[Legion] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Isheria]

Well, good thing that Sigma said immediately after that, basically, slootbag was talking BS. He could have been a little bit clearer on the topic though.
Also, bad players are bad players, no matter what class they play. Regarding the reputation, well, sure, when you rely on PuGs. But then again: You won't progress very far anyways, i.e. you will have other problems than your class having a bad reputation.



yes, about too late into progression when you realize Disc is shit but you already invested thousands of artifact power in that spec.

You understood all that by the 5 words sentence "Disc will fill a healer role" that he just typed? Cause that sure as hell doesn't say that disc will do equal healing to all other healers, filling a healer role and performing at the same capacity as other specs are 2 entirely different things.

[Deleted]

You understood all that by the 5 words sentence "Disc will fill a healer role" that he just typed? Cause that sure as hell doesn't say that disc will do equal healing to all other healers, filling a healer role and performing at the same capacity as other specs are 2 entirely different things.

This is such a mess... But I recall somewhere @Sixthumbs typing out that mythic +6 or +8 was no real problem as long as players didn't fail, which is assumed at that level, if you fail you should be punished at that stage... I just don't want to be the healer as disc who when asked about my performance I have to pull up two separate sheets of HPS and DPS and try to somehow negotiate plussing them up. I was hoping we would be able to meet other healer's hps if we sacrificed our dps, and tune down our hps to bulk up our dps, but the dream seems to be failing before it starts.

I guess shadow is going to be my first spec. I'll bring up a resto or guardian druid as an extra to mess around with. Hope some updates shed some hope on disc's position as a proper complex but rewarding healer. Or maybe we're making a lot of fuss over nothing, despite still being able to perform well and do a proper healer's job.

[Gorsameth]

This is such a mess... But I recall somewhere @Sixthumbs typing out that mythic +6 or +8 was no real problem as long as players didn't fail, which is assumed at that level, if you fail you should be punished at that stage... I just don't want to be the healer as disc who when asked about my performance I have to pull up two separate sheets of HPS and DPS and try to somehow negotiate plussing them up. I was hoping we would be able to meet other healer's hps if we sacrificed our dps, and tune down our hps to bulk up our dps, but the dream seems to be failing before it starts.

I guess shadow is going to be my first spec. I'll bring up a resto or guardian druid as an extra to mess around with. Hope some updates shed some hope on disc's position as a proper complex but rewarding healer. Or maybe we're making a lot of fuss over nothing, despite still being able to perform well and do a proper healer's job.

(note the following is mostly from when I thought about this problem back in MoP for the Monk, the concept should still be fine tho).

The problem is the balance of damage and healing.
A 'Normal' healer will do negligible to no damage during a typical encounter. The idea that a 'healing though damage' healer will do meaningful damage means that healing being equal the Disc is the better choice. So much so that you will probably want to bring multiples.

The half damage/half healer that you get as a result requires a situation in which 4 healers is not enough but 5 healers is to low dps. This is such a small niche that it is not worth having an entire spec for.

You can fix it with something like a stance. one for healing that increases healing to a 'normal' level while nerfing dmg done into the ground and one for damage where you can compete with a full dps but do no healing.
That way a Disc can fill the gap of one fight needing 4 healers and another needing 5 but then why would you not always bring a Disc in your raid, and do you allow the spec to switch stance mid fight?

In the end the best way to make a fighty healer is probably to simply strip the damage. Have Smite hit for 100 and heal atonement targets for 20k (random numbers).

ps
Fixed healing instead of % dmg based is way better aswell because it allows for finer tuning and prevents stupid things during increase/decreased damage phases.
Like Monks healing going bonkers on Garalon because the 100% increased dmg meant 100% increased healing done.

[Totaltotemic]

So Disc's output is split between healing and DPS. It's not an even split, but this does mean that DPS added is not some abstract value comparable to movement, survival, or other cooldowns available to other healers.

This all means that comparing Disc HPS vs the other 5's HPS should result in Disc being lower to some degree because there is also DPS as it is part of the output, not part of side benefits.

What does this mean for us?

Dungeons

In dungeons, Disc is still "a healer" and should be able to clear Mythic easily. They would actually have to nerf the spec to the ground to stop this from happening, so no worries there.

When it comes to Mythic+ though, whether Disc is useful or not really depends on where the barriers to progressing to higher keystones lie. If it's DPS, then Disc is great. If it's healing, you might have to switch to Holy for the last 2 or 3 levels (and because of this I'll be spreadsheeting power gains and possibility of keeping a 2nd weapon up close in a little bit). There's also the possibility that the extra DPS lowers the healing requirement, thus balancing it out and allowing Disc to be "viable" here.

Long story short, we don't know yet what impact this has on Mythic+ except that it's probably a good idea to accept that you might have to be Holy sometimes.

Raids

Again, output concerns don't matter until Mythic. You can probably play Disc in Normal or Heroic and not even notice a difference in healing because at the end of the day if you do the mechanics marginally well, the bosses fall over and die.

For Mythic, things get weird. A fight that challenges the raid's maximum HPS would be horrible for Disc unless you could somehow bring an extra healer without losing too much DPS. If a fight challenges DPS only but for whatever reason there's a limit on how many healers you can drop (Gorefiend and Xhul'horac come to mind where you can't exactly drop to 3 or 2 healers on progression), then Disc is borderline mandatory.

Let's say that the default raid setup is 2 tanks, 4 healers, and 14 DPS. We have this spec that is split between DPS and HPS but has typical healer tools (raid cooldown, tank cooldown, life-saving stuff) and can modulate its DPS and healing split to whatever ratio is best, but at a cap of 90% healing and 10% DPS or, day, 50% healing and 50% DPS. Is this a useful thing to have in a raid, or would you rather have a healer that is 100% healing all of the time?

I think so, but this does mean the Disc player has to really understand what's going on and modulate the split optimally for the raid to succeed. It's not really mandatory, but it's not a downgrade from having another pure healer. Tuning this way prevents multiple Discs from ever really being a thing, but I think one is still valuable enough to want, but not harmful if your raid doesn't have.

[Yunzi]

One downside for some discs (including me) with how up-in-the-air the viability of Disc is is that I was *hoping* to have Shadow as my 2nd spec, as it looks really fun especially with Surrender to Madness. But now I may have to have Holy as my 2nd spec (with it's artifact weapon 80% of the progression of Disc's) with Shadow lagging back as the 3rd spec.

Here's hoping that Bliz tunes Discs to give us enough peace of mind for us to have Shadow as our off-spec.

[Totaltotemic]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Here's the numbers on what happens if you decide to try to keep an off-spec weapon up. The colorized columns are how many traits your off-spec weapon would be behind a fully-committed one if you choose to be behind 1 or 2 traits on your main spec weapon.

[Aleksej89]

I really hate disc as a spec, always have hated it.

But i find the decision to make Disc inferior a really bad and lame idea.

So they will be some kind of half-dps and half-healer type?
Could be interesting if they make it viable..... not sure how.

[Hayduke]

What about a a quick fix to make focus healing through atonement without having to switch to direct heals with shadowmend:

Power Word: Shield applies "improved atonement" which cause xxx increased healing through atonement

1.5x? 2x?

this would allow the priest to bring a single target up or with Rapture a nice healing cd without breaking the "deal damage to heal" that much

[Serpicoxl]

The ways things seem to be heading, I predict that healing priests will be asked to switch spec alot between Disc and Holy, especially during progress.

whenever a fight seems to be lacking in healing, one would have to go Holy, and vica versa when lacking dps.

One would have to have both weapons up too date. For some this would take the joy away, when asked to play something other than your preferd specc, be it holy or disc. One could argue this would make us more valuable to the raid team, but i fear us being the jack of all trades but the master of none.

Still, cant wait to try out disc.

[tachycardias]

I don't really see the remark of one commentator to be evidence that disc healing is bad. As far as I know slootbag is hardly a disc expert, much less a legion disc expert. Blizz has said disc will be the hardest healer spec. It may have lesser healing numbers than other specs on certain fights. Beyond this I think that extrapolating based on the current limited data and a popular (but not especially informed ) commentator is foolhardy.

[Gorsameth]

I don't really see the remark of one commentator to be evidence that disc healing is bad. As far as I know slootbag is hardly a disc expert, much less a legion disc expert. Blizz has said disc will be the hardest healer spec. It may have lesser healing numbers than other specs on certain fights. Beyond this I think that extrapolating based on the current limited data and a popular (but not especially informed ) commentator is foolhardy.

The problem is we saw this spec attempted before. It was called Mistweaver Monk and they threw it in the trash because it didn't work.

I have seen very little that makes me think they have it figured out this time.

I would love for Disc to work as advertised and for it to be competitive with other healers. I switched to a Monk in MoP for it and left at the end of it because the spec I liked did not exist anymore.

[Rilas13]

So I am in beta, I have tired most of the healing specs. Shaman Resto felt incredible. Once I got used to the flow of Disc I find I have less issues healing the group then I do as Holy. I have not done anything beyond Heroic yet, and that is a stark contrast. Up to this point it has felt very powerful. We do have a lot of great tools to keep people up. The only time someone has died in the past 5 dungeons is when the tank was being... overly enthusiastic, and even then only one person died.
I think Disc may be truely incredible raid healers, but that leaves room for our high end 5 man to fall to the wayside. We are inherently designed to be the most efficient when we don't have to be responsible for an individual life(tank) and can just focus on a rotation of damage and atonement.

I am going to spend the weekend with damage meters running and try some mythics if I can get groups for them. I think we will be viable, just not on the progression group maybe.

*Side note, if anyone is curious the dungeons I have done show me as having consistently about 10% of the dps for the run.

[Dsc]

They need to shitcan the "alll 3 specs viable" thing that came around with wrath. ( Ignore my name it was short for dscombobulate) back when Discipline was a PVP spec. (and yes, back when we had actual talent trees I would run a "hybrid" spec to goof around in farm content)

They keep cramming this shit of "dps to heal" down every healer's throat. It kinda sucks everytime they do it. (for years now)
Then they bitch about balancing, while one of the three specs usually sucks to compensate, or one more of the other healer classes sucks ass.
Yet they continue to cram a square peg into a round hole.

It's not going away, because it's their game yadda yadda. regardless it's stupid. Just like making Holy Power for pallys, and shaman and druids dps for mana/buffs.

[Melchey]

I don't really see the remark of one commentator to be evidence that disc healing is bad. As far as I know slootbag is hardly a disc expert, much less a legion disc expert. Blizz has said disc will be the hardest healer spec. It may have lesser healing numbers than other specs on certain fights. Beyond this I think that extrapolating based on the current limited data and a popular (but not especially informed ) commentator is foolhardy.

Has to do will 'well-known' streamers who are doing a developler Q&A hence pretty fucking reputable sources spewing bullshit like they know what they're talking about to the masses. It's the same as a CM stating the same information; you're going to get people really upset when you say shit like disc is bad because you're a reputable source/directly speaking to one. There's also plenty of data showing disc has been good if not strong so hearing stuff that says they shouldn't be strong raises a lot of flags for players.

They need to shitcan the "alll 3 specs viable" thing that came around with wrath. ( Ignore my name it was short for dscombobulate) back when Discipline was a PVP spec. (and yes, back when we had actual talent trees I would run a "hybrid" spec to goof around in farm content)

They keep cramming this shit of "dps to heal" down every healer's throat. It kinda sucks everytime they do it. (for years now)
Then they bitch about balancing, while one of the three specs usually sucks to compensate, or one more of the other healer classes sucks ass.
Yet they continue to cram a square peg into a round hole.

This reeks of bitterness and misinformation.

[Dsc]

They need to shitcan the "alll 3 specs viable" thing that came around with wrath. ( Ignore my name it was short for dscombobulate) back when Discipline was a PVP spec. (and yes, back when we had actual talent trees I would run a "hybrid" spec to goof around in farm content)

They keep cramming this shit of "dps to heal" down every healer's throat. It kinda sucks everytime they do it. (for years now)
Then they bitch about balancing, while one of the three specs usually sucks to compensate, or one more of the other healer classes sucks ass.
Yet they continue to cram a square peg into a round hole.

It's not going away, because it's their game yadda yadda. regardless it's stupid. Just like making Holy Power for pallys, and shaman and druids dps for mana/buffs.

This reeks of bitterness and misinformation.

exact the opposite. I just see it as a problem that has been rearing its head for the last 7 ish years.
I play both disc and holy, before my retirement had realm first HLK as disc, and was Duality's holy priest. (ended up in top 5? worldwide, thanks)

It was just a little observation from what I've seen in the beta across several classes, PS I main a priest very casually now. Say what you want they've not once gotten balancing near right, and I fear we'll see a repeat again. Square Peg, round Hole, blizz hardheadedness.

[Melchey]

exact the opposite. I just see it as a problem that has been rearing its head for the last 7 ish years.
I play both disc and holy, before my retirement had realm first HLK as disc, and was Duality's holy priest. (ended up in top 5? worldwide, thanks)

It was just a little observation from what I've seen in the beta across several classes, PS I main a priest very casually now. Say what you want they've not once gotten balancing near right, and I fear we'll see a repeat again. Square Peg, round Hole, blizz hardheadedness.

The making "all 3 specs viable" thing is pretty damn stupid to think it's why healer balance has been absolute shit for awhile.

Your whole argument about the "dps to heal" playstyle sucking is pretty flawed considering it's nothing to do with the concept but rather the balance of the spec it's put on. Do you think people really care about MW's dps now? DPS>Heal is really only broken if the dps and/or hps is competitive, which 100% they've failed in past attempts and are trying again.

We're also talking about there being a healer (or healers) sucking ass when there's six specs for four spots two of which requires optank+absorbs and op absorbs. Legion has removed nearly all absorbs and beacon is nerfed while everyone received tank/st healing buffs.

[Deleted]

Disc does looks fun and diffrent. But imo the mastery tooltip could be alot more clear and use Addictional instead of multiplier but still have the same scaling. Rather having mastery increase with 20% it would add 8% mastery. Just a small thing but still annoying.

[Saiyoran]

Does Share in the Light stack? Small question and not of much consequence, but if I were to Rapture and spam shields would the 15% shields stack on each other or just overwrite?

[Melchey]

Does Share in the Light stack? Small question and not of much consequence, but if I were to Rapture and spam shields would the 15% shields stack on each other or just overwrite?

It does not. It will overwrite itself everytime you cast PWS. A crit PWS share in the light can be replaced by a non-crit one xD

[ryan11d7]

So to people who have tested disc extensively in beta. What do you think the T100 talent will be most viable come legion? I think Purge will probably be our best bet. Shadow covenant just seems clunky and could cause some problems, maybe as a snap heal when people are almost dead. And Grace just seems like a quality of life and for someone who struggles with the dps to heal mechanic.

Also, What is your position on CoW in legion? Kind of seems like it makes 0 sense to keep CoW in legion as it kind of goes against the new mechanics of the class