No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Bun-Bun]

EDIT: Since you've added on to your post I'll add a little more to mine. I like meaningful as well. Which is why I like things that feel like progression. Progression by its nature though is a gate and realistically there will never be enough do-once things in the game. That's why reward is important and how repetitive content is implemented. We don't disagree there. We'll have to see if Legion strikes a better balance with the world quests. From what I've seen they may be on to something but really, there's no way to know until you've done all of that for a while.

And you are correct in that having things to do for me is not necessarily the same as more content although of course it could be. I'm not a fan of Warlords and at this point I'm not looking back at it. It was a mistake on many levels and my hope is that the course corrections in Legion for non-raiding end game will be a better mix all around.

Yes progress by nature is gated. And you have to strike a balance that keeps people interested and enough people playing at the various levels that there are other people to group up with to do the tasks you want to do.

Draenor lacked in choice, in lore and reasons to have friends in game.

Lots of people hate questing, and thus I knew lots of people who never finished the netherstorm quests in BC. I used those quests to help pay most of epic flight: That's choice. In Draenor and Legion I have to do a bunch of stuff I don't want do in order to be able to fly to... what? I have already done it all. And why do the gates exist? What is the lore behind them? That's why I call pathfinder an artificial gate.

[MoanaLisa]

Lots of people hate questing, and thus I knew lots of people who never finished the netherstorm quests in BC. I used those quests to help pay most of epic flight: That's choice. In Draenor and Legion I have to do a bunch of stuff I don't want do in order to be able to fly to... what? I have already done it all.

I have a different view of flying than you. It's not a critical piece of 'getting things done' for me. But I will get flying simply because I like to bird up and fly around over the countryside and see the sights. Sometimes I'll have a purpose in mind, often not. If it's just getting stuff done, flight paths will usually take care of the bulk of it and I can check mail or something in the meanwhile. To each his own. Flying for me is a simple pleasure. It hardly even qualifies as game play. I'm not that in a hurry.

[Bun-Bun]

I have a different view of flying than you. It's not a critical piece of 'getting things done' for me. But I will get flying simply because I like to bird up and fly around over the countryside and see the sights. Sometimes I'll have a purpose in mind, often not. If it's just getting stuff done, flight paths will usually take care of the bulk of it and I can check mail or something in the meanwhile. To each his own. Flying for me is a simple pleasure. It hardly even qualifies as game play. I'm not that in a hurry.

And to me its a big part of my gameplay. Flight/collecting flying mounts was my biggest drive in BC/Wrath. It is what kept me interested and what most of my time went into doing. Raiding and stuff was just something to do with friends (and raiding unlocked some flying mounts I wanted). But that's just it, it comes back down each person enjoys things differently and BC and Wrath had the choice available for people to play the game the way they wanted.

So it was a slap in the face to not be able to use all the flying mounts I had collected nor fly after everything I had put previously into the game. It's why I quit and its why I won't be buying Legion. I came back to get pathfinding and I hated every second of the Tanaan rep grind to get it. Thinking back on it, I regret doing it as it wasn't worth the effort as I don't even play now anyways.

Too much choice is a bad thing. Too little choice is worse IMO.

EDIT:

I find it incredibly amusing that people complained about Mists being a chore and they gave garrisons in return, the biggest chore of all.

[SirCowdog]

EDIT: Since you've added on to your post I'll add a little more to mine. I like meaningful as well. Which is why I like things that feel like progression. Progression by its nature though is a gate and realistically there will never be enough do-once things in the game. That's why reward is important and how repetitive content is implemented. We don't disagree there. We'll have to see if Legion strikes a better balance with the world quests. From what I've seen they may be on to something but really, there's no way to know until you've done all of that for a while.

The main difference I see is between having a clear goal that you can see, plan, and work towards knowing full well what it entails, and being asked to grind out some goals with no clear end in sight, nor even any idea when your desired reward(s) will be available.

That's the problem with the current form of pathfinder in Legion: The reward doesn't match the effort. Not anywhere even close to being reasonable.

[Connll]

That's the problem with the current form of pathfinder in Legion: The reward doesn't match the effort. Not anywhere even close to being reasonable.

And thats assuming that there WILL be a reward in the end; Its perfectly in the realm of possibilities for we to be, once again, surprised by a "no-flight-ever-again" announcement in an obscure site....

[Deleted]

I find it amusing how when it supports your argument, suddenly Blizzard listens to player feedback. But when people say Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback about wanting flight, the general response is "Blizzard doesn't listen because you're just a vocal minority".

Some people just need more time that Blizz does not and has never (in WoW) listen to what people want. Especially not the feedback of the casula crowd since they have NEVER collect any player feedback in an appropriate way. Blizz even refused to do that with strange excuses. There is only ONE way to collect proper feedback: IN GAME, like a window in the startscreen with a few multiple choice questions. Any other way (forums, external forums, surveys on external sites) are pretty much worthless. Simply because their main audience isn't there. On the Forums you have 10-15% MAX of the players reading and writing, and those are the more dedicated ones.... not the casualcrowd they would like to put the blame on.

So IF Blizz changed anything in game it would be based on people like Masterhamster.... not the average casual player that doesn't go to forums. But i guess people like to believe the myth that "whiners on forums" are responsible for changes in game......

[Deleted]

[SNIP] I don't consider flying to be creative or outsmarting the game because it's an I-win button for any situation, including having to walk for more than a few seconds. I prefer to look and decide what I should do based on the situation and what class I'm playing - like you say some classes allow you to drop aggro, some are tanky and can take the hits, some you have to decide if it's worth the risk of losing time or (depending on how many mobs you pull) your life. Flight is fine if you want to switch off your brain and do some content whilst watching TV but I prefer content to be designed around more involvement.

I surely would like something like that, but there's a catch: Content with involvement can be done exactly once. I got Tarecgosa on my main, farmed the Vala'nyr mace on my priest, now I work on Fangs of the Father on my rogue (solo, because I was not raiding much in Cata, and did not had a decent Ulduar group back then), and I did earn the title and green fire on my Warlock in MoP. I got Gara on my hunter and also the green fel wolf after beating the special rare in Tanaan. I usually do every meaningful content out there, completing explorer and loremaster achievements etc. I also farmed most repuations to exalted, I collect patterns for all my crafters, pets and mounts, and dabble in pet battles. This is all meaningful content to me, even farming mobs for rare drops or materials. I did all flying content out there, all Netherwing races, and got Exalted with the Cloud Serpent faction on 23 of my characters, before they made the riding skill for these mounts obsolete.

But having to engage mobs which are not interesting and not engaging besides blocking my path to my intended objective is annoying, especially if you are doing it for the n-th time. It's okay if you have to fight your way through while leveling. But afterwards, I want to switch my attention to other things, because I already did my share of killing random things, more than enough. I want to spend my time in a way which I control, not Blizzard. I am already controlled by my job, commuting by public transportation, and many other things. I don't like being robbed of freedom in my favorite game for some obscure reasons which I just cannot believe, because we have had 4 expansions with flight and everything had worked out fine.

I don't understand why they are so crazy about this, anyway. If people claim that flying destroys their gaming experience - then it's their fault. I would never do something which I don't enjoy. This is why I don't pvp even if it provides me gear which is probably better than things I get in dungeons and LFR. I hate PvP, and I restrain from doing it, and I don't complain that I don't get PvP gear, because it's my choice. I also don't complain that Blizzard should remove PvP, because I know that many people enjoy it, and I don't want that they suffer because of my negative attitude to PvP. I only wish there would be a game mechanic which separates PvP and PvE balancing, so they could tune things separately.

We have had something similar for flying and no-flying before. We have had flight in the main zones, which are there for leveling. And afterwards, when additional zones were added, they were without flight for the endgame. Nobody who loved flight complained about no-flying on Isle of Quel'Danas, in the Firelands, on the Isle of Giants, Isle of Thunder or Timeless Isle. This was a working model where both groups have had their type of play supported. Now, Blizzard deliberately works against one of these types, and this is not fair.

Edit: Typos

[SirCowdog]

I surely would like something like that, but there's a catch: Content with involvement can be done exactly once. I got Tarecgosa on my main, farmed the Vala'nyr mace on my priest, now I work on Fangs of the Father on my rogue (solo, because I was not raiding much in Cata, and did not had a decent Ulduar group back then), and I did earn the title and green fire on my Warlock in MoP. I got Gara on my hunter and also the green fel wolf after beating the special rare in Tanaan. I usually do every meaningful content out there, completing explorer and loremaster achievements etc. I also farmed most repuations to exalted, I collect patterns for all my crafters, pets and mounts, and dabble in pet battles. This is all meaningful content to me, even farmin mobs for rare drops or materials. I did all flying content out there, all Netherwing races, and got Exalted with the Cloud Serpent faction on 23 of my characters, before they made the riding skill for these mounts obsolete.

But having to engage mobs which are not interesting and not engaging besides blocking my path to my intended objective is annoying, especially if you are doing it for the n-th time. It's okay if you have to fight your way through while leveling. But afterwards, I want to switch my attention to other things, because I already did my share of killing random things, more than enough. I want to spend my time in a way which I control, not Blizzard. I am already controlled by my job, commuting by public transportation, and many other things. I don't like being robbed of freedom in my favorite game for some obscure reasons which I just cannot believe, because we have had 4 expansions with flight and everything had worked out fine.

I don't understand why they are so crazy about this, anyway. If people claim that flying destroys their gaming experience - then it's their fault. I would never do something which I don't enjoy. This is why I don't pvp even if it provides me gear which is probably better than things I get in dungeons and LFR. I hate PvP, and I restrain from doing it, and I don't complain that I don't get PvP gear, because it's my choice. I also don't complain that Blizzard should remove PvP, because I know that many people enjoy it, and I don't want that they suffer because of my negative attitute to PvP. I only wish there would be a game mechanic which separates PvP and PvE balancing, so they could tune things separately.

We have had something similar for flying and no-flying before. We have had flight in the main zones, which are there for leveling. And afterwards, when additional zones were added, they were without flight for the endgame. Nobody who loved flight complained about no-flying on Isle of Quel'Danas, in the Firelands, on the Isle of Giants, Isle of Thunder or Timeless Isle. This was a working model where both groups have had their type of play supported. Now, Blizzard deliberately works agains one of these types, and this is not fair.

I've been trying to get this message across for near on 250 pages now. The simple fact is that there are people out there that just can't handle the fact that OTHER people might want to enjoy the game differently than they do.

As for Blizzard, I don't think they give two jackal assess what the players think or want. It's probably gonna take another spike in sub cancellations to get them to change pace.

[Mafic]

Your wall of text is moot as you entirely missed the point of what I said.

In BC and Wrath there was content, things to do with purpose in doing them. Yes it was gated but in an appropriate manner that did not take months to achieve. Netherdrakes were a side optional area and rep to do with its own story.

In WoD and what they are proposing in Legion thus far is artificially gated content with boring grinds and no purpose. Going to my garrison to get a rotating quest is dry and the gated mechanics are much more extreme than before. In BC and Wrath I never ran out of things to do yet I never felt obligated to do them. In WoD the gated mechanics are obligated yet lack in substance and are so extreme in time required that I just gave up and quit. Its not fun anymore.


EDIT:

Also, I never once complained during BC/Wrath/MoP (I skipped cata) that things took too long or felt gated. There was so many things to do and in many cases multiple ways of getting there that it was interesting and fun. Flight for example was bought with gold. How you got that gold is up to you. I just finished all the quests in netherstorm at lvl cap and did some mining and I had epic flight. The player had choice. WoD lacks choice and lore.

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Ok, so you are saying that you are OK with prolonging the little content that is already there for the same price?

I ask because you said your preference is having things to do, which I assumed to mean more things as in more content, but after this response I take it that was incorrect. But I am having trouble believing that you would be happy doing the same thing for longer just to have something to do when you could always just play another game or do something other than game.

I want meaningful things to do. I don't want to go to the same ludonarrative dissonance infected mission table every day to do the same senseless tasks. I want tasks that are pertinent to the area/story and the ability to change it up. I rarely picked a faction and focused on it till exalted in BC or Wrath, I would switch it up so that it didn't get boring. Nor was it gated to the extreme that it took over a month to do plus there were multiple paths to take (like wearing tabards in dungeons) to get to the goal.

And I definitely don't want to do it all to have nothing to fly to.

Yes there was gating before and gating is inherent to MMO design philosophy: WoD took it to a unfun extreme.

Good post.

It is simply semantics to hide behind the false canard that gating content like what they did in WoD and what they propose in Legion is the same as previous expansions. Previous expansions offered more choices to reach your goals (badge system, gold for flying unlock, etc).

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The main difference I see is between having a clear goal that you can see, plan, and work towards knowing full well what it entails, and being asked to grind out some goals with no clear end in sight, nor even any idea when your desired reward(s) will be available.

That's the problem with the current form of pathfinder in Legion: The reward doesn't match the effort. Not anywhere even close to being reasonable.

Blizzard is desperate to have players playing longer. That is why they will not reveal when flight will be available..they will try to stretch out artifact for as long as possible and the badge system was replaced with RNG boxes.

These are moves an Asian MMO make to retain players so they log more playing time. Legion is simply a copy and paste of WoD ideas that failed already....only thing left is watching the slow motion train wreck happen.

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And thats assuming that there WILL be a reward in the end; Its perfectly in the realm of possibilities for we to be, once again, surprised by a "no-flight-ever-again" announcement in an obscure site....

Yup. And Blizz can hide behind their EULA by doing that. That is why Blizz being more transparent about when flying will be released should be a top priority to build player trust after WoD.

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I know I know, if its more of the WoD intro scenario from dark portal -> garison, *brrrr* I shivered every time I hear kadgar telling bladefist "-We dont have that kind of time!" in a "trying to be cool in a game oriented to 5year olds" kind of voice.

Yeah people said they felt Cata was a railroaded experience but it seemed more like that with WoD. The story felt apart after the starting zones in WoD because the Iron Horde weren't a major presence in these zones. Gorgrond was originally supposed to be this way but was remade.

[Deleted]

Also the thing about mandatory: It's not hurting anybody if you can achieve mandatory things by different activities - like, reputation farming requred for mandatory reward XYZ by grinding mobs or doing dailys or buying reputation items from the AH or running specific dungeons or any dungeons with a tabard. While the item is mandatory, you have choice to achieve it with an activity which suits you best. And if some avenue is not available right now (because you already have a daily lockout from the relevant heroic or your dailys for today are finished), then you probably can spend extra time on a different activity if you like so.

Yes, this could lead to burnout if people are not able to restrain themselves. But this is a part of being a responsible person. And if you cannot be that, you should not blame Blizzard.

I don't mind the different parts of Pathfinder 1, I will be doing these things anyway (but I mind that Pathfinder 1 does not grant flying, it's bullshit to hold it back by that point). But I feel sorry for people who will have to do some of these pre-requisites which they don't enjoy because they like flying that much. It's a very bad move from Blizzard. It's like the MoP legendary questline all over again, where dedicated PvE players have to do PvP. I hated it. I don't want to be forced to PvP for a PvE upgrade (another thing where you had this lack of choice for something mandatory). In Wrath, at some point you could opt to get your 310% flying with spending a lot of money (5K was a lot at that times, I only bought this upgrade once), or via PvP, or via a long achievement (violet proto-drake, which I accomplished on 4 characters). This was choice, 3 different paths to achieve the fastest flying (and in the case of money, you were free to farm it the way you wanted).

This is what we are talking about regarding mandatory vs. choice. We don't mind mandatory goals, if there is a choice in how we achieve them.

[Connll]

Blizzard is desperate to have players playing longer. That is why they will not reveal when flight will be available..they will try to stretch out artifact for as long as possible and the badge system was replaced with RNG boxes.

While I feel tempted to believe this, I think its more likely that they are betting on box sales and low investment costs (thus resulting in a shorter game with less content).

After all, pretty much every new info about Legion suggests that boring (and loooooong) grinds are being applied to every facet of the Xpac. They surely know that this is going to drive players away. A LOT of players.

That is, assuming that this course of action is a calculated move. If they are NOT simply lying in their interviews, one can see signs of severe delusion/arrogance in some of the devs, which would result in an inability to see beyond their feedback bubble.

[Bun-Bun]

That's the problem with the current form of pathfinder in Legion: The reward doesn't match the effort. Not anywhere even close to being reasonable.

The reward matches the effort in the sense that unlocking it on one toon makes flying available account wide.

But people like me who are not altoholics don't care about that. So why can't we have a method of unlocking flight for that toon only that is reasonable? That is the question Blizzard has and will not answer.

Unlock flight for 1 toon, and then if the player wants they can complete pathfinder.

That said, I was fine with Draenor pathfinder sans the rep component. Make me explore the world first on the ground, that's fine.

Remove rep requirements and have it fully available at launch at level cap.

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That is, assuming that this course of action is a calculated move. If they are NOT simply lying in their interviews, one can see signs of severe delusion/arrogance in some of the devs, which would result in an inability to see beyond their feedback bubble.

They have mentioned before about being stuck behind upper management on the topic of flight.

I really don't understand why the corporate stiffs would care about flight in a video game.

[SirCowdog]

They have mentioned before about being stuck behind upper management on the topic of flight.

I really don't understand why the corporate stiffs would care about flight in a video game.

Money, pure and simple. What's the first thing that suffers when players are allowed to fly? The length of time they spend on the weak ground content. Time = money, especially with a subscription model. The conflict of interests is obvious.

I mean, sure, they could take the time to develop content that included flight, or make up ways to extend the lifespan of the content in other ways, but that ALSO takes more time. And quite frankly, delaying flight for as long as possible is just easier on the dev process. They already have the formula. They don't have to innovate, they don't have to make changes to the mechanics of ground OR flying mounts. They only have to slap a gate in front and call it good.

[Dhrizzle]

Money, pure and simple. What's the first thing that suffers when players are allowed to fly? The length of time they spend on the weak ground content. Time = money, especially with a subscription model. The conflict of interests is obvious.

I mean, sure, they could take the time to develop content that included flight, or make up ways to extend the lifespan of the content in other ways, but that ALSO takes more time. And quite frankly, delaying flight for as long as possible is just easier on the dev process. They already have the formula. They don't have to innovate, they don't have to make changes to the mechanics of ground OR flying mounts. They only have to slap a gate in front and call it good.

Please explain how restricting flight is in any way cheaper, it's not like they have to feed the flying mounts more or buy a special kind of fuel. Are you still spouting nonsense about Blizz getting rid of flight to keep subs in an expansion that had the least incentive to stay subbed with regards to rewards from repeatable content? Do you honestly think that makes up for the probable loss of sales from the Blizz store?

[CheeseSandwich]

Money, pure and simple. What's the first thing that suffers when players are allowed to fly? The length of time they spend on the weak ground content. Time = money, especially with a subscription model. The conflict of interests is obvious.

I mean, sure, they could take the time to develop content that included flight, or make up ways to extend the lifespan of the content in other ways, but that ALSO takes more time. And quite frankly, delaying flight for as long as possible is just easier on the dev process. They already have the formula. They don't have to innovate, they don't have to make changes to the mechanics of ground OR flying mounts. They only have to slap a gate in front and call it good.

While possible, personally I think they (the devs) just like the game better without flight, for personal reasons. They enjoy the game on the ground and don't understand why the majority of players seem to like it for whatever reason. Many, many changes in recent years have been made on the basis of what felt "fun" to the devs, regardless of any player feedback or response, and I think flight is another one of those decisions.

[SirCowdog]

While possible, personally I think they (the devs) just like the game better without flight, for personal reasons.

Do you really believe that a game that generates as much raw money every month uses something as subjective as "fun" as their driving metric to make decisions? I'm sure it comes into the equation at some point. But if you think the primary force behind the game isn't money, then I have a bridge to sell you. And if you think the dev's "personal reasons" don't get vetted by whether or not it's feasible and profitable, then I don't know what to tell you at all.

[CheeseSandwich]

Do you really believe that a game that generates as much raw money every month uses something as subjective as "fun" as their driving metric to make decisions? I'm sure it comes into the equation at some point. But if you think the primary force behind the game isn't money, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Going by past Blizzard comments on the removal/changes/whatever of things for "not feeling fun" on a wide variety of issues, I get the impression the dev team go entirely by what they find fun in a game. Shouldn't the failure of WoD kinda point to the game being made through a small group of peoples scope of fun, rather than previous expacs where the scope was larger?

Don't get me wrong, I would hope they didn't develop the game this way, but honestly, to me, this current crop seem to be just the right mix of arrogant and stubborn that they KNOW they are right, they just have to force people playing to agree.

I'm primarily talking about how WoD was designed btw. I would agree that Legion is looking kinda bad if some of the assorted grinds are as gated as some beta posters are reporting. More and more like a mobile game where you have daily or half daily bonuses just for doing stuff, then your free to log out and do w/e. Feels hollow to me.

[wing5wong]

After all, pretty much every new info about Legion suggests that boring (and loooooong) grinds are being applied to every facet of the Xpac. They surely know that this is going to drive players away. A LOT of players.

Hitting revered is not a long grind

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While possible, personally I think they (the devs) just like the game better without flight, for personal reasons. They enjoy the game on the ground and don't understand why the majority of players seem to like it for whatever reason. Many, many changes in recent years have been made on the basis of what felt "fun" to the devs, regardless of any player feedback or response, and I think flight is another one of those decisions.

100% this
Whilst player feedback is considered and often does get implemented, it doesnt have to be.
its not a community built game, and sometimes they have to take a hard stance on some decisions.

If they announce a fixed date for flying and then have to change something, then what? Everyone will be pissed.
What if they are building flying specific content for an X.1 patch and want to hold off until then? You just dont know every reason.

If the mount speed increase is significant, the flying removes tedium arguments are just weak. (ok, some people like to take nice screenshots)

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I'm primarily talking about how WoD was designed btw. I would agree that Legion is looking kinda bad if some of the assorted grinds are as gated as some beta posters are reporting.

Make sure you distinguish between actual beta players and beta doomsayers.

[CheeseSandwich]

If they announce a fixed date for flying and then have to change something, then what? Everyone will be pissed.
What if they are building flying specific content for an X.1 patch and want to hold off until then? You just dont know every reason.

I generally agree with this, but I also think it is a foolish move by them given the kick back they got from it in WoD. I would hope they would be trying to be as informative as they can, rather than going clam on the issue again and hoping it works this time.

But my devil's advocate is saying 'They probably had no idea they would have to re-implement flying in WoD, and they weren't preparing Legion for it, so they did emergency fix on WoD while going on full steam ahead, no change of course on Legion (to late/giving it a second shot of winning over players with the ground game/ stubbornness/ whatever) until they can maybe rush it in with the first content patch if the outcry is large enough, and then have the luxury of saying "That was the plan all along!!"'.

Make sure you distinguish between actual beta players and beta doomsayers.

Yeah, I read it all with a shaker full of salt.

[Connll]

Hitting revered is not a long grind

Its is very long in WoD and will be even longer in Legion