Will we ever get raids like Karazhan again?

[Majestic12]

Karazhan was VERY challenging until the nerfs. The majority of the posters obviously didn't try it early TBC. Moroes was a wipefest, so was Maiden, Aran and Malchezaar. Don't spread misinformation just because you didn't play content when it was current.

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Quite crappy epic -.- just stop there, it's clear that you did not play in TBC at all, either that or your guild wasn't decent enough to do ssc in 5man HC gear (which you could in fact fully gear for from 5man hc's), but i already got that point from you calling Shade of Aran a hard boss
The difference between KZ epic loot and 5man hc loot was marginal at best, and you didn't really need t4 bonuses to do SSC.

Shade of Aran was quite difficult until the first nerf. My guild was stuck on him.

[barackohmama]

Nope. that's not how raids are made today. Here's how it's done today: Make 8-14 boss encounters. Design a huge instance with a theme color(green is a good one). Put the bosses in and add tons of boring and easy trash that the raid is supposed to aoe down. Done.

[zoefschildpad]

Karazhan was designed as a mage tower first and a raid dungeon second, and it shows. There are shortcuts and side paths, bosses were made for the rooms and not the other way around. Nowadays raids are designed as boss rooms connected by corridors, and though that helps with encounter design and probably speeds up production, things don't usually feel like they belong where they are, which just makes the whole thing seem silly. Most bosses just sit in their rooms, or stand because they don't usually get so much as a chair, and don't do anything. In Karazhan the huntsman was tending to the horses, Moroes held a dinner party for his spectral guests, Nightbane wasn't even on the balcony until he was summoned. The curator patrols the museum, which is his job, and the opera event fits in brilliantly.

I know it's hard and it might be much harder for more normal places than a crazy wizard tower, but it's so much nicer when a dungeon is something more than a building designed for bosses to fight raids in. Also some more color would be nice.

[Deleted]

Karazhan was VERY challenging until the nerfs. The majority of the posters obviously didn't try it early TBC. Moroes was a wipefest, so was Maiden, Aran and Malchezaar. Don't spread misinformation just because you didn't play content when it was current.

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Shade of Aran was quite difficult until the first nerf. My guild was stuck on him.

Karazhan was mostly faceroll even before the nerfs.
Posters like you where obviously in a shitty guild that couldn't get past Shade of Aran.
Don't spread misinformation just because you couldn't find a better guild to raid with.

For those of us who came fresh out of AQ40 farm / Naxx40 progress, the only bosses that were even remotely challenging were prenerf malchezaar and prenerf nightbane.

[Spiral Mage]

Yep, we've been getting raids like it ever since. Nostalgia =/= Reality.

For the record, my favorite raid was doing 10man Ulduar with my friends early on and later my guild.

[Deleted]

Karazhan wasn't faceroll, but it wasn't harder than, say, the ZG/ZA revamps, except for a few bosses (I hate you Netherspite). Even with low stuff, you could handled it easy if you knew what you were doing ; but a lot people were begginers at the time.

[Osmeric]

We'll get a raid almost exactly like Karazhan, when they recycle Karazhan.

[Majestic12]

Karazhan was mostly faceroll even before the nerfs.
Posters like you where obviously in a shitty guild that couldn't get past Shade of Aran.
Don't spread misinformation just because you couldn't find a better guild to raid with.

For those of us who came fresh out of AQ40 farm / Naxx40 progress, the only bosses that were even remotely challenging were prenerf malchezaar and prenerf nightbane.

Haha, then I don't believe you When nobody had gear, even Moroes was a challenge. The only thing we agree on in Malchezaar then.

FYI, my guild killed Kael and Vashj pre-nerf. It wasn't shitty by any shape or form in TBC. You're just being an elitist.

[Aggrophobic]

You pretty much nailed it as far as how I look at Kara.





Did you miss the part where he explained it in the very first sentence?

"Beautifully mysterious, aesthetically unique and decked out with flavour all over"

Your approach to this is kind of like:

Him: I love the flavor of Pepsi. Grabbing a cold can from the fridge and hearing the sound it makes when I pull the tab... I really enjoy that.

You: You're wrong. Pepsi doesn't have enough caffeine.

Lots of raids have been much better than Kara in every way and despite all the issues with WoD the raids were still great. Blizzard have been good when it comes to raid design in pretty mcuh every expantion. Theres nothing to worry about there.

I'd never want to see a new raid of the same design as Kara though. It was one of the weaker raids in WoWs history, after all.

[Woto]

cool lol hahahahahahahaha

[Lumineus]

We'll get a raid almost exactly like Karazhan, when they recycle Karazhan.

Except for the phased gates so you can't skip Attumen, Maiden, Illhoof, Aran, or Netherspite anymore. Can't have optional bosses if we want to preserve the world first race, after all!

[Nalorakk]

I updated the OP for all the people bickering about difficulty :]

[Radaney]

The Nightmare Raid is pretty mysterious, aesthetically unique and decked out with flavour all over.

Although tbh every raid for me personally is beautifully mysterious, aesthetically unique and decked out with flavour all over.

Obviously your nostalgia is never going to be satisfied.

[kary]

Don't crucify me for this, MMO-C, but I made decent money off opening that gate .... although it was generally unnecessary. That and having the urn.

Dolla Dolla Bill Y'all.

Best gold is free gold.

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The Nightmare Raid is pretty mysterious, aesthetically unique and decked out with flavour all over.

Although tbh every raid for me personally is beautifully mysterious, aesthetically unique and decked out with flavour all over.

Obviously your nostalgia is never going to be satisfied.

Yep. All WoW raids are beautiful for what they are. Most people tend to purposely ignore those things, though.

[alturic]

Karazhan was mostly faceroll even before the nerfs.
Posters like you where obviously in a shitty guild that couldn't get past Shade of Aran.
Don't spread misinformation just because you couldn't find a better guild to raid with.

For those of us who came fresh out of AQ40 farm / Naxx40 progress, the only bosses that were even remotely challenging were prenerf malchezaar and prenerf nightbane.

I was in a shitty guild where we had to cheese it. :-/ I don't remember how you bugged it, but I distinctly remember standing outside the door. Actually, just read it and apparently this was back in the day before bosses despawned? I find it hard to believe we killed him week after week by simply pulling him outside of his room...

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Nope. that's not how raids are made today. Here's how it's done today: Make 8-14 boss encounters. Design a huge instance with a theme color(green is a good one). Put the bosses in and add tons of boring and easy trash that the raid is supposed to aoe down. Done.

So true, and anyone who thinks raids were the same before MoP don't remember before MoP.

[Lumineus]

tons of boring and easy trash

Does that mean that older raids had boring and easy bosses? I mean, the Socrethar trash is pretty much just a breakdown of the Lurker Below encounter.

[Gilgameshh]

Lots of raids have been much better than Kara in every way and despite all the issues with WoD the raids were still great. Blizzard have been good when it comes to raid design in pretty mcuh every expantion. Theres nothing to worry about there.

I'd never want to see a new raid of the same design as Kara though. It was one of the weaker raids in WoWs history, after all.

It's really a matter of opinion, and my opinions are the complete opposite of yours.

I don't think Blizzard created any raid as well as Karazhan before or since its existence. The closest ones, for me, were Naxx 40 and Ulduar. Can't speak on HFC (although I heard it was pretty cool) but I didn't particularly enjoy Highmaul or BRF other than a few fights.

I'd love to see a new raid similar to that of Karazhan because I believe it's the best raid they've ever created. I've never had more fun while raiding.

That being said, I'd settle for any decent alternative/casual 10-man raids right now. It's too bad we won't have any.

[Axphism]

Woops too old.

[Mic_128]

Someone above made a great point in that Karazhan with its big "pointless" areas, side paths and tunnels and vertical progression through a tower felt like a real place, whereas raids now feel like the typical FPS tube levels with boss room after boss room. BRF and HFC do loosen this up a bit with their multiple paths and options, but LFR has simply destroyed the feeling that these places are anything but loot pinatas you charge through. You can't have mystery and meaning if it's trivial.

I think that's what really bugs me about most raids these days. They're supposed to be sprawling cities or evil lairs...so why are they nothing but a linear corridor? Or a minor branching path to a couple of dead-ends? Some raids help elevate that a little, but not much. One thing I loved about Ulduar was how we actually had to break in to the raid. ICC's wings helped a little, but even both raids and everything since, have been nothing but straight paths. Hell, LBRS, BRD also had that wonderful feel of actual places. Of actual cities and hideaways that we were invading (Perhaps BRD did the 'feels like a city' part a bit too much, though. WTB a mount)

Karazhan felt like a giant castle because it was. There were many winding paths that you could explore that you didn't need to and it was amazing. It's a bit of a symptom with many FPS's too. Impressive scenery and backgrounds, but it's still a linear path.

[Deleted]

Haha, then I don't believe you When nobody had gear, even Moroes was a challenge. The only thing we agree on in Malchezaar then.

FYI, my guild killed Kael and Vashj pre-nerf. It wasn't shitty by any shape or form in TBC. You're just being an elitist.

So you were stuck on Shade of Aran but you killed Vashj and Kael prenerf?
Yeah, i totally believe you, especially since there's only 1 guild worldwide that killed prenerf Vashj (method), but keep on dreaming man.