[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Deleted]

I have a different perception on this, i find beta demonology absolutely boring and unable to perform outside the rotation, where on live it is a very versatile and free gameplay style... still testing it, but if things remain this way(and actually it is quiet sure they'll be) i am going to try destruction and hope it taste a little better...

if you find demo on live to be versatile and free gameplay then i think we have very different definitions of what versatile and free gameplay means, demo on live has to be the most confined, constricting and clunky gameplay ive ever experienced but ofc that is just my opinion, we are ofc allowed to mean different things.

[Baconeggcheese]

I think you're both saying the same thing and just attributing different positive / negatives to the same characteristics.

Demo in legion is very intuitive for at least single target, the complexity comes from talent choices more than game play choices.

Demo in wod is a large priority list of rules for situations that's hard to learn and easy to master.

[wooters]

legion demo is an endless circle doing the same rotation and things no matter what is in front of you. where are the opportunities for a player to separate him from the beginner? apart from not messing up your rotation there basically isn`t any. its an original..but boring and confined spec. If there only had been windows where the player could have some intricate choices for what to do next..this demo would potentially be great

[Deleted]

I think you're both saying the same thing and just attributing different positive / negatives to the same characteristics.

Demo in legion is very intuitive for at least single target, the complexity comes from talent choices more than game play choices.

Demo in wod is a large priority list of rules for situations that's hard to learn and easy to master.

i can definately agree that if you're new to the class an pick demo in wod with rudimentary knowledge about the class then you're in for a world of hurt, i think most of us can agree that demo in legion is everything demo in wod is not, legion demo is intuitive but rigid, where wod demon is unintuitive but not as rigid.

[Deleted]

It would be a nice change of pace I think if the temporary pets (SDS/WI) didn't have such a short duration and maybe put Wild Imps back to X casts modified by haste or maybe a crit gives a free bolt.

I'm not into beta but it doesn't look like we are the generals we are suppost to be when playing demo.

[Deleted]

I'm worried about Demo not being able to do much to a new target since target switching isn't good atm for a pet class. Same as the ramp up time for adds, if Thal'Kiel's is on CD then you've little to no burst

[SxLongshadow]

I'm worried about Demo not being able to do much to a new target since target switching isn't good atm for a pet class. Same as the ramp up time for adds, if Thal'Kiel's is on CD then you've little to no burst

Implosion is your burst, HoG having no CD and you always wanting/generating shards means you should have shards handy and ready for situations where you have new adds coming out. HoG>Implosion or HoG>DE>Let imps cast a few times>Implosion

implosion offers us that "burst" while Thalk's is on CD and is by far the best option for single target damage

e: it won't let me post my image but Implosion pulls ahead for all ST encounters over Improved Stalkers so you will always have Implosion meaning burst on new targets is easy to come by for Demo.

Starting with 0% haste and going to 40% haste increments of 5% we can see for single target Implosion is definitely winning out (this is including our top end relics we'd want to play with for +51 ilvl per relic) gives us 2 additional Ranks of Prowest (10% additional bonus total to DE for 60% bonus haste/health) and 1 rank of Infernal Furnace for 40% bonus to Imp firebolt damage.

Basically don't worry about our burst in that kind of situation Demo has it covered.

[Deleted]

It would be a nice change of pace I think if the temporary pets (SDS/WI) didn't have such a short duration and maybe put Wild Imps back to X casts modified by haste or maybe a crit gives a free bolt.

I'm not into beta but it doesn't look like we are the generals we are suppost to be when playing demo.

the target switching wouldnt be such an issue if they hadnt neutered implosion coz you could just target the add(s), push implosion, deal tons of dmg and start your rotation again without having to worry about the pet's target switching, now you're horrible dependent on it coz implosion isnt really worth the use on ST anymore and just barely(atleast thats how it feels sometimes) for aoe.

- - - Updated - - -

Implosion is your burst, HoG having no CD and you always wanting/generating shards means you should have shards handy and ready for situations where you have new adds coming out. HoG>Implosion or HoG>DE>Let imps cast a few times>Implosion

implosion offers us that "burst" while Thalk's is on CD and is by far the best option for single target damage

e: it won't let me post my image but Implosion pulls ahead for all ST encounters over Improved Stalkers so you will always have Implosion meaning burst on new targets is easy to come by for Demo.

Starting with 0% haste and going to 40% haste increments of 5% we can see for single target Implosion is definitely winning out (this is including our top end relics we'd want to play with for +51 ilvl per relic) gives us 2 additional Ranks of Prowest (10% additional bonus total to DE for 60% bonus haste/health) and 1 rank of Infernal Furnace for 40% bonus to Imp firebolt damage.

Basically don't worry about our burst in that kind of situation Demo has it covered.

that was definately true b4 implosion got a 40ish% nerf, i dont think it is now tho. it really depends how much dmg each of your wild imp's firebolts does, if your wild imp does more than 200% spellpower from its fire bolts then implosion wont be worth it at all for ST.

[Baconeggcheese]

the target switching wouldnt be such an issue if they hadnt neutered implosion coz you could just target the add(s), push implosion, deal tons of dmg and start your rotation again without having to worry about the pet's target switching, now you're horrible dependent on it coz implosion isnt really worth the use on ST anymore and just barely(atleast thats how it feels sometimes) for aoe.

Well, those imps aren't helping you by attacking the non-priority target. If you need to burst something down being able to do X% dmg x Y imps (likely 8-12) instantly immediately as the thing spawns isn't too shabby. Or even thalk's consumption -> implosion.

Its not the most amazing thing ever but its not nothing for what is effectively a dot spec.

[Deleted]

Well, those imps aren't helping you by attacking the non-priority target. If you need to burst something down being able to do X% dmg x Y imps (likely 8-12) instantly immediately as the thing spawns isn't too shabby. Or even thalk's consumption -> implosion.

Its not the most amazing thing ever but its not nothing for what is effectively a dot spec.

something is always better than nothing but the problem comes if each individual imp does more dmg to the add through fire bolt than through implosion coz then you're effectively hindering yourself dmgwise. ofc this is when you'd prefer team players than dmgwhores lol.

[Baconeggcheese]

something is always better than nothing but the problem comes if each individual imp does more dmg to the add through fire bolt than through implosion coz then you're effectively hindering yourself dmgwise. ofc this is when you'd prefer team players than dmgwhores lol.

The imps that are already out have no way to swap to the target you need to swap to though, so how much dmg they'd potentially do is moot unless you can't afford to lose the dmg on that add for the priority swap.

Using mythic archie for instance, the second a doomfire / deathcaller / infernal / void star / source spawns the damage those imps are doing to archie isn't important. What's important is blowing up that add ASAP. Having that on demand burst / target swap that could also aoe is extremely useful in those situations.

[Deleted]

The imps that are already out have no way to swap to the target you need to swap to though, so how much dmg they'd potentially do is moot unless you can't afford to lose the dmg on that add for the priority swap.

ah yeah, you're right about that.

[Deleted]

Hello fellow warlocks, I haven't been keeping too up to date with this thread for a while, so please if you will, what does Demo offer than destro and aff can't? And how will it be at the start of raiding?

I know tuning hasn't begun so the question isn't about numbers, but more about mechanics.

Is destruction simply still the best add/priority target spec?

Appreciate any responses/opinions and looking forward to hearing how you all think the spec will play out.

[Gaidax]

Hello fellow warlocks, I haven't been keeping too up to date with this thread for a while, so please if you will, what does Demo offer than destro and aff can't? And how will it be at the start of raiding?

I know tuning hasn't begun so the question isn't about numbers, but more about mechanics.

1. Nothing
2. Shit

And I am talking mechanically, if they overtune it to high heaven then it will be workable.

Destruction is leaps and bounds ahead in regards to priority add switching, i'd say it's even better than in live now with buffed Havoc and Shadowburn.
Affliction is still better than Demo at that.

Demo - absolutely terrible at switching, if add pops you either pray you have Artifact power off CD and army of demons up, or you do no damage to if first 5-10 seconds.

[Baconeggcheese]

Hello fellow warlocks, I haven't been keeping too up to date with this thread for a while, so please if you will, what does Demo offer than destro and aff can't? And how will it be at the start of raiding?

It's a dot spec where your dots are mostly ST and require resources that you get a ton of. Imagine affliction except you have to spam filler to cast any dots besides doom.

Tuning has already begun btw, there's just still plenty of time for things to continue changing as we go so current tuning really doesn't matter outside of maybe getting an idea of damage ratios.

[SxLongshadow]

that was definately true b4 implosion got a 40ish% nerf, i dont think it is now tho. it really depends how much dmg each of your wild imp's firebolts does, if your wild imp does more than 200% spellpower from its fire bolts then implosion wont be worth it at all for ST.

It's actually still true, if I could post the image or link to the graph it would show that Implosion+Imps over the course of their life (and during partial cast of Firebolt you use Implosion, or after casting new HoG imploding either way) you still net an overall DPS increase even with sub-optimal play of Implosion+Imps by casting Implosion early (have yet to determine the cut off for that damage vs Imp Stalkers). Wild Imps pre-IF deal 165% SP at 25%+ haste for us with 2 SP relics which is 35% lower than Implosion still. With IF however imps are doing 231% SP at 25% haste however Implosion does not take away from Imps damage during their life. It can only add to it if played correctly thus it has 0 weaknesses on ST and with sub-optimal (read as cutting Imp duration by 3.5s early) you don't lose DPS till 40% haste.

[Deleted]

It's a shame because demo is more fun (or at least different) but it's shaping up to be awful, it's just too crippled by it's ludicrously long rampup times and the fact that the secondary pets are dumb fire and forget that won't switch

It's got allthe problems of affliction ie a dot spec, but even worse

Affliction is affliction

I;m afraid destruction is shaping up to be the "best" simply because of it's burst/cleave/aoe

I think it's clunky but it's strong, Ant burst spec will hold an inherent advantage, because there are only so many ways to do boss encounters, and som6yeof the main ways to make them "interesting" are burn phases, kill-that-add-quick phases, etc

A spec with on-demand high burst or even better high-burst-cleave, will always have the advantage. It's why mages and hunters tend to do well, particularly hunters

Destruction with Havoc for cleave and Shadowburn for movement fights plus high burst and good aoe, it's a no brainer as things stand

[Avikur]

It's a shame Demo hasn't got an army of the dead type spell to use at the start to get our DPS off the ground, something on a 3 min cooldown that gives you 2 felstalkers and 5 imps.

Fun spec but terrible ramp up time and pets don't last long enough imo, by the time you have them out and empower them they're half way through their duration, i'd like them to last a bit longer personally

[janzy]

Gotta hold off on the sky is falling for demo spec with the ramp up time. Still a lot of tuning to be done. Maybe bursting down 1 add won't necessarily be our niche but we will have strong AoE and strong single target sustained.

[volrat]

Aside the fact that numbers are actually not well tuned, i think the greatest problems of the new demonology spec is the fact that it can be played only in 1 way, all the others are not only a dps loss, they all are absolutely wrong from any prespective, even the very casual solo player will have great problems to achieve anything if he takes the wrong talents or try to perform a different approach...

It is really all about the same talents for, and the same 2 rotations for every situation ( ST/ AoE/ No cleave rotation aviable ).

It becomes boring, gameplay wise, very quickly, and doesn't seem its mechanics can be easily tuned by this PoV.

I want to point another thing that bothers me from the beginning of this "new" version of demonology, the fact that the "summoner" role of the spec is essentially based on imps, lot of them, and the same demons we were summoning from years... if you look at a Demonology Live and one in beta, the only addition to the summoner list are the dreadstalkers and the beholder ( not a good choice to represent the "pinnacle" of demonic summoning, imho); you still have a FG, a lot of imps, same as live, visually. This is particularly hurting, given the great choice of new demons this specific exp offers, and marks the work of devs in regard of the demo spec (still, imho) as extremely lazy and boring, from any PoV...the spec actually has a straight way of playing, something other players may call "smooth gameplay", understandable and playable by anyone in few time, but has lost all its unique perks(mobility, a situational priority in casting, etc.) to gain very little, even visually and lorewise...

Not satisfied at all.