Arms Legion Discussion

[Artunias]

Not sure how you can eliminate heroic charging but leave in the rage generation on every charge.

You don't rage starve the spec? lol. MoP arms didn't heroic charge, nor did any version of arms before that because the spec flowed and the rage model worked without trying to use the gimmick of heroic charge just so you could keep hitting buttons.

[Nightstalker]

Rage management in MoP - mainly because of off GCD spending - was a lot different.

[Caargon]

Not sure how you can eliminate heroic charging but leave in the rage generation on every charge.

By giving arms at the baseline enough rage to sustain the rotation without starving. Surpluss rage from heroic charging is useless when we can't spend it any faster than we already are.

[Nightstalker]

The MS ramp-up buff is a good idea for GCD capped rage spending. But the alternatives don't impact the rage management with the same effect.

[Warriorsarri]

But will they allow this or break it again? If they allow it, why not just make charge work in melee range like it did back in BWD on Chimaeron if the game play is going to be charge for rage?

The reason it worked back then was that range to the boss was calculated based on the center of the hit box, where as melee range was counted from the very edge. This meant that if the hitbox was big enough abilitys such as Charge or Hunterspells (when they had a min-range) could be used, while being in melee range. Back then it was also not the rage we wanted, it was the 25(50?)% buff to Crit chance on MS/Exe after each charge, which was a tad OP, it was the mechanic that catapulted Arms from one of the weakest, to the by far strongest spec during that patch.

When it comes to ways to make Heroic-Charge a non-issue I see a few potential ways:

First one is the way it was treated in WoD. It was not a good fix, but it did prevent us from abusing it on most fights. Could work if they added a mechanic that said if you where away from the target for X seconds it reset, making X long enough to never be worth it on a normal fight.

Second obvious one is for Arms to be close to global caped without needing the extra rage from the charges. This can be fixed in a few ways if they'd want to by simple tuning the rage cost, or the rage generation numbers a tad. If this was done Heroic-Charge would never be used above 20%, but in the execute rotation it would always be an increase, simply due to the "spend extra rage for extra damage" mechanic on Execute.

The last simple option I see is to remove the rage generation all together from Charge, and either fix it so that we wouldn't be rage starved for the first global(s), or to give us some other source of rage (think Battle Shout pre-WoD). This would solve the issue all together, and even tho it would feel like a major change, once we get used to it I doubt it would be an issue.

All that said there are several ways that I didn't list that could potentially fix this issue, but it's in my opinion that as long as it's not a major gain to use Heroic-Charge that it's not an issue. Currently it's a fair gain, but it's less than a 1% gain.

[Maltore]

You don't rage starve the spec? lol. MoP arms didn't heroic charge, nor did any version of arms before that because the spec flowed and the rage model worked without trying to use the gimmick of heroic charge just so you could keep hitting buttons.

Yeah, I suppose. I didn't play in MoP, but I thought I saw people saying they'd heroic charge some during MoP? How was rage management better then? Was it mostly due to MS generating rage?

I guess it also comes down to the design goal of Arms. Should it be a GCD-capped spec, and have the passive rage income to support that? Then does rage even matter?

[Warriorsarri]

The way it worked in MoP (not counting T14) was that the normal rotation was rage positive, and then when we had CS up we burned of some of that excess rage with Heroic strike. We where also global capped meaning we would lose more than we'd gain by using Heroic-Charge.

[Secondwind]

I still say the way to fix Heroic Charging is to make Charge provide rage based on time since your last auto attack swing.

What I mean is, you attack an enemy every 3 seconds, and your attack provides 20 rage. You land an attack, and then your enemy gets out of melee somehow. If you charge 5 seconds later, then you gain 33 rage (20/3*5). However if you charge back in immediately, you are most likely only getting 1-2 rage (a fraction of a seconds worth). Put a cap on it so a charge at the start of a fight isn't a full rage bar (40-50 rage cap let's say)

This lets Charge rage gain still act as a solid opener and helps maintain rage levels while unable to reach a target (both in PVP and in PVE encounters where you're forced to run away from a boss or whatever for a period of time but need to charge that same target multiple times in a row), but shuts down Heroic Charging hard.

[Deleted]

That´s exactly the solution to all the current problems and it´s so obvious. I don´t get how Blizz cannot see this.
However, 1% would be too much. Something between 0.6% and 0.8% is more balanced, since with the current mastery around 60% CS uptime should be the goal .

Tactician You have a 0.65% chance per Rage spent to reset the remaining cooldown on Colossus Smash and Mortal Strike. Warrior - Arms Spec.

It´s actually in. This solves so many problems

[broflmao]

Exploit the Weakness (Rank 6) Tactitian's chance to trigger is increased as if you spent 60% more Rage. hot damn

[Haveth]

They actually did it, the madmen!

[Wazooty]

That appears to solve my biggest gripe going live.

Praise Odyn.

Does it not specify which abilities trigger it anymore? All abilities are fair game?

[Secondwind]

So that's a small change with big implications. I guess they finally got tired of us wanting to use Slam over everything else for cs procs.

[Shadow Fox]

Does it not specify which abilities trigger it anymore? All abilities are fair game?

Old: Mortal Strike, Slam, Whirlwind, and Execute have a 10% chance per target hit to reset the remaining cooldown on Colossus Smash and Mortal Strike.

New: You have a 0.65% chance per Rage spent to reset the remaining cooldown on Colossus Smash and Mortal Strike.

[Deleted]

Exploit the Weakness (Rank 6) Tactitian's chance to trigger is increased as if you spent 60% more Rage. hot damn

That seems a bit too strong though. I can see this being nerfed to 5-8% per rank.

[Secondwind]

That seems a bit too strong though. I can see this being nerfed to 5-8% per rank.

well the base is .65%. So at 3 ranks (the normal max) you're getting .845% per rage (12.6% chance with Slam, 16.9% per MS). With 6 ranks (requiring 3 relics) you're getting 1.04% per rage (15.6% with Slam, 20.8% with MS). So it's overall about a 3-4% increase per ability going from normal to being geared specifically into it, which isn't unreasonable. And honestly we'll probably feel pretty slow/weak until getting the first 3 ranks.


As an aside I am curious if Dauntless nerfs our CS proc rate. Yes we'll hit more abilities overall, and it should balance out, but I can't imagine it feeling particularly good.

[Shadow Fox]

well the base is .65%. So at 3 ranks (the normal max) you're getting .845% per rage (12.6% chance with Slam, 16.9% per MS). With 6 ranks (requiring 3 relics) you're getting 1.04% per rage (15.6% with Slam, 20.8% with MS). So it's overall about a 3-4% increase per ability going from normal to being geared specifically into it, which isn't unreasonable. And honestly we'll probably feel pretty slow/weak until getting the first 3 ranks.


As an aside I am curious if Dauntless nerfs our CS proc rate. Yes we'll hit more abilities overall, and it should balance out, but I can't imagine it feeling particularly good.

You think this would change the stat priority any?

[Ryxxi]

The new changes look good, 20.5% chance to reset with MS and rank 6 tactician. So is dauntless horrible now and focused rage a bit better?

[Haveth]

The new changes look good, 20.5% chance to reset with MS and rank 6 tactician. So is dauntless horrible now and focused rage a bit better?

Realistically you'd never hit rank 6 tactician any time soon, maybe next raid tier, but that's a big maybe if they decide to increase the + ranks on relics.

Depends on how they decide to treat rage percentage decreases, and if they apply after or before tactician. Dauntless might be the AoE choice since WW costs a decent amount of rage. I suppose the drawback to the new rage system is that CS reset chance no longer scales with targets hit (Whirlwind, Sweeping Strikes) but now that the overall chance to proc tactician increased due to effectsing all rage spenders, so it's not that big of a deal.

Focused rage just depends on how much rage you're spending compared to building, we might be overwhelmed with rage later in the tier and want to bleed off more - off the GCD. Still a pretty meh talent I think.

[Deleted]

Let us all pray, this change will make it to the live...