[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Nihiel]

I still think its in an early stage, and you cant or should rely on any given information atm. ofc u can adapt and expand ur knowledge about whats current, but in the end of the day, shamans wont see the light and be top notch dps, as mages, and shadow priests, and warlocks

Sorry to burst your bubble, but shadow has had its prime. Severely overtuned on the Alpha, leading to three sequential nerfs. Tuning is not done, of course, but please - Enhancement was in the top 3 of dps during Alpha raid testing too, and I don't recall as many nerfs to enh and shadow has received. Off-topic, but it irks me when people spread false information.

[Kaljurei]

Its the button you're hitting most often and 300% spell power + mastery scaling is a fairly hard hit relative to anything thats not SS. I dont have Doomvortex on my Shaman and, as far as I can tell, its not even worth casting LL unless BF is on CD (which is less than 6secs thanks to flurry) or I'm cleaving-- even if Im maxed out on Malestrom BF takes priority because it hits way harder. And if Vortex's tooltip damage is accurate it wouldnt change anything even if i did have it.

So the problem literally is that they overbuffed BF and for that point Rockbiter because they do AP damage versus LL which does Offhand Weapon damage, not to mention extra Maelstrom and the damage proc on BF.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry to burst your bubble, but shadow has had its prime. Severely overtuned on the Alpha, leading to three sequential nerfs. Tuning is not done, of course, but please - Enhancement was in the top 3 of dps during Alpha raid testing too, and I don't recall as many nerfs to enh and shadow has received. Off-topic, but it irks me when people spread false information.

Timeline has no consequence on superiority. Just because Enhancement hasn't been nerfed yet doesn't mean it won't be nerfed. Maybe they just overlooked it or they're waiting until they have some more data.

[Coffeh]

Boulderfist is going to be hit with the nerf bat, i know that much.

Or they could take the route of buffing the other two talents in that tier to make them competitive. Or is it just that enhancement isn't allowed to be a near top-level dps spec?

[nazrakin]

So the problem literally is that they overbuffed BF and for that point Rockbiter because they do AP damage versus LL which does Offhand Weapon damage, not to mention extra Maelstrom and the damage proc on BF.

Rockbiter is actually fine since it does less damage in a single GCD vs LL. BF out performs LL in that same GCD, which is why LL takes a back seat.

Also, the fact that it benefits from flurry completely throws off the balance it has with Rockbiter. I only have 24% haste and its already down to 4.8sec CD. So in the time someone burns 4 GCDs on RB to gain a total of 52MP and deal 608% sp damage. I could squeeze in 3 BFs which nets me 75MP and has dealt 900% sp in dmg and Ive got an extra gcd to squeeze in something else. Granted, there is an opportunity cost in taking BF by giving up hot hands and windsong... but I wonder whats the 10% crit and 5% dmg for?

[wordup]

Or they could take the route of buffing the other two talents in that tier to make them competitive. Or is it just that enhancement isn't allowed to be a near top-level dps spec?

I have a lot of doubts about buffing those two up to the heights of Boulderfist, right now Boulderfist is arguably the biggest increase in the entire tree (rivaled possibly by Landslide), having a tier that absolutely dwarfs any other decision you make seems like the wrong way to go about talents. There's something unusual about having a tier that has such a profound impact rather than having each tier be respectable choices but not be the decider on whether you perform or not.

[Sarkol]

Haven't paid too much attention for the last few months, but Boulderfist, to my knowledge, isn't doing what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to offer a bit of downtime, in relation to spamming Rockbiter. From previous posts and tests though, it offers very little downtime. If that still holds, it's not living up to it's intent, and needs to be toned down to where it makes sense.

[Gungnir]

Haven't paid too much attention for the last few months, but Boulderfist, to my knowledge, isn't doing what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to offer a bit of downtime, in relation to spamming Rockbiter. From previous posts and tests though, it offers very little downtime. If that still holds, it's not living up to it's intent, and needs to be toned down to where it makes sense.

Definitely overtuned when it comes to damage.
I'm currently only 105 on the beta and it's critting for a bit over 100k, which is leagues above LL.

[Darleth]

Haven't paid too much attention for the last few months, but Boulderfist, to my knowledge, isn't doing what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to offer a bit of downtime, in relation to spamming Rockbiter. From previous posts and tests though, it offers very little downtime. If that still holds, it's not living up to it's intent, and needs to be toned down to where it makes sense.

It has a 6 second cooldown, that gets decreased by flurry. The problem with that is, whenever you have CD on BF, you're just spamming your abilities that require maelstrom anyways, or rebuffing FT/FB, meaning until you have no maelstrom power, at least one charge is back up again.

BF needs a scaling nerf badly. It basically scales 2 times, one is a flat 300% AP and another is nature damage via mastery. If they're going to nerf BF, it'll be the 300% ap scaling, since our mastery actually works fine with everything else. Its also really stupid, that it basically scales with itself thanks to giving us the 20% AP via landslide.

Definitely overtuned when it comes to damage.
I'm currently only 105 on the beta and it's critting for a bit over 100k, which is leagues above LL.

On level 110 it sometimes hits well around 200k. Its completely absurd.

[garonne]

they could also just increase the cd from 6 secs to 8 or 10 sec or both cd increase and damage increase.

[Deleted]

they could also just increase the cd from 6 secs to 8 or 10 sec or both cd increase and damage increase.

I think this is not the right way since it would make us maelstrom starved quite often - I don't have numbers on this (maybe Wordup will) but even now I find 1-2 GCDs per minute when I just reapply flametongue in advance or just heal myself etc...

[Darleth]

they could also just increase the cd from 6 secs to 8 or 10 sec or both cd increase and damage increase.

Absolutely the wrong way. Nerfing the overall damage gain from it is enough and much needed.
Maelstrom starving shouldn't happen though.. nerfing the CD would do that, unless we have a ton of haste.

[garonne]

i dont see how you'd be starved. the idea of the talent is to have some form of breathing room(not be gcd capped), the current cd makes the playstyle still too spammy and it gets reduced with haste, 10 secs MAY be too much, but moving it to 7/8 secs when you have 2 charges would be a sufficient nerf.

[Darleth]

i dont see how you'd be starved. the idea of the talent is to have some form of breathing room(not be gcd capped), the current cd makes the playstyle still too spammy and it gets reduced with haste, 10 secs MAY be too much, but moving it to 7/8 secs when you have 2 charges would be a sufficient nerf.

Wouldn't change the fact that it gets us maelstrom starved. 7 1/2 seconds (counting haste in), compared to 5 1/2 seconds is a lot for JUST 25 Maelstrom. The other thing why we get a ton of maelstrom is auto attacks and wf-proccs. There are sometimes situations where you have no luckproc and just pool maelstrom, even when playing with BF. It doesn't happen too often, but it is a possibility. With 7 or 8 seconds on BF, we'd be pooling way too often.

Edit: also, it wouldn't really fix the talents main problem: it dealing too much damage. The other 2 choices would still be pretty much "meh" compared to boulderfist.

[Sarkol]

The whole point of Boulderfist is literally to be somewhat Maelstrom starved, or to get a lot more, in wider lengths of time, and pressing less buttons. Damage should be balanced exactly the same as Rockbiter spam. That's the intent of the talent. I assume a cooldown increase would be fine. Seems entirely too low right now. Cooldown increase actually seems the only logical change considering what the talent is for..

[Darleth]

The whole point of Boulderfist is literally to be somewhat Maelstrom starved, or to get a lot more, in wider lengths of time, and pressing less buttons. Damage should be balanced exactly the same as Rockbiter spam. That's the intent of the talent. I assume a cooldown increase would be fine. Seems entirely too low right now. Cooldown increase actually seems the only logical change considering what the talent is for..

People would still pick it though, because it deals the highest amount of damage and gives more "stats" in terms of dps. You guys seem to forget that it also increases Critical Strike Rating (even if its a bad stat for us, its still a dps gain) and 5% overall damage increase. Even with a higher CD, you'd still pick it over any other talent in the row.

[garonne]

either option isnt mutually exclusive, so both can happen.

[Deleted]

Boulderfist is just totally overpowered comparing with the two others talent.

10% crit+ 5% damage + enormous maelstrom regen and big damage. Boulderfist needs to be hardnerf: Give less maelstrom and have more CD and the two others talent need to be buff.

Enhance is too much efficient in the current build, pvp and pve

[wordup]

For anyone interested, I've recently posted in public the spreadsheet I've been using to gauge some of the things I've been looking at which you can find here:

Spreadsheet Link!

It obviously assumes averages as is stated in the FAQ and as such some things are weighted higher/lower than they realistically are, but gives a general look at the spec, stat weights, etc.

[Deleted]

to me its not a question if we get nerfed, it's when and if they will do it properly. I don't need to be top3 dps, but I also do not want them to nerf us into total mediocrity.

[Coffeh]

to me its not a question if we get nerfed, it's when and if they will do it properly. I don't need to be top3 dps, but I also do not want them to nerf us into total mediocrity.

I just don't understand people who say the spec has to get nerfed. Why? Because it's near the top in dps? Is enhancement just not allowed to do great dps? Where does it say that?

It almost feels like a lot of shaman players are so used to being so mediocre that they actually fear being a top tier spec. Like...suddenly you're expected to perform, and that scares people.