No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[SirCowdog]

Going by past Blizzard comments on the removal/changes/whatever of things for "not feeling fun" on a wide variety of issues, I get the impression the dev team go entirely by what they find fun in a game. Shouldn't the failure of WoD kinda point to the game being made through a small group of peoples scope of fun, rather than previous expacs where the scope was larger?

Don't get me wrong, I would hope they didn't develop the game this way, but honestly, to me, this current crop seem to be just the right mix of arrogant and stubborn that they KNOW they are right, they just have to force people playing to agree.

I'm primarily talking about how WoD was designed btw. I would agree that Legion is looking kinda bad if some of the assorted grinds are as gated as some beta posters are reporting. More and more like a mobile game where you have daily or half daily bonuses just for doing stuff, then your free to log out and do w/e. Feels hollow to me.

I think it might appear that way because there's a pretty strong disconnect between what Blizzard says and what Blizzard actually does. Every single one of their Blue posts in response to something wrong with the game is chocked full of PR sugar coating and spin. Also, just because a design decision was made that doesn't make sense to us doesn't necessarily mean it was based on some dev's idea of fun. It could simply be a a bad decision. Blizzard is not perfect.

Do I think the dev process is completely devoid of influence from devs' person bias? No, of course not. But I think that, ultimately, decisions go through a filter and run up against some basic guiding principles. Why do you think the "no flying ever again" decision was reversed? Because it was pretty clearly costing them money. So they re-tooled it into a more palatable version.

[CheeseSandwich]

I think it might appear that way because there's a pretty strong disconnect between what Blizzard says and what Blizzard actually does. Every single one of their Blue posts in response to something wrong with the game is chocked full of PR sugar coating and spin. Also, just because a design decision was made that doesn't make sense to us doesn't necessarily mean it was based on some dev's idea of fun. It could simply be a a bad decision.

I'm not just talking about blue posts, I'm also talking about blizzcon presentations, video and written press interviews, ama's et al. There has, for the last few years, been a consistent line of explanation on what the devs find fun being the game as gospel, for better or worse.

And yes, but a bad decision doesn't indicate they did it for monetary gain. It could simply be a bad decision.

Do I think the dev process is completely devoid of influence from devs' person bias? No, of course not. But I think that, ultimately, decisions go through a filter and run up against some basic guiding principles. Why do you think the "no flying ever again" decision was reversed? Because it was pretty clearly costing them money. So they re-tooled it into a more palatable version.

Because, prior to the ultimate decision of no flight going forward, the flight chat had been consistent, persistant, but not an overwhelming majority. It was only when they dropped the bomb 'yeah flying's done for" on a Friday before a long weekend did the player base lose their collective shit at large, in a very significant and impossible to ignore outcry of protest that forced their hand to realize that their vision may not be the utopia for players they thought it was.

[wing5wong]

Its is very long in WoD and will be even longer in Legion

You consider several days to obtain everything a long time?

[SirCowdog]

Because, prior to the ultimate decision of no flight going forward, the flight chat had been consistent, persistant, but not an overwhelming majority. It was only when they dropped the bomb 'yeah flying's done for" on a Friday before a long weekend did the player base lose their collective shit at large, in a very significant and impossible to ignore outcry of protest that forced their hand to realize that their vision may not be the utopia for players they thought it was.

What blows me away is that it took something like that to get Blizzard to relent on what was obviously a bad idea. It faced resistance and criticism from the moment the idea was first introduced back before beta. And now they're going for round two with it, even knowing that it risks that same level of blowout.

That's why I think Legion Pathfinder is just a delaying tactic. They know they can't get away with removing flight entirely, so they've converted over to using it as a carrot instead. Practically speaking, it accomplishes many of the same goals as permanent no-flying, just without the added sting. I think people who aren't looking as closely as us aren't going to realize that until they've already invested a bunch of time in Legion and won't want to give up on it. I suspect that's part of the plan too.

- - - Updated - - -

You consider several days to obtain everything a long time?

The amount of time it's going to take to finish in the live version is completely unknown and unset. Beta times could very well be adjusted in order to speed up the process to give testers access. It could take more or less time once the xpack launches.

Anyway, the time needed to complete 7.0 pathfinder is irrelevant until flight is actually available later in the expansion. Once flight is finally available it's also entirely possible that there could be catch-up mechanics in place, and grind time could potentially be lower due to increased character power later in the expansion as gear accumulates.

All in all I think rep grinds are horrible mechanics to have in the game in the first place, but at this point there simply isn't enough info to have a decent argument about it yet, nor do I think it even matters until you can actually complete the full requirements.

[CheeseSandwich]

What blows me away is that it took something like that to get Blizzard to relent on what was obviously a bad idea. It faced resistance and criticism from the moment the idea was first introduced back before beta. And now they're going for round two with it, even knowing that it risks that same level of blowout.

That's why I think Legion Pathfinder is just a delaying tactic. They know they can't get away with removing flight entirely, so they've converted over to using it as a carrot instead. Practically speaking, it accomplishes many of the same goals as permanent no-flying, just without the added sting. I think people who aren't looking as closely as us aren't going to realize that until they've already invested a bunch of time in Legion and won't want to give up on it. I suspect that's part of the plan too.

Which is really what makes me think they think they "made a game that players would forget about flying" (ala Afrasiabi's infamous "50/50" interview that kicked off this whole player divide and needless war), and that the ultimate outcry caught them off guard. Now they are trying to play it safe as houses, hoping that this time maybe players forget about flight while also reserving the right to play a trump card that flight was always incoming in "first Legion patch".

And yeah, I think they hope they can use it as a carrot, ie the outcry follows the same pattern as last time and they can string it out, maybe get a few returning players during the lull. But if shit kicks off from the get go, which it is very likely too imo, then they can try to add it to 7.1, or 7.1.1 or asap.

[SirCowdog]

Which is really what makes me think they think they "made a game that players would forget about flying" (ala Afrasiabi's infamous "50/50" interview that kicked off this whole player divide and needless war), and that the ultimate outcry caught them off guard. Now they are trying to play it safe as houses, hoping that this time maybe players forget about flight while also reserving the right to play a trump card that flight was always incoming in "first Legion patch".

And yeah, I think they hope they can use it as a carrot, ie the outcry follows the same pattern as last time and they can string it out, maybe get a few returning players during the lull. But if shit kicks off from the get go, which it is very likely too imo, then they can try to add it to 7.1, or 7.1.1 or asap.

Yup. Hedge their bets by having Legion ready for flight, but hold off on it and squeeze as much value out of being grounded for as long as possible. Then open up flight when subs start to flag, maybe get some players to return, but milk them too by having the achievement run them around as much of the content as possible, potentially getting them to invest heavily enough in the game to stay.

On a side note, it's difficult for me to credit "a world where you forget about flying" when you're reminded of its lack every step of the way. Every cliff, every tiny little hill, and even the NPCs are asking you "What are we without the sky?". I'm not sure if they could have screwed it up worse if they tried.

[CheeseSandwich]

On a side note, it's difficult for me to credit "a world where you forget about flying" when you're reminded of its lack every step of the way. Every cliff, every tiny little hill, and even the NPCs are asking you "What are we without the sky?". I'm not sure if they could have screwed it up worse if they tried.

Not to mention the flying in Ashran, the Soaring over Draenor manual that was soaked with tears (later changed to "....what are we without the sky?"), the numerous story elements where characters mounted and flew away, and the druid NPC picking up a player druid (cuz they forgots their form?)and flying them to the next part of the garrison quest chain.

Edit : and Shattrah city with all its air defences.

[MoanaLisa]

The reward doesn't match the effort. Not anywhere even close to being reasonable.

That's a personal judgment and people will disagree. I suppose in one sense it's a good measure of how important flying is to someone. For all of those who are complaining about Pathfinder it would seem that it's not as important as it is made out to be. Of course people will be outraged by my writing that but there's a certain truth to it. "I want the reward but I don't want to do everything that's required to get it" is a commonly expressed sentiment over a range of topics. Three posters account for over 1200 posts in this thread alone (20%) and none of them seem to think that flying is worth getting given the requirements. That's kind of interesting and counter-intuitive.

[wing5wong]

The amount of time it's going to take to finish in the live version is completely unknown and unset. Beta times could very well be adjusted in order to speed up the process to give testers access. It could take more or less time once the xpack launches.

Anyway, the time needed to complete 7.0 pathfinder is irrelevant until flight is actually available later in the expansion. Once flight is finally available it's also entirely possible that there could be catch-up mechanics in place, and grind time could potentially be lower due to increased character power later in the expansion as gear accumulates.

All in all I think rep grinds are horrible mechanics to have in the game in the first place, but at this point there simply isn't enough info to have a decent argument about it yet, nor do I think it even matters until you can actually complete the full requirements.

The time to get the rep isn't unknown based on the current rep gains. It might be adjusted slightly but highly unlikely to see any more major changes to rep gain
It's also not irrelevant to get it now. You get faster move speed. If that is only 5%, then sure

What do you want outside of rep grinds? There's only so much 1-time content you can design and the rep comes from repeatable dailies/instances- as it has since vanilla

[clevin]

The time to get the rep isn't unknown based on the current rep gains
It's also not irrelevant to get it now. You get faster move speed. If that is only 5%, then sure

What do you want outside of rep grinds? There's only so much 1-time content you can design and the rep comes from repeatable dailies/instances- as it has since vanilla

What I want is what I've outlined in this threads before - a quest line tailored to why we can't fly and that thematically makes sense as to how we get flight back. Something like "We cannot take to the air because of the massive amount of fel magic the Legion incursion has released. You, hero need to (gather things, destroy Legion emplacements, etc)" You then do that for a series of quests that coincidentally take you all over the zones. Once done, we cast a spell or something and voila we can fly. That's the right way. WoD pathfinder was bullshit not because it was hard, but it was obvious that the team just kept adding things until everyone was OK with it. What do treasures or reps have to do with why we can't fly? Nothing.

"But that's a lot of one time content!!!!"

So what? They don't HAVE to choose to delay flight. If they're going to, they least they can do is give us good, interesting content to do in order to regain it.

[SirCowdog]

That's a personal judgment and people will disagree. I suppose in one sense it's a good measure of how important flying is to someone. For all of those who are complaining about Pathfinder it would seem that it's not as important as it is made out to be. Of course people will be outraged by my writing that but there's a certain truth to it. "I want the reward but I don't want to do everything that's required to get it" is a commonly expressed sentiment over a range of topics. Three posters account for over 1200 posts in this thread alone (20%) and none of them seem to think that flying is worth getting given the requirements. That's kind of interesting and counter-intuitive.

It's because we went from "Buy flying for gold at level cap" to "Do most of the content(that you would otherwise use flying FOR) and grind some reps" just to unlock it. And now we're going to "Do most of the content(that you would otherwise use flying for) AND wait until Blizzard gets around to making it available at some unknown later date".

Again, it's not an issue of not wanting to put in effort. It's an issue of the effort being dis-proportionally stupid compared to the final 'reward'.

- - - Updated - - -

The time to get the rep isn't unknown based on the current rep gains. It might be adjusted slightly but highly unlikely to see any more major changes to rep gain
It's also not irrelevant to get it now. You get faster move speed. If that is only 5%, then sure

What do you want outside of rep grinds? There's only so much 1-time content you can design and the rep comes from repeatable dailies/instances- as it has since vanilla

I'm much more in favor of mechanics like we're seeing out of Mythic+, where the higher you push the difficulty, the mechanics of the dungeons actually changes. The concept of "New Game+" has been around for awhile. Things like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night where the castle turns upside down and allows you to play the game over again, but with a new twist on the original. Hell, even Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare 3 had a new playthrough once you finished the campaign.

I think WoW could benefit from something like that instead of simple grinds. Timewalking is a good start, although I would prefer if the Timewalking dungeons actually had new mechanics to them. Mythic+ is a better way to go. Apply that theory to parts of the end-game across the board. Keep the main story linear for the sake of Lore and presentation, but the end-game progression needs more spice. If it's going to be a grind, at least the core gameplay loop could be more interesting.

[Bun-Bun]

That's a personal judgment and people will disagree. I suppose in one sense it's a good measure of how important flying is to someone. For all of those who are complaining about Pathfinder it would seem that it's not as important as it is made out to be. Of course people will be outraged by my writing that but there's a certain truth to it. "I want the reward but I don't want to do everything that's required to get it" is a commonly expressed sentiment over a range of topics. Three posters account for over 1200 posts in this thread alone (20%) and none of them seem to think that flying is worth getting given the requirements. That's kind of interesting and counter-intuitive.

Outraged? Of course! I want to enjoy the game the way I want to play it. What's left after doing pathfinder and waiting months upon months for them to allow flight? Nothing. So why even bother?

I came back to do pathfinder in Draenor, and guess what? There is nothing left to do now that I have flight. I spent the entire xpac hopefull of flight and forcing myself to play the content in a way I didn't enjoy. And what's Blizzard response? Nothing. And after the fiasco have how they handled it in Draenor I feel like I deserve something in return for buying that heap of crap. But no, they learn nothing and are repeating the same mistakes again.

This isn't about players wanting reward for nothing. This is players wanting a feature of the game they have paid for and spent countless hours against already. Like I said in a prior post, most of my drive in Wrath was collecting flying mounts. I spent the time to get epic flight and collect the mounts that i have sot hat I could use them. Not have them forget how to fly.

BC and Wrath were fine. Leveling without flight is fine. Piss poor excuse for end game world content without flight is not fine. Excessive requirements pathfinder achievement is not fine. People talk of compromise. Where is the compromise here? No one is even the slightest bit happy with this outcome.

[Elim Garak]

I want to fly in current content. Pathfinder's reward is not it.

[Thimagryn]

Just butting in to say don't care much about flight. Nice to have but don't need it. Leveled to 100 in 3 days in WoD without flight, didn't bother to leave the garrison ever again. Flying works fine around Stormwind. That's about it really.

Sucks for the people who want it but don't want to do the achievements, but as I see it there aren't that many who aren't willing to do it if they want it badly enough.

[Saiona]

So many whiners. I'm glad they are sticking to their guns. People complaining about getting revered. Jesus fucking christ none of you actually want to play the game do you? You just want to log in and fly around hurp durp

[SirCowdog]

So many whiners. I'm glad they are sticking to their guns. People complaining about getting revered. Jesus fucking christ none of you actually want to play the game do you? You just want to log in and fly around hurp durp

Sucks for the people who want it but don't want to do the achievements, but as I see it there aren't that many who aren't willing to do it if they want it badly enough.

It's funny how easy it is to spout off about something you don't care about and haven't taken the time to understand. How about we start locking BGs, arenas, dungeons, and raids behind pathfinder and see what the response is.

[Saiona]

It's funny how easy it is to spout off about something you don't care about and haven't taken the time to understand. How about we start locking BGs, arenas, dungeons, and raids behind pathfinder and see what the response is.

They are locking suramar dungeons behind rep and I believe the suramar raid behind those dungeons and I love it. I miss attunements. Flying isn't the same as all those things you listed. Flying can't stand toe to toe with BGs or raids in terms of content. Flying is just a convience not content.

[Thimagryn]

It's funny how easy it is to spout off about something you don't care about and haven't taken the time to understand. How about we start locking BGs, arenas, dungeons, and raids behind pathfinder and see what the response is.

Flying isn't content, it's convenience. You could say this about heirlooms, and see that it wouldn't really change many opinions.

The fact that you have flying available to you is already more than you can ask for. If you don't understand that, why not ask how Legacy people feel for not being able to play Vanilla. Unlocking an achievement is better than not having the option at all.

[Etheric]

Unlocking an achievement, you mean we have to *work* for stuff and not get it right away?
Common, I bought this game or what?
(irony inside)

[wing5wong]

Outraged? Of course! I want to enjoy the game the way I want to play it.

never quite got this, the game isnt built for you to play the way you want to.

This isn't about players wanting reward for nothing. This is players wanting a feature of the game they have paid for and spent countless hours against already. Like I said in a prior post, most of my drive in Wrath was collecting flying mounts. I spent the time to get epic flight and collect the mounts that i have sot hat I could use them. Not have them forget how to fly.

Flight is still available in the areas you payed for it.
there is "magic" preventing flying, done.

BC and Wrath were fine. Leveling without flight is fine. Piss poor excuse for end game world content without flight is not fine. Excessive requirements pathfinder achievement is not fine. People talk of compromise. Where is the compromise here? No one is even the slightest bit happy with this outcome.

Doing quests and obtaining rep is not excessive.
Blizz obviously shifting the bar slightly away from those that play for 5-6 hours a week.