[Megathread] Bernie Sanders 2016

[therayeffect]

*snip*

No, I understand the strategy perfectly well and that's why I hate it and why I wanted Bernie to win. I don't need some pseudo lecture in strategy when I already know it's all about the money and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future because Bernie lost. The filthy rich will stay filthy rich and things won't change until people wise-up. I only hope that thousands more don't die in another war and somehow whoever is elected actually does positive things for America and we actually move forward.

[Dextroden]

I honestly think they don't care. They're trying to make a point. Because *that's* ever worked.

I mean let's think through this. What is more likely in our center-right country. That Bernie Sanders would have a successful 4 years despite a Republican House and a razor-thin Senate (for either party), and go on for another 4 years to "complete his political revolution". Or that the Republican House and razor-thin Senate would erect a massive barrier for any liberal policy the ACTUAL Socialist President tried to get passed... so in other words another 4 years of Gridlock, with Sanders doing "compromising" things he must do, like sign military spending bills and order the CIA to drone Al Qaeda. And then we'd get to 2020 and Republicans would put up a candidate much better than Trump who would either force Sanders to tack towards the center, or lose.

The Sanderistas never made any sense. They saw, over the last 6 years, Tea Party fanatacism... Tea Party "purity tests" and "primarying" utterly demolish the Republican Party's ability to put forward center-right figures in favor of hard right nut jobs. And these Sanderistas liked this so much they wanted to import this into the Democratic Party, the one actually functioning political party in the US? It's nuts.

I'm a conservative, but thank god for the Democratic Party. Since 2006, they've been the only adults in the room. They have repeatedly put country before rigid ideology and compromised... in funding the Iraq War, the bailouts, and many more things. Republicans, have, in turn, gone nuts and on four separate occasions, taken the entire country and international economy hostage. That's because the Democrats have their shit together and the Republicans let extremists take over.

It's crazy to me that Sanderistas want to emulate, essentially, Tea Party tactics, but on the left. And they want this DESPITE Barack Obama's liberal 2nd term. Are they stupid or just insane? Because the state-level Republican party, often (but not always) less crazy than the national party, has trucked Democrats the past 6 years at that level. A moderate national Republican party would do the same. The solution... to appeal just to liberals... is no solution at all.

You know. Before today, I had never really looked at the Bernie Reddit while semi joking about how they were setting up to be the Democratic tea party.

I decided to see if the gnashing was delightful (It was). Then, I looked at the top of the page. "Grassroots for Sanders." This was a GIGANTIC victory for the Dems, in hindsight. This was something that needed to be nipped in the bud.

[Kasierith]

No, I understand the strategy perfectly well and that's why I hate it and why I wanted Bernie to win. I don't need some pseudo lecture in strategy when I already know it's all about the money and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future because Bernie lost. The filthy rich will stay filthy rich and things won't change until people wise-up. I only hope that thousands more don't die in another war and somehow whoever is elected actually does positive things for America and we actually move forward.

You say you understand the strategy, and yet immediately run away screaming in the opposite direction of any functional understanding of how modern politics work. There is no realistic scenario where Sanders would have worked out as president of the United States without drastically compromising his ideals... with the most likely outcome being four years of Sanders screaming red faced into a mic while Congress simply learns to ignore him and continue doing what they wished. Nothing done, and a complete route in 2020 from a recuperated Republican party.

[Skroe]

Skroe is triggered heavily by Bernie, I almost suspect Bernie must have banged his mom or something, or his sister, or waifu body pillow. Idk.

Most Clinton supporters are probably more like Crissi. This forum is is.....is... a dark place. XD

I want to respond to this.

I am triggered by Bernie. I'm also triggered by Trump. All moderate Americans on the center right, center and center left should be. They're extremists. The both of them.

Bernie and Trump are the American expression of the anti-establishment mood sweeping the Western world. Most countries in the Western world have gone through a change of government since the 2008 financial crisis, at least once. Going from center-left to center-right and back again. Europe, until recently, was in the doldrums regardless. The (mistaken) impression being, no "establishment" party can solve the linger effects on unemployment (particularly youth) and inequality. Coupled with immigration and foreign adventurism, we've seen the rise in Europe of hard left and hard right parties.

The United States is extremely inhibited against the rise of destablizing third parties, so it happened within the two major ones. The Republican Party, still not recovered from the Bush years, was infiltrated by Trump who basically ran a third party crypto-fascist nationalist campaign within the Republican Party. THe Democratic Party, much stronger than the Republicans institutionally, had Bernie Sanders, a socialist who has been a Democrat for about 12 months, run his insurgent campaign.

I am triggered because every time Western Democracy has rejected political moderation in favor of extremism - on the right or the left, it's ended in catastrophe. Sometimes it's economic or political. Some time's it's military.

The United States' has a vested interested in making sure all of these outsider parties in Europe are brought to heel, as SYRIZA was, or marginalized and defeated. Jeremy Corbyn for example, must not be allowed to become British Prime Minister. But we need to make sure that the home front is kept in order as well, and that means no radical, destructive shifts, on the right or left.

Bernie and Trump would upend a system that is far from perfect, but simply does work. That graph above illustrates. Yes. We have immense inequities and problems. But we always do. And we solve them with modest reform. Trump and Sanders, mostly through blatant dishonesty, are crisis generating - playing on people's fears and insecurity to advance an agenda that really has nothing to do with the America we have now. Most Americans simply do not live these kind of highly dramatic, ultra political lives. Our government should reflect that moderation, not Sanders and Trump's extremism.

I've said repeatedly why I am voting for Hillary. I am #NeverTrump conservative. But the deal is off after she takes off. That meant, in the primary season, beating down the hard left. Next up, this summer, is the hard right.

I don't particularly like Hillary Clinton or the Clintons. Their political careers have been filled with a very seedy, cheap corruption. But there is no denying her experience, and there is no denying that regardless of her failures, this country for the sake of it's soul must take a MORAL stand against the extremism that both Trump and Sanders represent. This is a country of moderates. Center-left, the center and center-right. The far left and far right must be denied liscence to try and remake it in their extreme visions.

[Illuminance]

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The Middle class has shrunk by 4% in 15 years, while upper middle grew by 1% and highest income grew by 2%. I'd think it's a good thing we moved 3% of people up the ladder, even though 1% fell way down.

The shrinking middle class is at best, a half truth that's been politically weaponized.

Why pick 15 years when the trend has existed for 4 decades? My comment was in response to a 30 year time difference. If you extrapolate and say that the middle class will be at close to 40%, the upper class and lower classes each growing respectively, it's just going to get worse and worse.

That doesn't even factor into consideration that major expenses are rising for Americans (it's not just an income inequality problem, but a rising expense problem). University education is becoming both important and more expensive. Healthcare is getting expensive. The only people who are going to be having a good time are going to be the 20% in the top, even if middle income makes a sizable portion.

[Skroe]

No, I understand the strategy perfectly well and that's why I hate it and why I wanted Bernie to win. I don't need some pseudo lecture in strategy when I already know it's all about the money and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future because Bernie lost. The filthy rich will stay filthy rich and things won't change until people wise-up. I only hope that thousands more don't die in another war and somehow whoever is elected actually does positive things for America and we actually move forward.

And I hope that tomorrow I'll wake up and Unicorns will deliver rainbow doughnuts to me.

We all want things. But how do you *achieve* these things. Wanting is never enough. Hatred is irrelevant. Hope is pointless.

You play the rules of the game or you don't win. It's as simple as that.

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Why pick 15 years when the trend has existed for 4 decades? My comment was in response to a 30 year time difference. If you extrapolate and say that the middle class will be at close to 40%, the upper class and lower classes each growing respectively, it's just going to get worse and worse.

That doesn't even factor into consideration that major expenses are rising for Americans (it's not just an income inequality problem, but a rising expense problem). University education is becoming both important and more expensive. Healthcare is getting expensive. The only people who are going to be having a good time are going to be the 20% in the top, even if middle income makes a sizable portion.

I would not assume going back to 1971 is at all the ideal model. Really 1991 is the ideal model. Between 1991 and 2016 we've had the first and third longest economic expansions in our Nation's history.

Also simple extrapolation like you did is baseless speculation.

[Illuminance]

Also simple extrapolation like you did is baseless speculation.

We're looking at data. I don't think you know what "baseless" means. Sure, it's speculation, but at least it has evidence to support it.

[Skroe]

You know. Before today, I had never really looked at the Bernie Reddit while semi joking about how they were setting up to be the Democratic tea party.

I decided to see if the gnashing was delightful (It was). Then, I looked at the top of the page. "Grassroots for Sanders." This was a GIGANTIC victory for the Dems, in hindsight. This was something that needed to be nipped in the bud.

It really is.

The good news is, the Clintons are the Clintons. They are not going to allow a rival power base to take root in the Democratic party and challenge Hillary's authority. That's why those saying this "political revolution" has legs are delusional. Bereft a voice, money and manpower, there is no revolution, and the Clintons will see to that.

Obama tolerated rival powerbases in the Democratic Party, and for his trouble he got the Clintons undermining him the first 6 years, and Elizabeth Warren being the liberal saint the last four. The Clintons will not make the same mistake. It is not their style. Bernie Sanders is more likely to be put out to pasture, than brought into the fold.

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We're looking at data. I don't think you know what "baseless" means. Sure, it's speculation, but at least it has evidence to support it.

Saying "we contracted 10% in the last 30 years" in no way can be reasonable extrapolated to imply that we'll strink another 10% in the next 30. Especially when you consider the changes to the economy the last 30 years (such as the decline of manufacturing, rise of computers, globalization).

Many of these were one-offs. We wont have to go through globalization again.

[Dextroden]

Anti-extremism

Now, why did you do that? Now Theo's going to blow a fuse trying to comprehend you not liking her but voting for her.

But, no seriously. This countries going to get fucked up if people don't learn that rebelling and screaming corruption at every loss doesn't fix shit.

[Illuminance]

The good news is, the Clintons are the Clintons. They are not going to allow a rival power base to take root in the Democratic party and challenge Hillary's authority. That's why those saying this "political revolution" has legs are delusional. Bereft a voice, money and manpower, there is no revolution, and the Clintons will see to that.

Actually originally came here to comment on something like this. Sanders has the potential to be nearly as big a thorn to the Democrats as Trump is to the GOP. All he has to do is not endorse Clinton and run as an independent, and he very well could ruin the election for her. However, from the latest news it sounds like he is going to support her against Trump.

He might even set a precedent for third party politicians, but it's clear he hasn't been influential enough to dethrone someone like Clinton.

[Dextroden]

Actually originally came here to comment on something like this. Sanders has the potential to be nearly as big a thorn to the Democrats as Trump is to the GOP. All he has to do is not endorse Clinton and run as an independent, and he very well could ruin the election for her. However, from the latest news it sounds like he is going to support her against Trump.

He might even set a precedent for third party politicians, but it's clear he hasn't been influential enough to dethrone someone like Clinton.

And then he goes from being on the backbench to out in the cold.

I know you people really want a revolution, but it ain't happening. Either he kneels and kisses the ring or he stands alone in the corner while grown ups talk.

[Illuminance]

And then he goes from being on the backbench to out in the cold.

I know you people really want a revolution, but it ain't happening. Either he kneels and kisses the ring or he stands alone in the corner while grown ups talk.

First of all, I don't know what people you think I am. I haven't said anything pro or anti Sanders. I'm merely saying he's got the potential to have a big impact on Hillary if he stays in the race. If you think that hasn't happened before, you should go back and review the history of elections in this country.

[Dextroden]

First of all, I don't know what people you think I am. I haven't said anything pro or anti Sanders. I'm merely saying he's got the potential to have a big impact on Hillary if he stays in the race. If you think that hasn't happened before, you should go back and review the history of elections in this country.

He's not staying in this race. He's a prideful man who thinks his ideas have a shot. But, since he wants to be relevant later, he's going to play ball now that Obama has put his foot down. He's done everything he could.

[Gray_Matter]

Whoever said people vote for what's best for them??? Bernie himself admitted, if the people who would benefit the most from his policy ideas (the poor) would actually vote, he would have performed much better.

Please read the article that I linked to on the previous page. That is a fallacy. In fact, African Americans take it as an insult when you say that they don't know or vote for what is best for them.

[Dextroden]

Please read the article that I linked to on the previous page. That is a fallacy. In fact, African Americans take it as an insult when you say that they don't know or vote for what is best for them.

Atleast refer to us properly, friend. You know we go by the faceless organism called "The Black Vote".

(This is a joke. I am blatantly aware every potential group of voters becomes the X Vote. There's just been something funny to me about that kind of filter system.)

[therayeffect]

And I hope that tomorrow I'll wake up and Unicorns will deliver rainbow doughnuts to me.

We all want things. But how do you *achieve* these things. Wanting is never enough. Hatred is irrelevant. Hope is pointless.

You play the rules of the game or you don't win. It's as simple as that.

LOL, they didn't play by the rules at all, ironically. Remember Nevada? The rules weren't in the Establishment's favor so they changed them while spitting in the face of the people and then lied saying the dissenters were violent.

The way to achieve greatness is to strive for it. I don't see Clinton as a better option than Trump, not even a little bit. Why should we always be stuck picking between the lesser of two evils? Sanders was the start of that change towards greatness. He's not perfect but he's so much better of a candidate than Clinton that it just boggles my mind that she won. Every single logical argument seems to say that Sanders is the better candidate but I guess I had the wrong idea of what Democrats actually are in this country and Liberal isn't the answer, for today. I still think he needs to keep himself separate from her until she possibly clears this FBI hurdle. I think he should be humble and polite about it, especially if it runs after the Convention because she has pretty much won. I'm afraid we're going to have a repeat of the same shit that happened in 2000 when we went backwards under Bush because of a terrible, scandal-ridden Clinton Presidency.

You say you understand the strategy, and yet immediately run away screaming in the opposite direction of any functional understanding of how modern politics work. There is no realistic scenario where Sanders would have worked out as president of the United States without drastically compromising his ideals... with the most likely outcome being four years of Sanders screaming red faced into a mic while Congress simply learns to ignore him and continue doing what they wished. Nothing done, and a complete route in 2020 from a recuperated Republican party.

I mean, I said I hated it. "Sanders can't do anything because he doesn't have a Senate majority blah blah blah." This argument is so old and tired. If we don't take a step now, how will we ever walk a 1000 miles? Tell me where I'm supposed to slowly start changing things if Bernie can't get anything done because Clinton isn't change. She is The Status Quo.

I find your last sentence ironic considering that the first order of business for the Republican party might be to try to impeach Clinton given the email stuff. For all their hate for Obama, I can see it getting worse under Clinton unless it's for businesses, then life will be great. On top of that, they literally said that their goal was to stop everything Obama and he still got reelected.

[Dextroden]

LOL, they didn't play by the rules at all, ironically. Remember Nevada? The rules weren't in the Establishment's favor so they changed them while spitting in the face of the people and then lied saying the dissenters were violent.

The way to achieve greatness is to strive for it. I don't see Clinton as a better option than Trump, not even a little bit. Why should we always be stuck picking between the lesser of two evils? Sanders was the start of that change towards greatness. He's not perfect but he's so much better of a candidate than Clinton that it just boggles my mind that she won. Every single logical argument seems to say that Sanders is the better candidate but I guess I had the wrong idea of what Democrats actually are in this country and Liberal isn't the answer, for today. I still think he needs to keep himself separate from her until she possibly clears this FBI hurdle. I think he should be humble and polite about it, especially if it runs after the Convention because she has pretty much won. I'm afraid we're going to have a repeat of the same shit that happened in 2000 when we went backwards under Bush because of a terrible, scandal-ridden Clinton Presidency.



I mean, I said I hated it. "Sanders can't do anything because he doesn't have a Senate majority blah blah blah." This argument is so old and tired. If we don't take a step now, how will we ever walk a 1000 miles? Tell me where I'm supposed to slowly start changing things if Bernie can't get anything done because Clinton isn't change. She is The Status Quo.

I find your last sentence ironic considering that the first order of business for the Republican party might be to try to impeach Clinton given the email stuff. For all their hate for Obama, I can see it getting worse under Clinton unless it's for businesses, then life will be great. On top of that, they literally said that their goal was to stop everything Obama and he still got reelected.

Can't walk 1000 miles through a shut door. And you can't get shit done with two parties against you.

You want to get your change? Find someone with good ideals that DOESN'T claim to be running a revolution. People might take that one seriously.

[Gray_Matter]

Atleast refer to us properly, friend. You know we go by the faceless organism called "The Black Vote".

(This is a joke. I am blatantly aware every potential group of voters becomes the X Vote. There's just been something funny to me about that kind of filter system.)

I remember a pod cast talking about the "White vote". Obviously there are many groups within each demographic and they vote differently. My post above wasn't saying that all poor people are African American, just that some African Americans are poor and they fit into the group described and in the article I linked, the writer says that it's really insulting to imply that African Americans don't know what is good for them when they vote. They come from a background where they have had to really struggle and they see the benefit in incremental changes. He said it's one of the reasons why they look up more to Martin Luther King than to Malcolm X. He goes on to say that they have seen tremendous benefits under Obama but the hard core liberals don't see that, they see only someone falling short of their ideals. I am paraphrasing, of course.

[Dextroden]

I remember a pod cast talking about the "White vote". Obviously there are many groups within each demographic and they vote differently. My post above wasn't saying that all poor people are African American, just that some African Americans are poor and they fit into the group described and in the article I linked, the writer says that it's really insulting to imply that African Americans don't know what is good for them when they vote. They come from a background where they have had to really struggle and they see the benefit in incremental changes. He said it's one of the reasons why they look up more to Martin Luther King than to Malcolm X. He goes on to say that they have seen tremendous benefits under Obama but the hard core liberals don't see that, they see only someone falling short of their ideals. I am paraphrasing, of course.

I am restating this. It was just a joke for fun.

But of course hardcore liberals felt betrayed by him. He wasn't one and aimed for compromise.

It doesn't matter if it's from the left or right. Extremism breeds contempt for anything but your own extremism. There was a reason Romney was carved for going to the center in the general. There is a reason that Obama is being tarred and feathered on the Bernie reddit. There is a reason they threaten to turn on Bernie if he supports Clinton.

No compromise or alliances. You get what you want or riots.

[Gray_Matter]

I am restating this. It was just a joke for fun.

I know, I just thought that other may misinterpret my post so I clarified in response to yours