in such a position, and while there are many decent ones, we know for a fact that there is also the type that actively recruits teens into radical groups. Given the power they probably have behind them, who is more likely to gain such an "elected" position?

Read above, that´s not the number of one culture it´s the number of immigrants. There are no sharia laws or ghettoized areas that i know of in austria. Also i don´t know of any sharia law areas in germany that actually decide on criminal acts. As it seems the far right/extreme right are gaining way more momentum than any imam in germany or austria could even dare to dream of. The largest increase in crime was in crimes with extreme right motivation. They also commit acts of terror, but of course they aren´t titled as such.

[Quien Soy Yo]

The problem is, religion of Islam historically and geographically collided with some of the most ruthless cultures this planet has to offer.

Tell me, o enlightened one, which cultures are you referring to?

Middle Eastern region

This is a meaningless geographical term (particularly in this context) that was conceived in the American war room. During the height of the British Empire the region was known as the Near East.

So no, it is not Islam that is a problem. It is not Arabs that are a problem either.

Who are the Arabs? Where did they come from and who classifies as one?


As it is, your posts reek of that sulfuric smell of pseudointellectualism and they are making me doubt you have read a single page on the subject. If you give a satisfactory answer to the above questions I might start considering your opinions on the subject.

Fight me. ヽ(ｏ`皿′ｏ)ﾉ

[May90]

Tell me, o enlightened one, which cultures are you referring to?



This is a meaningless geographical term (particularly in this context) that was conceived in the American war room. During the height of the British Empire the region was known as the Near East.



Who are the Arabs? Where did they come from and who classifies as one?


As it is, your posts reek of that sulfuric smell of pseudointellectualism and they are making me doubt you have read a single page on the subject. If you give a satisfactory answer to the above questions I might start considering your opinions on the subject.

Fight me. ヽ(ｏ`皿′ｏ)ﾉ

You considering my opinions is vital for my survival.

[Voolcan]

Earth is made for mankind not races

[Quien Soy Yo]

You considering my opinions is vital for my survival.

Your body betrays your protestations.

Cracks whip.

[Mayhem]

Please elaborate. Why?

Well because obviously even after years of immigration the vast majority of marriages are between people from the same culture.

I, too, wasn't talking about just one culture in specific, and at no time did I bring religion into play here. As far as I'm concerned, the people from the regions I deem unfitting here would most likely be just the same with any other religion or none. Any ideology would have been mutilated and abused by those that seek power over anything else.
I have no idea how comparable Austria is to Germany, but I reckon that the Austrian immigrants here are easily in the 4 digits at most. The vast, vast majority is from the baltics and arabs/turks (I usually bunch North Africa in with Arabs for simplicity's sake), with notably better integration success for the baltics.

Well then i have no idea what your cultural heritage talking means. There are about 170k austrians living in germany.

Then you're better off than us.

So how likely is it that it´s a problem with immigrants and not a problem with integration? Austria and Germany houses an equal amount of immigrants as a percentage of their population.

And therefore they can't exist? There is a reason for why they aren't widely known, and I stated it: They keep things entirely internal to the sub-societies they exist in. It also is rather dangerous to report about specifics. I had seen a TV report on, I think, 3sat, where they filmed under cover in the ghettoy areas in Berlin. I felt already a bit oppressed simply by absorbing the atmosphere there. They also reportet about a synagoge in the area, where the rabbi urges his attendants to go out of their way to look as non-yewish as possible when in public. It was scary as hell, albeit being a very sober and non-sensationalist kind of report.
And even my small city of 90000 people has an infamous street (a long one) that is firmly in the hands of turks and albanians. There is not a single German shop anymore, and parents tell their kids to stay clear as much as possible, especially at night. Unfortunately, our main train station is right at the border of this area, so it can't be avoided entirely by everyone. (We also have one specific family clan here that basically runs everything in said street, and has a quasi-monopoly on drug trades here. But they are viscous enough to stay untouchable with regards to the greater activities. With practices like having the <16 years olds doing the actual selling and such.) You just need to have a look under the rugs. You'd be disgusted by what you can find there, and how much of it.

Well organized crime isn´t your average criminal. So i wouldn´t use that as an example of how immigrants are bad, but how failed integration leads down very dark paths. I doubt many immigrants come here to become germanies next super criminal.

We have such streets too, i can also walk there at any time of the day without fearing for anything. Naturally shops open up near their customers.

They are dumb enough to be quite public with it, that's the main difference. They're the ones with the FAR greater visibility for two reasons: Media looooooves to report on right wing violence more than anything else in the world, and they WANT to be recognized and heared. The far more severe damage is done from where few are looking close enough, or even know about.

The media loves every report of violence, regardless of right, left, local or foreign. Of course within the media there are groups as well that highlight certain crimes more than others.

I have to admit that you sound increasingly naìve, and I don't mean that as an insult. More like an incentive to look a bit further into things that might not sing your song.

No i just have the numbers and argue based on them and not based on feelings. We don´t have a problem with immigrants that´s significantly bigger than the problem we have with locals. So i see no reason to treat the respectable immigrants as if they have anything to do with the black sheep that crossed the border with them.

[Mayhem]

This passage alone tells me how detached you are from reality. At least the one I experience, which is what matters to me, and is what I base my opinions on. As a software engineer I love numbers naturally, but I also know that they can only reflect reality to a certain degree. If what I experience diverges from what the numbers imply, I can't help but question their validity and/or relevance and/or interpretation.

What? I´m detached from reality because i understand there are different media outlets with different positions on the political spectrum? ok

I do, since there are by far too many that are indifferent (some even passively supportive) to this occuring, and have no interest in eliminating what taints their own image so badly. And that won't change unless it has consequences. The kind that actually impacts them.

That´s naturally occuring. There are a number of germans/austrians who don´t act upon the terrorism the extreme right commit, does that make them extreme right as well? I´m always amused by people who are demanding actions from foreigners that they themselves aren´t willing to do.

[Mayhem]

I'm not talking about your tiny local papers or some online media. I do mean the big ones, national TV and over-regional papers and magazines. You know, those that still matter the most in forming public opinion.

Yeah, you think those aren´t on a certain position on the political spectrum? And you call me naive? We have more than 4 national newspapers that are between center left and center right positioned.

A lot of "naturally occuring" things are moral desaters. That's what makes humans: The ability to stray from "naturally occuring". And more importantly: If my very own acceptance and existence hinged on an issue, rest assured I'd be more than motivated enough to take action. Sure, I disdain far-right extremism as much as the next decent person. But it doesn't impede my personal life one bit, so it really is just a feeling of disgust I could get rid of by taking action. If, on the other hand, I could be denied refuge from a war that threatens my very life, believe me this would look VERY different. Complacency goes away fast when the issues become personal. Or they should, at least. Don't forget to consider the individual situations when comparing and blaming.

You´re aware that these people actually need the knowledge to be able to hold that position? So they need to know that people are biased and therefor the actions of others impact their chances of their refugee status being accepted.

One question, how are refugees/immigrants impeding your personal life?

[Mayhem]

And there is the difference: Germany has no right leaning large media. None. Zip. Nothing. Null. Being centered is often enough considered being too far right, and you're shunned for it. There is no public criticism towards immigration allowed here, even if stated in the most civil and tame manner, in which this should be publicly debated. Say one word = nazi, and hence forth you're basically mute. This actually fosters extreme right actions, because if no one hears your legitimate concerns and just put you off, many people will eventually lash out to make the public listen. I'm not condoning this, but I can somewhat understand where these people come from. (Not all, many are just stupid dumbfucks that repeat after their peers to fit in. But that's not exclusive to these circles.)

You wouldn´t call Die Welt center right?

Yeah, these people come from being uninformed, or eating up every conspiracy shit they can come across because the evil left or the evil eu are destroying everything they (no one can tell you who they mean) have built!

That would be the media's job. They have phones with internet connections. They can inform themselves just fine.

... all of the refugees have phones with internet connections and can just inform themselves. Yeah, ok.

[lolpve]

Nope.


In what conceivable way is Germany "Arab"?

Delusional leftist alert. He's right, white British are a minority in London. There are large parts of Paris and Berlin that are islamic ghettos. Britain is nowhere near as bad as Germany yet, they have areas that are self-policed by muslims. This is why it's urgent we leave the EU before the forces of islamofascism and the allies of fascism can poison the well further.

[Koji2k11]

Earth is made for mankind not races

earth is there for everyone on this planet not just mankind just because we evolved to a point where "we" think we are smarter then everyone does not mean its our planet

on topic religion realy needs either an update or needs to die for good so people can move on, clinging onto past things is not helping anyone, its not like its enough already peple fighting over recources people still fight over some shit that was wrote down thousands of years ago. and im pretty sure germany wont turn arab.... people who come live here sooner or later speak german only

[Mayhem]

The vast majority has, indeed. Again showing that you're pretty out of touch. Also even if only every 50th had one: Do you know how fast infos about where to get better housing or more money spreads across the camps (and families)? They can talk to each other, you know. And it's not that the language lacks words to convey this issue.

You know, just saying it is so isn´t very convincing. Apparently you´re an expert about refugee camp interaction and their belongings, how did you come to that knowledge to be able to judge all of them this easily?

[Voolcan]

it should be an honor to welcome refugees into your country makes you the hero to save their lives.

[Holas]

I participated yesterday in a lecture of Guy Behur - he is an expert on middle east. A lot of his predications came true while being massively critisized when he made them 10s of years early before they happened.

Regarding Germany he said that they have the lowest native fertility in the world, (passing Japan which was first place) so Merkel in order to fix this problem decided to bring refugees so they can work in the factories so that Germany economy will not shrink. It was never to "save" them.
This was extremely naive as those refugees will not really work in those factories so the economy will still shrink but worse as that population will slowly replace the German people.

Some off topic points for those who are interested:

He name Europe as Euroba, a new land formed in our times. He says that the events in Europe taking place now will be learned a thousand of years from now in history books how Europe became arab.

Regarding arabs/muslims in the middle east he said that there is no such thing as a "country". A country is a western phrase we imposed on them. They lived happily for many years in small groups like sunnies/ shia / druz /jews /yezidim ect. ect. then the west came and told them that this part of land is a country like syria or iraq. It was just a blanket because it was not one ethnic group under this blanket and the spring uprising removed this blanket and now the ethnic groups are fighting for the control of the "country". For example Iraq was sunny "country" and now its shia because of the population. Or syria where so many ethnic groups fighting each other.

He also mentioned the US. And how amazing it is they don't understand anything in this region and how each government manage to do all mistakes possible. Including fighting ISIS now.

He said that ISIS will grow even if all its forces in Iraq and Syria will be die. Because the poor population of arab and muslim world have quite shitti lives and would try them out to see if they can make a change.

He said ISIS don't need to follow "Islam" or be true to Islam or whatever because they see themselves as the new Islamic ruler- it means they can INVENT the rules just like the prophets before them did and it will be "kosher".

He said that now that the ethnic blanket is off there will be a huge war between sunnies and shia. Meaning Iran vs. Saudi. Millions will die.

He claim that the main reason for ISIS, Al queda ect. uprising is shia. 84% of muslims are sunnies and so far sunnies were "above" shia in terms of power. Mostly because US and SA had a pact - SA give oil, and USA give protection. Now that the US don't need oil (becoming largest oil export) and even worse gave power to Iran, the shia is now "on top" and these groups want to regain their sunni control over shia.

He also said no one really cares about Israel now in the middle east. Only western eyes see Israel as the "middle east" while in truth its insignificant both in lands, in population and in its effect on the region.

[Mayhem]

I'm sorry that I'm unable to present exact metrics here. But I doubt they even exist. And it is quite "forumy" to always go on about asking for numbers, quotes and sources. Apparantly a person is no longer allowed to combine personal experience with what diverse media report and form an opinion based on "the world around him". Let alone state it. If you want to be that person, then I guess you won. Happy now?

Well if you judge thousands of people based solely on personal experience and opinion based on the world around you then that´s fair, just don´t present it in a way that looks like you actually know what´s going on in refugee camps, unless you are working or being at one regularly. Though even then you wouldn´t be able to talk about all refugees but the ones in that certain camp.