Legion - Subtlety discussion

[panzaghor]

What do you guys on the beta think about the current talents of the spec? i've been looking into them this morning and it looks like it will be hard to choose between some of them

[kalaratic]

What do you guys on the beta think about the current talents of the spec? i've been looking into them this morning and it looks like it will be hard to choose between some of them

as much as ppl like to bash them, i really love our lvl 30/45 talents as they all create distinct playstyles that focus on different things

MoS, nightstalker, DS, DfA = really big dick finishers, like ridiculously huge ones

Subterfuge and vigor = 5 shadowstrikes per shadow dance at full energy. this means akaari (when she is actually fixed) is going to put out huge damage

and then anticipation is there to play the spec the most "optimally" since u have a huge buffer for shadow techniques not to fuck u over with the cp

[Deleted]

I also like the 30 row, and I would have no problem with the 45 row if the spec wasn't overflowing with CPs. Coming from someone who doesn't have the beta, Deeper Stratagem seems a lot of fun, but also it seems to me there's not enough energy to make it totally worthwhile, and the extra CP still doesn't prevent you from overcapping resulting in, sometimes, needing to cast 5CP finishers anyway. Anticipation still feels like a must given the way the spec procs CPs from every source possible, and Vigor also seems like a band-aid.

15 row is still atrocious. Master of Subtlety, which was pruned into a talent tree, should be baseline for every possible motive, Weaponmaster is ridiculous and Gloomblade is a talent that fixes an issue that shouldn't exist in the first place.

75 row is also atrocious simply because all talents in this row offer barely any use in a PvE environment. This row belongs in the PvP talent tree, making it essentially a waste of talent choice in PvE.

In the 90 row, Alacrity is awful. Premeditation and Enveloping Shadows are good talents but clash heavily with Shadow Techniques, causing the spec's CP overflow issue. I firmly believe Shadow Techniques should instead proc around 5 Energy, killing two birds with one stone - helps to solve energy issues and makes both talents much more meaningful.

The 100 row is fine, I suppose. Marked for Death also seems to clash with the CP issues but I can't be sure as I haven't played it.

[Deleted]

They should put gloomblade baseline and a boosted backstab as a talent, so it's actually a decision to play that way.

[Valentyn]

They should put gloomblade baseline and a boosted backstab as a talent, so it's actually a decision to play that way.

HEY NOW! Get out of here with that common sense! Blizzard does not welcome it :P

[kalaratic]

so it turns out that relentless strikes will never give u 40 energy when u use a finisher above 60 energy (no vigor) because the game thinks u would get capped out. so for anyone who is trying to pool energy before hitting a finisher because of SD charges, you've basically been fucking urself this whole time LOL

[Deleted]

so it turns out that relentless strikes will never give u 40 energy when u use a finisher above 60 energy (no vigor) because the game thinks u would get capped out. so for anyone who is trying to pool energy before hitting a finisher because of SD charges, you've basically been fucking urself this whole time LOL

What? Is that a recent change or a bug?

What's next, they won't let you SoD before pandemic time? Or let you cast <5CP finishers?

[kalaratic]

What? Is that a recent change or a bug?

What's next, they won't let you SoD before pandemic time? Or let you cast <5CP finishers?

i'm hoping it's a bug, i threw it up on my bug report thread on the forums. it's pretty crazy how flawed this spec is at a fundamental level

[overdose]

so it turns out that relentless strikes will never give u 40 energy when u use a finisher above 60 energy (no vigor) because the game thinks u would get capped out. so for anyone who is trying to pool energy before hitting a finisher because of SD charges, you've basically been fucking urself this whole time LOL

I haven't played since first sub build, but the 60 energy would bug out on restealths or passive shadow dance at the time if it caused you to over cap. I reported this with the ingame report system, and in the alpha forums as soon as I discovered the bug. If this is the same bug and it has persisted for months, then I'm speechless.

Edit: I found my post, it was on January, 2016. Probably a diff bug, because I reported, "Relentless Strikes energy refund caps at 115 energy. Ive tested it at 80, 90, 100 and 110 energy."

[Skayaq]

I haven't played since first sub build, but the 60 energy would bug out on restealths or passive shadow dance at the time if it caused you to over cap. I reported this with the ingame report system, and in the alpha forums as soon as I discovered the bug. If this is the same bug and it has persisted for months, then I'm speechless.

I'm not even surprised at anymore.

[Deleted]

The real issue here is that this may not be a bug.

[kalaratic]

The real issue here is that this may not be a bug.

i'll throw it up on the theorycrafting thread. literally the only way a blue will talk about subtlety

[Symphonic]

What do you guys think of Sprint being part of a PvE Sub Rogue DPS cooldown? From the artifact, activating sprint and not taking damage for 3 seconds results in vanishing without activating the vanish cooldown.

[Deleted]

What do you guys think of Sprint being part of a PvE Sub Rogue DPS cooldown? From the artifact, activating sprint and not taking damage for 3 seconds results in vanishing without activating the vanish cooldown.

Bad. It essentially removes the original functionality of Sprint and turns it into Preparation, needlessly.

[Skayaq]

Not a big fan of having to use movement abilities to increase dps. I prefer to have them available when, you know, I have to move.

[Mrkew]

Can you remove the poll now that shadowstep is back?
I won't hide that my true motive is to get rid of the horrible grammatical mistake in it.

[kalaratic]

What do you guys think of Sprint being part of a PvE Sub Rogue DPS cooldown? From the artifact, activating sprint and not taking damage for 3 seconds results in vanishing without activating the vanish cooldown.

from my experience i can tell u it's unintuitive as fuck that u get punished for instinctively hitting sprint when u need to move someone quick. at least from dungeons, it's also really fucking hard not to take damage for 3 seconds. it sounds short on paper but when ur just staring at that buff it feels like forever. i'm guessing the most play it will see is timing the buff on the pre-pull so it pops up right after u hit ur first shadowstrike (no subterfuge)

[elfporn]

What do you guys think of Sprint being part of a PvE Sub Rogue DPS cooldown? From the artifact, activating sprint and not taking damage for 3 seconds results in vanishing without activating the vanish cooldown.

It's a skill-shot. We have shadowstep, shadowstrike, and sprint for movement abilities. Using sprint as a dps cd shouldn't be too game-breaking

[kalaratic]

i'll throw it up on the theorycrafting thread. literally the only way a blue will talk about subtlety

well celestalon is being a smart ass so i'm going to assume relentless strikes is bugged atm and it's not intended. like he hasn't opened his mouth in 3 fucking months about the spec and he's all "woah guys don't post this really obvious bug here". how the fuck am i suppose to know what's intended or not when bugs with this spec have existed for months with nothing done. i'm pretty sure we're the only spec in the game with a major artifact trait that doesn't even show in the combat log.

[Neba]

Bad. It essentially removes the original functionality of Sprint and turns it into Preparation, needlessly.

Only got around to reading about rogue artifact talents today and this really jumped out at me as being shitty for the reason you describe.

Hoping they change it as you just know they're going to balance sub rogue dps around using ALL the tools you have available.
Having both Vanish and Sprint essentially locked out from use most times when shit goes down doesn't feel good.