[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Dragon Claws]

I think SEF is fine as is. I admit I think the early alpha was a lot better, this one shows some promise. I like how I have complete control over it, and can draw them in focusfire.

[Ustabil]

Controll ? The only controll you have is focring them on ST. During questing i noticed they just fuck off so many times and then u have the bugs where they just auto attack and dont copy a single spell you cast. If they want us to have some sort of Offensive CD give us TeB back or make Xuen baseline(something i really dont get why they havent done allready. I mean Xuen such a big part of the class fantasy, yet the only abillity with any connection to him is a talent). Il even take the old SEF even if they make the clones not last forever.

[v1perz53]

Eh, definitely not a fan of Xuen baseline, I don't think any class's damage CD should rely on a pet entirely, it can lead to a lot of problems as Warlocks and Shamans have been saying for legion alpha/beta. And that thing is barely useable in PvP, it just goes off breaking all CC. Still do love Xuen tho, but I would be very upset if it was our only CD. I do agree that SEF is clunky and awful though, especially from a PvP perspective. As others have said, all it takes is a mage using one Frost Nova after you pop your damage CD to make you actively be doing less damage than you were before after using a CD. Otherwise, I do like the 2 charge 1.5 min aspect.

Which is my biggest problem with Serenity. I really like the new direction they took serenity (damage buff, half CD on abilities, and no chi cost) but it just has too many downsides compared to SEF for it to be useful in anything but arena. Only one charge vs SEF's 2, 10 sec duration vs 15 for SEF, and most damning, no AoE integration with SCK like SEF does. Probably will be fights where Serenity is mathematically better, but I think it needs a little something to make it closer to SEF's advantages.

And please remove SCK tab targetting BS. Just make it something like increased damage based on the number of times you've triggered mastery in the past 10 seconds or something, literally anything to make me not have to tab TP to AoE.

[Therris]

It does seem like that since Bab's single target spell list is longer. However its a trap!
Tiger palm/BoK do very small parts of our dps. Chi wave/eye of the tiger are also a very small part. On the other hand, FoF/SotW/WDP add up to very large amounts of our damage. With now even chi orbit doing AoE I'm concerned most of our damage is Cleave/AoE. If things stand like this, we might be worthless for single targe+gods at AOE again.

Oh really? Well how bad are we saying our single target damage is here? From what I've seen in past updates it was fine and our cleave was even better. So your saying things have changed?

So we are back to our niche for melee?

That just depends on tuning, and moreso on fight design. Without anything confusing like CX/SEF interworking, WW should be easier to tune for both single target and cleave/AOE.

Yes it does, honestly I'm not to concerned about our damage. In previous incarnations of Wind Walker we've always had decent single target and we still have awhile for beta tunning to be done for our damage. Numbers shouldn't be a concern at this point

Chi Orbit now deals AOE damage in the new build.

I think it's better, but it would still be best if the ability didn't exist al all. I guess this is the best we could hope for.

Its better. But I 100% agree with you I wish it didn't exist...it doesn't fit Wind Walkers fantasy at all...its not even fun, you have zero control over it....its a bad spell design. Tbh something this weak shouldn't be at the bottom of our talent tree either. Like honestly...a really bad passive?

Dont get why Whirling Dragon Punch is not baseline. It is such cool looking animation and feels so fun to use

Agreed...like it fits our class so well, it fits our class fantasy better then a majority of the freaking spells we HAVE

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The more i play my WW on beta, the more pissed i get at the terrible SEF. Granted i didnt like SEF to much at the start when i started to raid on my WW but holy fuck. The current one is enough to ruin the class for me. Srsly dont hope it goes live like this. Heck even the early alpha version was better. Acctually just replacing it with TeB would be better, that way we might have a tier where WW can be tuned decently.

It also feels terrible doing dungeons wihtout RJW. RJW kinda also replaces BoK when you take it cause its more dmg/chi wich is nice. My current build is RJW + WDP. Makes our AoE more than competive enough on trash without using SEF. And can therefore save SEF for boss and be competive on boss dmg as well.

I don't understand why people didn't like SEF in the past, and I don't get why they don't like it now. The only thing I don't like about it is its a CD. Which is just a minor problem because I loved using it in the outside world

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Eh, definitely not a fan of Xuen baseline, I don't think any class's damage CD should rely on a pet entirely, it can lead to a lot of problems as Warlocks and Shamans have been saying for legion alpha/beta. And that thing is barely useable in PvP, it just goes off breaking all CC. Still do love Xuen tho, but I would be very upset if it was our only CD. I do agree that SEF is clunky and awful though, especially from a PvP perspective. As others have said, all it takes is a mage using one Frost Nova after you pop your damage CD to make you actively be doing less damage than you were before after using a CD. Otherwise, I do like the 2 charge 1.5 min aspect.

Which is my biggest problem with Serenity. I really like the new direction they took serenity (damage buff, half CD on abilities, and no chi cost) but it just has too many downsides compared to SEF for it to be useful in anything but arena. Only one charge vs SEF's 2, 10 sec duration vs 15 for SEF, and most damning, no AoE integration with SCK like SEF does. Probably will be fights where Serenity is mathematically better, but I think it needs a little something to make it closer to SEF's advantages.

And please remove SCK tab targetting BS. Just make it something like increased damage based on the number of times you've triggered mastery in the past 10 seconds or something, literally anything to make me not have to tab TP to AoE.

I think they should make Serenity baseline, 2 charges as well. Same duration and move SEF to the talent tree

[Lucrece]

Eh, definitely not a fan of Xuen baseline, I don't think any class's damage CD should rely on a pet entirely, it can lead to a lot of problems as Warlocks and Shamans have been saying for legion alpha/beta. And that thing is barely useable in PvP, it just goes off breaking all CC. Still do love Xuen tho, but I would be very upset if it was our only CD. I do agree that SEF is clunky and awful though, especially from a PvP perspective. As others have said, all it takes is a mage using one Frost Nova after you pop your damage CD to make you actively be doing less damage than you were before after using a CD. Otherwise, I do like the 2 charge 1.5 min aspect.

Which is my biggest problem with Serenity. I really like the new direction they took serenity (damage buff, half CD on abilities, and no chi cost) but it just has too many downsides compared to SEF for it to be useful in anything but arena. Only one charge vs SEF's 2, 10 sec duration vs 15 for SEF, and most damning, no AoE integration with SCK like SEF does. Probably will be fights where Serenity is mathematically better, but I think it needs a little something to make it closer to SEF's advantages.

And please remove SCK tab targetting BS. Just make it something like increased damage based on the number of times you've triggered mastery in the past 10 seconds or something, literally anything to make me not have to tab TP to AoE.

Fire Elemental totem has been a core shaman cd and has never been a problem, it's actually one of the strongest cd's we've had despite Ascendance.

Pets are not inherently bad so long as they're tuned appropriately and the AI is polished.

[Jaigar]

I was excited about WW providing a unique buff with the legendary ring (March of the Legion) increasing movement speed for a raid, but from what I understand, they are changing movement speed in Legion so it no longer stacks and only provides the highest value.

The legendary items for WW though look really nice and look like they'll offer some good variety for rotation and such later on in the expansion.

I really wish Hurricane strikes was viable in live, but its replacement, WDP, seems better and fun to use, so I'll take it. I guess it only took them a full expansion to fix it..

[Deleted]

The problem is, that even when WDP is the best designed and looking spell we got this exp, it's still a talent choice, and I would have it if I was force to use stupid Chi Orbit instead of this awesome spell. It should have been made into baseline spell.

Also Xuen should be nontargetable. Just because it's the best looking companion in the game, there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to summon him out of combat just for the sake of looking cool.

[Ustabil]

The problem is, that even when WDP is the best designed and looking spell we got this exp, it's still a talent choice, and I would have it if I was force to use stupid Chi Orbit instead of this awesome spell. It should have been made into baseline spell.

Also Xuen should be nontargetable. Just because it's the best looking companion in the game, there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to summon him out of combat just for the sake of looking cool.

As prev posted. I really dont get why Xuen cant work like the shamans Elemental CD's and be baseline. Xuen was the main reason i leveled a monk in the first place. Also the Fist of Fury Trait should have xuens jumpin on the targets instead of those lame ass SEF clones. Kinda feels like they are forcing this SEF fantasy on us when they could easly just take some insperation from Xuen. I mean a Fucking Lightning Tiger is way cooler than some people with kegs on their back.

Would prob make more people try out the class, ww monk is the least played spec in the game. But from talking to others WW ive seen while playing beta, it seems that this version of WW is more liked among the casual and non raiders and thats prob what they are going for.

[TrollShaman]

the tab targeting to SCK is probably the only new thing that'll be casual-unfriendly.

[Babylonius]

the tab targeting to SCK is probably the only new thing that'll be casual-unfriendly.

There are a few other small traps that people may get caught in, but they could be resolved with tuning or small tweaks, so not worth mentioning yet.

[Lucrece]

When are they gonna fix our class hall campaign ;(

[Lockheartx]

When are they gonna fix our class hall campaign ;(

If you are referring to the "Ziro to Hero" questline where you have to release the troll from the cage then it looks like the fixed it in most recent build. I had to abandon the quest and repick it back up in which it let me release the guy, but the boss didn't spawn. Abandoned and picked it back up but the guy I needed to rescue didn't go back in the cage so while the boss did eventually spawn I didn't get the rescue credit. Finally I zoned out, abandoned, came back and repicked it up and everything worked fine.

If there is another part that is bugged I'll be a sad panda again.

**Edit** Apparently I may have spoken too soon as for me it seems "Stolen Knowledge" may be bugged as although I can already get over the gates due to having a Grapple Launcher, it's not letting me taste the brew. Saw I have to obtain a Stormforged Grapple launcher and after killing various mobs, returning to the site it tells me to get one, and did the abandoned/restart thing. Either I'm missing it completely or since I already did the quest for the Grapple launcher previously it's not recognizing it or not letting me see another one to loot.

[Deleted]

Also the Fist of Fury Trait should have xuens jumpin on the targets instead of those lame ass SEF clones. Kinda feels like they are forcing this SEF fantasy on us when they could easly just take some insperation from Xuen. I mean a Fucking Lightning Tiger is way cooler than some people with kegs on their back.

That's actually a great idea.

[Guhnz]

Prob a stupid question, but since haste is going to play an important role in WW monk, will it be a factor like when they came out in MoP where you hit a threshold that works for you (I remember fiddling between hitting 4000-4500 haste vs all haste of around 7500, just as example) or will we want to gobble all of the haste up that we can?

Again, please don't crucify me.

[Babylonius]

Prob a stupid question, but since haste is going to play an important role in WW monk, will it be a factor like when they came out in MoP where you hit a threshold that works for you (I remember fiddling between hitting 4000-4500 haste vs all haste of around 7500, just as example) or will we want to gobble all of the haste up that we can?

Again, please don't crucify me.

There will be a point that haste can be too much, but it's tough to say whether it will be a "personal preference" stopping point before we hit the mathematical stopping point.

[pandanaconda]

On live, %haste translates into energy which then translates either in just extra blackoutkicks, RJW or chiexplosion casts. Depending on the fight this can be more or less valuable.

In legion, haste affects cooldowns, so 30% haste means 30% more energy AND exactly 30% more possible maximum casts of fists of fury, RSK, WDP... Now not only you get more ressources, but you spend it on what you wish to spend it on.

Only difference: the more haste you get, the clumsier it gets.
On live, as long as you're not GCD capped, extra energy will be spent the same.
In legion, the more haste you get, the harder it gets to press RSK, FOF, WDP, SotW and others exactly on cooldown sonce you sometime need to jab in between these. So as you'll get more haste, rotation will at times feel harder to stick too. Think of enhance AoE and haste: as you get haste, it becomes very hard to keep all of lava lash, stormstrike AND fire nova on cooldown.


We won't sim too much of this before we know most of tuning is a bit done but Hinalover is allready working hard.
It will be very hard to do very good sims and to represent player skill in haste management but I believe that allthough we won't get softcaps (specific values at which haste quite suddenly would lose value), diminishing returns on haste's weight will be due to more than just stacking that stat

[Krazzorx]

One big difference I find in our aoe niche compared to live cleave niche is burst aoe is far, far more common than sustained cleave in raids.

And our aoe doesn't have much set up. SEF gives you plenty of SCK stacks in 2 gcds. Even 1 BoK or TP may be enough. That's very small setup time.

Also to be noted from a tuning standpoint, enh's issue was more blizzard philosophy than anything. That may have changed since WoD. (As class niches didn't exist in MoP as heavily as WoD). For WW though in WoD, our cleave and single target attacks were one and the same. Not so in Legion. So they can tune out single target independently of AoE. Unlike live. They can just nerf SCK and our single target will remain as is.

(Also to be noted is there's a bunch of specs with insane aoe. So it's not like with WoD where we had a very unique niche, we are not alone this time. Could help with single target tuning.)

In addition, while mechanically you can draw a comparison between enh shaman aoe and Legion WW aoe, it is not true that every spec with great aoe has bad single target. See: Warrior and Bladestorm.

So we are not doomed, even if WoD's niche philosophy continues, to bad single target because we have good aoe.

[v1perz53]

A lot of people say that SEF is the answer to our AoE issues, but honestly, SEF is also our single target CD, and how often in a raid situation do you want to blow your main ST damage CD during a mass AoE phase? Seems like a huge waste. In all likelihood you will be popping SEF on the pull with lust (and honestly might get more mileage out of your CDs if you popped the second charge right after when lust was still up), leaving at most one charge left for a singular AoE phase, after which you can only effectively AoE every 1.5 minutes as SEF recharges while giving up any ability to ST burst. AoE does generally come in bursts in raid fights, but even in the unlikely event that it is a whole 1.5 min separated between AoEs, that eliminates all non-talent ST DPS CDs.\

So the reality is that you will likely be tab targetting a LOT to get correct use out of SCK, and it is definitely a reasonable complaint towards the class if that is not something you want to be doing.

[Foncy]

A lot of people say that SEF is the answer to our AoE issues, but honestly, SEF is also our single target CD, and how often in a raid situation do you want to blow your main ST damage CD during a mass AoE phase? Seems like a huge waste. In all likelihood you will be popping SEF on the pull with lust (and honestly might get more mileage out of your CDs if you popped the second charge right after when lust was still up), leaving at most one charge left for a singular AoE phase, after which you can only effectively AoE every 1.5 minutes as SEF recharges while giving up any ability to ST burst. AoE does generally come in bursts in raid fights, but even in the unlikely event that it is a whole 1.5 min separated between AoEs, that eliminates all non-talent ST DPS CDs.\

So the reality is that you will likely be tab targetting a LOT to get correct use out of SCK, and it is definitely a reasonable complaint towards the class if that is not something you want to be doing.

You have 2 charges of it. Using it on pull and storing a charge for AoE will be the expected trend. Using two charges of SEF back to back won't be worth it, as yes you'd still have Bloodlust up but waiting for a second rotation of trinkets/procs, as well as a 2nd Energizing Elixir would be more beneficial. Also the intent of Blizzard is to make Serenity the desirable pure Single Target talent choice.

[George Costanza]

I am not sure if the talents added in the last build has been implented for the other two monk specs.