No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Mafic]

Analogy on a forum is bad and shows a weak point because it does nothing but distract from the point at hand because, even if an analogy can be good, the other would still argue it is flawed. Resulting in it achieving that you now instead argue about analogies instead of the topic at hand.

Analogies is a good way to bridge understanding or show why there is disagreement. Arguing the analogy means you are still arguing the spirit and core discussion. Simply put you are off base and probably don't understand even what a debate topic is about or even the scientific process.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not exploring if its forced. If you force players into playing a certain way the game isn't an mmo anymore

Exactly. An MMORPG is about organic exploration but it being forced shows that it is used as a massive gating mechanism with no end in sight.

- - - Updated - - -

Analogies were used to convince Kalgan to undo the PVP system where they had no entry level honor weapons for PVP in WotLK by saying imagine trying to raid without having entry level weapons from the badge system or heroics.

That was a convincing analogy that caused change.

So yes analogies is an important tool in the real world, forums and in particular in this discussion regarding how flying is being handled.

Imagine, if they gated all the dungeons behind rep how would players react? They are gating two dungeons in Suramar and players are already disgruntled. They plan on gating future dungeons behind more rep and "attunements"...players will be even more disgruntled.

Flying is being gated behind massive rep grind.

Analogies work very good to compare game systems in this game. Those that protest the use off analogies have an intellectually bankrupt argument and can't present a counter argument in the first place.

[Deleted]

That is how normal human conversations go though, regardless of the use of analogies. Just like how this conversation is about the gating of flight in Legion seeing as how the majority of players want it and Blizz's lack of balls to to actually explain their intent with it going forward (again), and now we are talking about analogies. Conversations have a tendency to wander, just like me on my flying mount when I have some down time.
It's like when you start talking to someone about your weekend, then end up talking about the banking industry. No analogy was used to link those two, the conversation just went that way naturally.

Again, you keep proving my point lol we are not even discussing flying, but analogy. Maybe this is why this topic is at over 300 pages. People keep repeating themselves....

Analogies is a good way to bridge understanding or show why there is disagreement. Arguing the analogy means you are still arguing the spirit and core discussion. Simply put you are off base and probably don't understand even what a debate topic is about or even the scientific process.

- - - Updated - - -



Exactly. An MMORPG is about organic exploration but it being forced shows that it is used as a massive gating mechanism with no end in sight.

Sorry, have to laugh at this. There is nothing scientific about "should flying be in release", nor about "debating". This topic is not even a debate. It's just a bunch of nerds flinging insults at each other until one sticks and never comes back. It is highly amusing.

[Mafic]

Sorry, have to laugh at this. There is nothing scientific about "should flying be in release", nor about "debating". This topic is not even a debate. It's just a bunch of nerds flinging insults at each other until one sticks and never comes back. It is highly amusing.

So in summary:

Analogies can't be used to discuss game features
Analogies can't be used to discuss scientific processes
Analogies can't be used because you say so?

Guess what? Too bad.

I am going to do it again. There is a reason why N. Ireland and the south united and they used analogies to bridge the gap and to reach peace. If that real world example didn't tickle the soul then here is another WoW example.

Blizzard tried to lock versatility gear behind RNG boxes in Ashran during WoD...but all that did was for some players that enjoy the game differently or play differently (eg specs that need versatility) to have to grind for hours while other players did not. That is punitive and there is no way to work towards a goal in a reasonable manner.

The rep grinds for Suramar to unlock the dungeons are very kind compared to the gargantuan rep grinds for Part 1 of patch finder.

Have a nice day.

[CheeseSandwich]

Again, you keep proving my point lol we are not even discussing flying, but analogy. Maybe this is why this topic is at over 300 pages. People keep repeating themselves....

....of course we are talking about analogies, because someone thought it was relevant to state that the use of them was useless. I can talk about flight all fucking day if you want*, I was responding to the allegation that the use of analogies was a fail argument. Just like I used 3 analogies in my last post to add context, I'll now equate the usefulness of analogies to this discussion.

It's like when someone can't understand how someone else playing the game could enjoy flight for its own sake, so the someone else uses an analogy to equate what losing it would feel like to someone who enjoys raids or pvp losing their access to that right away. Seeing it is obvious the vast majority of players want flight at max level like they want the ability to raid or pvp, why keep them in the dark, like so many farmed mushrooms?

So now the convo is back to flying, happy?

*edit : except now cuz I'm going to bed.

[Deleted]

So in summary:

Analogies can't be used to discuss game features
Analogies can't be used to discuss scientific processes
Analogies can't be used because you say so?

Guess what? Too bad.

I am going to do it again. There is a reason why N. Ireland and the south united and they used analogies to bridge the gap and to reach peace. If that real world example didn't tickle the soul then here is another WoW example.

Blizzard tried to lock versatility gear behind RNG boxes in Ashran during WoD...but all that did was for some players that enjoy the game differently or play differently (eg specs that need versatility) to have to grind for hours while other players did not. That is punitive and there is no way to work towards a goal in a reasonable manner.

The rep grinds for Suramar to unlock the dungeons are very kind compared to the gargantuan rep grinds for Part 1 of patch finder.

Have a nice day.

Lol calm your head. I think you have some countries mixed up too. You do know Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different countries? You know just like how France and Spain are? Hell we eve use a different currency to our southern brothers lol

Regarding analogy, I never said it couldn't be used. I said that it is usually a case for a weak argument. But I wouldn't expect someone that can't comprehend a basic sentence to gather that.

[wing5wong]

Imagine, if they gated all the dungeons behind rep how would players react? They are gating two dungeons in Suramar and players are already disgruntled. They plan on gating future dungeons behind more rep and "attunements"...players will be even more disgruntled.

Rep grinds for dungeons - great, jsut like heroics in BC, or adding in attunements on a smaller scale.

Flying is being gated behind massive rep grind.

No, its gated behind a rep grind. "Massive" difference

[Deleted]

....of course we are talking about analogies, because someone thought it was relevant to state that the use of them was useless. I can talk about flight all fucking day if you want, I was responding to the allegation that the use of analogies was a fail argument. Just like I used 3 analogies in my last post to add context, I'll now equate the usefulness of analogies to this discussion.

It's like when someone can't understand how someone else playing the game could enjoy flight for its own sake, so the someone else uses an analogy to equate what losing it would feel like to someone who enjoys raids or pvp losing their access to that right away. Seeing it is obvious the vast majority of players want flight at max level like they want the ability to raid or pvp, why keep them in the dark, like so many farmed mushrooms?

So now the convo is back to flying, happy?

Wow such a bad analogy. Again, you keep backing up my theory!!!!

[Mafic]

No it's not a sandbox and never was, but the options a player has have been decreasing

The closest it was to sandbox was vanilla and the vanilla maps were pretty open ended for exploration. Current maps of Legion are maze like and simply unfun and it doesn't help they are tiny. But they are tiny because they designed them this way for ground and pound game play.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol calm your head. I think you have some countries mixed up too. You do know Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two different countries? You know just like how France and Spain are? Hell we eve use a different currency to our southern brothers lol

Regarding analogy, I never said it couldn't be used. I said that it is usually a case for a weak argument. But I wouldn't expect someone that can't comprehend a basic sentence to gather that.

Analogies have never been weak argumentation...there is a reason why analogs models are common ways to express ideas to a simpler audience. You simply call it weak because it undermines your entire premise when presented with convincing analogies.

Too bad that you fail to acknowledge that patch finder has more grindy rep than Suramar dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree, Saying when its available would be a good thing, but the compromise isnt lop sided tho you want flying Blizz dont and want you to play the game, so they meet half way they will give you flying in exchange for you playing the game a bit. Its a fair compromise its just the we want flying crowds unreasonable we want flying at launch no ifs no buts thats unreasonable.

They are forcing players to play a certain way. It always backfires as we have seen with WoD.

1. Trying to remove flying
2. RNG boxes for versatility in Ashran
3. Legendary gated behind shipyard

[Connll]

You consider several months to obtain everything a long time?

Yes.

I also took the liberty of fixing your question for you.

[CheeseSandwich]

Wow such a bad analogy. Again, you keep backing up my theory!!!!

Nope. Your theory is rubbish. Which of the 3 was a bad analogy? Because the other 2 must of been good analogies if you didn't notice them.

[wing5wong]

The closest it was to sandbox was vanilla and the vanilla maps were pretty open ended for exploration. Current maps of Legion are maze like and simply unfun and it doesn't help they are tiny. But they are tiny because they designed them this way for ground and pound game play.

Draw a picture on the map of what is maze like.
At most you have to go up some hills?

- - - Updated - - -

Yes.

I also took the liberty of fixing your question for you.

Yea good one. 4 week grind, damn, so intense

- - - Updated - - -

3. Legendary gated behind shipyard

What... you had difficulty with this?

[Deleted]

- - - Updated - - -



Analogies have never been weak argumentation...there is a reason why analogs models are common ways to express ideas to a simpler audience. You simply call it weak because it undermines your entire premise when presented with convincing analogies.

Too bad that you fail to acknowledge that patch finder has more grindy rep than Suramar dungeons.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol OMG seriously??? I never said anything about flying or pathfinder or anything. Where are you getting this from LOL my point, analogies on forums are weak. I thought I made that clear but since you mentioned that I said something about pathfinder or Suramar, I do believe you have a problem reading. Maybe you should think about night classes.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope. Your theory is rubbish. Which of the 3 was a bad analogy? Because the other 2 must of been good analogies if you didn't notice them.

You are still talking about something not related to the topic which started with an analogy. Point still proven. That is my only point, that analogies are bad because they derail topics and are most commonly weak (never say never because you will eventually find a diamond amongst shit if you dig enough).

[m2geek]

TBH I don't care if its not in immediately, adding it in later suits me fine. I got my Pathfinder Achieve so all ready to go.

[CheeseSandwich]

You are still talking about something not related to the topic which started with an analogy. Point still proven. That is my only point, that analogies are bad because they derail topics and are most commonly weak (never say never because you will eventually find a diamond amongst shit if you dig enough).

They never derailed the thread until someone comes in and says something ridiculous like "analogies derail threads!" then uses the logical responses that such an absurd statement deserves as proof of their absurd statement.

[Axphism]

Why are you guys arguing this guys point of view on analogies? Who cares what he thinks about them? Just move on.

[azurrei]

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10811

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10634/d...refiends-armor

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11098/to-skettis

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11096/threat-from-above

Just a few examples of my above post. I would suggest that the zones of Storm Peaks, Ice Crown, Deepholme, Uldum and Twilight Highlands were all designed specifically with flight in mind. Imagine doing the Thorim quests in SP or the Harrison Jones quests in Uldum without a flying mount,I'm not sure either would be possible but both quest chains were pretty epic!

Exactly... a VERY large contingent of WoW players love flying. Why Blizzard doesn't embrace this is beyond me - how about a happy medium...they like to make no fly zones but how about entire zones that REQUIRE flying? Why not have half of a new expansion as a fly zone and the other half no fly zone - design the content TO BE ENJOYABLE/RELEVANT in both types of environments? But no, they would rather piss off a huge portion of their playerbase because they are on some hype bandwagon that flying in an MMO is all of a sudden somehow evil and ruins the game...it is ridiculous.

[Connll]

Yea good one. 4 week grind, damn, so intense

Good one indeed, as the FIRST major patch will arrive at least 3-4 months after launch, with a similar interval between the next one and the last.

Do me a favor, will ya? When next time you try to lie, put some effort in it.

[Axphism]

Exactly... a VERY large contingent of WoW players love flying. Why Blizzard doesn't embrace this is beyond me - how about a happy medium...they like to make no fly zones but how about entire zones that REQUIRE flying? Why not have half of a new expansion as a fly zone and the other half no fly zone - design the content TO BE ENJOYABLE/RELEVANT in both types of environments? But no, they would rather piss off a huge portion of their playerbase because they are on some hype bandwagon that flying in an MMO is all of a sudden somehow evil and ruins the game...it is ridiculous.

Because if they tried to cater to everyone, expansions would take 10x longer to come out. For example, I would hate a zone that would REQUIRE flying, but I also dislike the idea of a zone that wouldn't ever let me fly. I want to be able to choose. Now, according to your model, they would have to put in three types of zones:

1. You can not fly here.
2. You MUST fly here.
3. You can fly here, or not, it's up to you.

Now start applying that model to almost every aspect of the game. It's probably not a great idea.

[Mafic]

They never derailed the thread until someone comes in and says something ridiculous like "analogies derail threads!" then uses the logical responses that such an absurd statement deserves as proof of their absurd statement.

And saying an certain argument is weak when they present no argument. No argument is the weakest form of argumentation.

[Axphism]

Good one indeed, as the FIRST major patch will arrive at least 3-4 months after launch, with a similar interval between the next one and the last.

Do me a favor, will ya? When next time you try to lie, put some effort in it.

Woah, this guy has a crystal ball and can see into the future! Why are you wasting your time on MMOC with those abilities?