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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmirino View Post
    Those who have been playing Feral in a main progression raid and have finished Mythic, how did you earn your spot and not become overshadowed by Rogues, DKs, and other melee? How did you make yourself part of the group and earn your spot? What do Ferals bring in a group that makes them worth bringing? It seems like their playstyle is one dimensional in that it's best for ST and maybe cleave, so why bring them?
    every player thats not capable of playing their offspec asks to get benched during progression if things start to demand special capabilitis. whether its frost only mages, sub only/combat only rogues, bm only hunters or feral only druids. granted, hfc was bad for druid dps as you had to either select feral or balance due to the ring and balaned trumped feral on almost anything that mattered. but thats been like the first time you were forced into one of your speccs.

    yould have been much more viable to your raid if you were balance during progression and feral for farm in hfc.
    if you only want to play a melee specc you probably should have rolled something which allowed you to adopt to a fight with a second melee specc like... rogue/warrior/dk.

    druid dps players are really special regarding their refusual to accept that they have two dps speccs.
    Last edited by mmoc12739b337f; 2016-06-11 at 12:02 AM.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by kalomina View Post
    every player thats not capable of playing their offspec asks to get benched during progression if things start to demand special capabilitis. whether its frost only mages, sub only/combat only rogues, bm only hunters or feral only druids. granted, hfc was bad for druid dps as you had to either select feral or balance due to the ring and balaned trumped feral on almost anything that mattered. but thats been like the first time you were forced into one of your speccs.

    yould have been much more viable to your raid if you were balance during progression and feral for farm in hfc.
    if you only want to play a melee specc you probably should have rolled something which allowed you to adopt to a fight with a second melee specc like... rogue/warrior/dk.

    druid dps players are really special regarding their refusual to accept that they have two dps speccs.
    Where is it written that just because you have 3 specs you have to play more than one? And its not about not being capable of playing other specs, its about what you like to play. Last time i checked this was still a game and one should have fun and enjoy it. If you enjoy a certain class/spec then you have all the right to play that and nothing else if you dont want to. If the raid is stuck on a mythic boss its not stuck because ONE player is playing a spec that is not deemed good enough for the fight. Its always people not doing tactics right.
    I only play feral since wrath, always have, always will. I always told the guilds i joined that i only play feral and if they accept that fact about me and want me ill join.If not i wont. I was never benched, never replaced for a better spec because im a good player. And why im a good player? Because i enjoy the spec and always strive to do my best, perform at peak lvls of my class, do the dps, do the tactics.
    If you want to play FERAL, do it, be good, do your job and dont let anyone else tell you different if thats what you enjo to play.

  3. #63
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    I don't understand the obsessiveness about hybrid specs, why do you feel the need to play a feral druid when the original base design of your class was very restoration focused? If I wish to play a dps I play a mage or hunter, if I wish to play a tank I play a warrior, if I wish to play a healer I play well any healer because that was the way they were designed. Now I do understand the charm of a class being diverse, but a hybrid really shouldn't be perfect at anything rather you should have a defined role with the option of playing others to a less effective degree in case your group requires it, not be fighting for spots in what's clearly your secondary role because "I prefer this yadayada".

  4. #64
    Feral is not a hybrid spec, its a melee DPS spec. Where does it say that its a hybrid spec.Just because feral was a broken unplayable dps spec in vanilla that didnt work as a dps spec but more as a healing one you have that conception that its a hybrid that shouldnt be doing competitive dps, why????? Feral is a dps spec and as such it should do its job at delivering competitive dps. Why bother having a dps spec if it should be shit and not do well?
    If you are a feral your role is a melee dps damage dealer and not some hybrid whatever.
    Yes Druid as a class has its choices, you can be al tank, healer, ranged dps, melee dps but the specs whichever you choose they are what they are, they are not hybrids and as such they should be competitive.
    Last edited by gardner; 2016-06-11 at 12:47 AM.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    Are you sure? They're not bleed effects.
    I heard that they are considering adding DoTs to the equation so that Lunar Inspiration can make an impact, not sure if they will go through with it. Even if they do, the DoTs I mentioned are so sparse and inconsistent, might not even make that much of a difference - but sets up for some nice burst.

    Edit: confirmed that Ashamane's Frenzy itself is a bleed; while the other two golden artifact traits are DoTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    I don't see any such legendary.
    It is being considered and was there in the initial testing - they might have scrapped it (which is unfortunate, I was excited about the item). The new feet (predatory x 3) and +100 max energy for cat is still pretty amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    The Thrash stacking legendary is Guardian-only; the bonus damage and range is for both.
    That's unfortunate, it would've helped our AoE situation immensely. Perhaps they'll consider it to add to Feral as well.

    ---
    Doesn't change the general idea though that while nothing significant about the cat changed, and the artifact is meh; the itemization moving forward is neat. None of the other classes, really, get something as prolific - but all is subject to change - other than warriors getting sudden death on an item now.

    By the looks of it, we still will most likely do incredible ST damage and meh AoE; hopefully there are fights that are tuned towards that and not just HFC style - adds everywhere.
    Last edited by Arthael; 2016-06-11 at 07:10 AM.

  6. #66
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gardner View Post
    Feral is not a hybrid spec, its a melee DPS spec. Where does it say that its a hybrid spec.Just because feral was a broken unplayable dps spec in vanilla that didnt work as a dps spec but more as a healing one you have that conception that its a hybrid that shouldnt be doing competitive dps, why????? Feral is a dps spec and as such it should do its job at delivering competitive dps. Why bother having a dps spec if it should be shit and not do well?
    If you are a feral your role is a melee dps damage dealer and not some hybrid whatever.
    Yes Druid as a class has its choices, you can be al tank, healer, ranged dps, melee dps but the specs whichever you choose they are what they are, they are not hybrids and as such they should be competitive.
    No one said hybrid spec. Hybrid class. A hybrid class is a class who can do many things but masters none. And therefore, back to the point, why would anyone play feral over a rogue, just as an example.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Fliida View Post
    No one said hybrid spec. Hybrid class. A hybrid class is a class who can do many things but masters none. And therefore, back to the point, why would anyone play feral over a rogue, just as an example.
    So our application to a raiding guild would be... "I will never top DPS meters, I will never be able to tank much damage, I will also never be able to heal as well... but hey! I can do it all! ... Just mediocrity."

    Hm. Score.

  8. #68
    Join a guild that doesn't give a shit what you play.

  9. #69
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthael View Post
    So our application to a raiding guild would be... "I will never top DPS meters, I will never be able to tank much damage, I will also never be able to heal as well... but hey! I can do it all! ... Just mediocrity."

    Hm. Score.
    Absolutely, I'd rather bring a jack of all trades than a feral dudu.

  10. #70
    SO by your logic Paladin is a hybrid, priest is one, warrior and monk and those should only have mediocer specs just because they have a choice of more then doing just one role

    Just because you have a choice doesnt mean your a hybrid. And there is no official statement where it says that druid is a master of none and jack of all trades. Thats just something you made up in your minde
    But anyway Fliida you see it that way, have fun with it. Dont stress to much about it
    Last edited by gardner; 2016-06-11 at 01:22 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fliida View Post
    Absolutely, I'd rather bring a jack of all trades than a feral dudu.
    Warning : feral hater and baiter over here

    Topic:
    Meh I really want them to scrap SR or buff the duration and buff our aoe, thats all I ask for

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthael View Post
    It is being considered and was there in the initial testing - they might have scrapped it (which is unfortunate, I was excited about the item). The new feet (predatory x 3) and +100 max energy for cat is still pretty amazing.
    If that was in the initial set then it's been gone a long time because I've never seen it.

    The +100 energy legendary is completely useless, at least in PvE. Maybe useful in PvP when you have less uptime. I'm pretty sure the one that gives bleed tick crits a chance to generate a combo point is going to be the big mandatory one, with the second depending on what you primarily do (25% damage/radius to Thrash will probably be best in dungeons, maybe the Predatory Swiftness one for raid bosses?).

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    If that was in the initial set then it's been gone a long time because I've never seen it.
    I haven't played in Beta as much due to RL stuff; mostly coming from Alpha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    The +100 energy legendary is completely useless, at least in PvE. Maybe useful in PvP when you have less uptime. I'm pretty sure the one that gives bleed tick crits a chance to generate a combo point is going to be the big mandatory one, with the second depending on what you primarily do (25% damage/radius to Thrash will probably be best in dungeons, maybe the Predatory Swiftness one for raid bosses?).
    Ya the two that'll be priority are the primal fury augment, and the predatory swiftness augment. I am not sure if the thrash one will be relevant at all, considering you get 30% damage from the predatory swiftness + blood talons - you can just use it on one thrash and it'll be better than the 25% static, and then you won't really use thrash until its in pandemic, in effect you can save up another predatory swiftness. Meanwhile all the other blood-talon procs can go towards swipe.

    The issue I can potentially see with Primal Fury augment is that you can overcap on CPs; since its per tick per bleed - netting you 3 CPs [Crit Rip/Thrash/Rake] (7% chance that this can happen, so its not like obscene either). wtb anticipation.

    That said, if SR remains as is, and Jagged Wounds is as powerful as it is (i.e. the other two aren't really balanced as well), then (at least in the early stages), the +100 energy will let you get away with running the aggressive set up. At the moment, that build suffers from inconsistent Rip uptime and little-no energy for FBs. Still to be tuned of course - so can't see how the build develops to live.
    Last edited by Arthael; 2016-06-11 at 06:44 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthael View Post
    Ya the two that'll be priority are the primal fury augment, and the predatory swiftness augment. I am not sure if the thrash one will be relevant at all, considering you get 30% damage from the predatory swiftness + blood talons - you can just use it on one thrash and it'll be better than the 25% static, and then you won't really use thrash until its in pandemic, in effect you can save up another predatory swiftness. Meanwhile all the other blood-talon procs can go towards swipe.
    Depends on if Brutal Slash is better for dungeons or not. If you are using Bloodtalons then yeah, that might be better there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthael View Post
    The issue I can potentially see with Primal Fury augment is that you can overcap on CPs; since its per tick per bleed - netting you 4 CPs per AA [AA Crit + Rip/Thrash/Rake Crit] (7% chance that this can happen, so its not like obscene either). wtb anticipation.
    Possible, but it's still going to be a major DPS/gameplay improvement either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthael View Post
    That said, if SR remains as is, and Jagged Wounds is as powerful as it is (i.e. the other two aren't really balanced as well), then (at least in the early stages), the +100 energy will let you get away with running the aggressive set up. At the moment, that build suffers from inconsistent Rip uptime and little-no energy for FBs. Still to be tuned of course - so can't see how the build develops to live.
    The thing is, that extra 100 energy is only useful for the opener, and for any times where you have extended downtime. As long as you're actively attacking, that extra energy is never coming back.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    Depends on if Brutal Slash is better for dungeons or not. If you are using Bloodtalons then yeah, that might be better there too.

    I have never seen anybody say Brutal Slash is adequate for dungeons.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    I have never seen anybody say Brutal Slash is adequate for dungeons.
    I've never seen anyone say it's not, either (aside from you, but I don't take anything you say seriously). But tuning has barely started so it's too early to make that call anyway.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    I've never seen anyone say it's not, either (aside from you, but I don't take anything you say seriously). But tuning has barely started so it's too early to make that call anyway.
    Check the beta forums. The feedback on Brutal Slash is overwhelmingly negative.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddabear View Post
    Check the beta forums. The feedback on Brutal Slash is overwhelmingly negative.
    Right. So I just scanned through all ten pages of the Feral feedback thread for any mentions of Brutal Slash. I found several posts saying Brutal Slash shouldn't replace Swipe (obvious), one mentioning that Scent of Blood didn't work with Brutal Slash talented (out of date), one saying how much they loved Brutal Slash, and one talking about how the design made it the obvious choice for any fight with AoE phases. Nothing at all about how "adequate" it is for dungeons. There is a post expressing worry that Feral will still be bad for dungeons due to its poor AoE, which is absolutely a concern, but it's not related to Brutal Slash directly, more to the fact that Brutal Slash does not fix the issue of Feral's base AoE being horrible.

    So where exactly is this feedback you claim exists?

  19. #79
    To the comment about earning a spot as feral:

    As far as "in Legion" goes, who knows? Legion hasn't dropped and a lot can still change. Maybe Blizz derps the tuning and feral wrecks ST, so people just spam /2 with "LF15 ferals" and you sign up. Maybe it's the opposite and you get "Feral need not apply." So yeah, who knows?

    As for raiding in general, in many ways it simply boils down to whether you're last on the DPS charts. Unless the RL is a moron, he/she isn't going to replace a DPS in the top half, no matter the spec, unless he/she knows the replacement will be better. One doesn't trade a feral DPS at, say, #7 for a mage. You go to the #15 DPS in order to boost the overall DPS. Sure, utility is sometimes a factor, but generally speaking, a good DPS is a good DPS and you keep them. 60k from a feral is basically just as good as 60k from a DK, so unless you're an ass and no one likes you (or the DK is the RL's significant other), you're good. On the other hand, if you're the guy who barely manages to be above the tank and it's pretty clear from logs that 98% of all players are better than you, then why should the RL keep you when there's almost a 100% chance he/she could do better? But if you know the class and put up respectable numbers (and don't derp mechanics), you'll always have a spot because there will always be someone on the team who's worse.

    TL;DR: you earn a spot in a raid as feral by playing the class competently (or better) and being someone people don't hate as a person.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Rin View Post
    Right. So I just scanned through all ten pages of the Feral feedback thread for any mentions of Brutal Slash. I found several posts saying Brutal Slash shouldn't replace Swipe (obvious), one mentioning that Scent of Blood didn't work with Brutal Slash talented (out of date), one saying how much they loved Brutal Slash, and one talking about how the design made it the obvious choice for any fight with AoE phases. Nothing at all about how "adequate" it is for dungeons. There is a post expressing worry that Feral will still be bad for dungeons due to its poor AoE, which is absolutely a concern, but it's not related to Brutal Slash directly, more to the fact that Brutal Slash does not fix the issue of Feral's base AoE being horrible.

    So where exactly is this feedback you claim exists?
    Here is some:

    Really unimpressed with Brutal Slash overall... really didn't think it was all that great. Feels like far too narrow application, honestly. No synergy with Predator--which is the clear AoE talent in the first row--and the new, longer cooldown is too long to be convenient for trash pulls.
    In a vacuum, it's seems like a nice upgrade to Swipe, but in many realistic situations it isn't. The fact that we lose Swipe makes it so we lose our AoE generator when the cooldown is not up... and on sustained trash pulls or even burst waves that don't go as quickly as expected, only having 3 AoE globals is really not all that much.

    I don't think the cooldown on Brutal Slash is the problem, per se... but more that if it is going to be on a cooldown, it needs to do very significantly more damage than what it does now. The cooldown can't really be removed and still be strong because then it replaces Shred really easily. (Which is essentially the design flaw with Swipe as well...)
    Personally, I'm just disappointed that they have been willing to add conditional cleaving or proc mega-AoEs to other classes so that the AoE mechanics fit in better with the existing rotation rather than Brutal Slash approach.
    I gave the example above for Fury just because their entire AoE toolkit just works a lot better overall and their AoE talents are more impactful and fit their existing rotation much better. Wrecking Ball procs and makes their next Whirlwind free and hit like a truck, then Whirlwind's effect procs and makes their next Bloodthirst cleave 4 additional targets and generate extra rage, and they can also talent into Meat Grinder to make Whirlwind cause their next Rampage (which is paid for by the fact that Whirlwind is free and the extra Rage from Bloodthirst) cleave 4 additional targets as well. It just fits together in a pretty interesting way with good results.
    We get Brutal Slash, which is too limited in scope, doesn't do enough damage, and does nothing to address the other DoT-related issues we have with short-lived targets. They could have done something significantly more interesting with some DoT spreading mechanic, a cleaving mechanic, extra CP generation, or whatever...but Brutal Slash is just Swipe+ and really doesn't address any of the core issues with our AoE toolkit.
    There just isn't anything interesting or synergistic here. Giving up Bloodtalons is a massive loss and Brutal Slash just doesn't pencil out because it isn't impactful enough even in pure AoE scenarios.
    We need AoE mechanics a lot more than we need AoE abilities. Swipe has been limited by rotational mechanics more than anything else and making it into a talent doesn't really change that, it just "steals" away some of the damage from Bloodtalons as a band-aid.

    Every DPS class needs to have a way of dealing with the "core" damage patterns that come up in all encounters. The way at which they do that can vary wildly, but it should not preclude their ability to do it.
    This is what the current talent design philosophy is supposed to offer, in theory. The ability to change your class play-style at the expense of something else. The issue is that Brutal Slash doesn't actually accomplish this, because it is mechanically not sufficient to do so.

    I agree that ferals fall off but not once this xpac has feral been good on AoE. Yea I think that Brutal Slash will get buffed but thats not the point, because of the spells design it will just never be that good unless it is reworked somehow. Also I do think that the devs will leave feral in a poor state thats just the sad thing about it this entire xpac blizzard has left feral without good AoE and target swapping abilities. The only reason feral felt good in BRF was because of the 4 piece, because you could pop your cds and actually destroy a target but that was only with the 4 piece. It seems like the only way the devs know how to fix feral is through set bonuses as shown throughout this entire xpac. And this a feedback forum so I'm giving my feedback that feral blows and changes need to be made.

    The issue with the design of Brutal Slash is that there is really only so high it can go before it starts being a problem for balance vs. Bloodtalons. It essentially can never contribute more than Bloodtalons or it becomes the go-to in all encounters. It's basically recreating the "Swipe can't be better than Shred" problem in another area--just Brutal Slash can't be better than Shred+Bloodtalons. On the other hand, you can see more varied mechanical solutions in other classes such as enabling AoE splash damage that adds a lot of AoE potential without being a single-target DPS gain.
    My feeling is that Brutal Slash as a talent would be better served trying to add something that more directly addresses our lackluster AoE mechanics as a whole, rather than just being Swipe+.

    I'm not a fan of the design of Brutal Slash.
    The damage is fine but the talent feels restrictive in that it doesnt really improve our AoE, it just front loads it in a small window and outside of those windows our it actually makes the AoE problem a lot worse.
    I think it would be in a good spot if it didn't replace Swipe.

    Likewise, Bloodtalons is going to be pretty hard to ever break away from. It's extremely strong due to its synergy with core Feral gameplay (one could argue it should just be a baseline component of Predatory Swiftness) and stuff like Brutal Slash and MoC have a huge uphill battle to climb to be competitive.

    Brutal Slash is still very "meh" both from a damage and rotational perspective. It's mechanically boring and may as well just increase the damage of Swipe. The cooldown is awkward and limits its value significantly on a number of fights that we've seen so far.

    I would also prefer for Brutal Slash to not replace Swipe Entirely so we actually have something to hit for AoE when it is on CD. Talents like Bladestorm don't replace the Base AoE toolkit for warriors, why does Brutal Slash have to replace the base toolkit for Feral?

    Brutal Slash
    Still pretty mediocre for what we have to give up for it, and very niche. In Spellblade Aluriel testing using the ability felt pretty satisfying, and it was definitely doing some damage, but when I went to review logs when it was over I was underwhelmed. I was below middle of the pack on add damage still, and I was giving up Bloodtalons to get to that point. There are specs that do more AoE damage than us without any talents, and the ones that do use talents largely take them with a far smaller opportunity cost than the cost that is Slash vs Bloodtalons.
    I also want to add that Aluriel was an almost textbook example for a good Bloody Slash fight with a bunch of adds only in 50-60s windows. There will be, and has already been, several raid encounters where Brutal Slash wasn't even worth trying just because of the timings and styles of adds on the encounters. If that's the case and I'm still not sold on it on a fight like Spellblade Aluriel something is wrong.

    Our AoE is in a very, very bad place right now. Brutal Slash and the Swipe buffs have not helped. We need something more substantial here.

    Brutal Slash is not going to keep us from being benched, IMO. It is only good in a very narrow set of circumstances and a "single talent" argument applies to Wrecking Ball as well, which is significantly more impactful than Brutal Slash. Taking Brutal Slash also ensures that our ST damage suffers very significantly, which is more of a loss than most specs have to incur for their AoE.
    If Feral ends up as a "single target focused spec" again, it is (unfortunately) unlikely I will play the spec in Legion. It is simply too problematic for Mythic progression and no longer fits the modern raid design paradigms used by Blizzard.

    I'll go ahead and elaborate on Brutal Slash.
    There are many talents across all classes that replace a baseline ability with another, more powerful ability. I don't think anyone disputes that Brutal Slash is "more powerful" than Swipe. The difference is that while Brutal Slash is adding some good Burst AoE to the spec, it is removing our only spammable cleave/aoe spell.
    This is just contradictory to what talents generally do, which is offer a meaningful (sometimes) choice about how your spec will play and what they will be good at. The opportunity cost of taking Brutal Slash should be losing Bloodtalons or Moment of Clarity. Right now it is that PLUS the loss of an ability to hit instead of Shred when 3+ targets are around. This would be like Bladestorm replacing Whirlwind for warriors, warriors would be throwing a fit if that was the case, so why are we put in that position?
    Doing 5mans, particularly Mythic+ Keystone dungeons, feels awful with the talent because of how important being effective on trash is supposed to be. And unlike a raid encounter, the majority of your time is spent with 3+ mobs around. So you use your charges, the warrior next to you uses bladestorm. And you both do some pretty good damage. But now the mobs are still at 50% and you have no AoE spell to keep hitting while the warrior can keep using whirlwind. And then it gets worse when you move on to the next pack and get maybe 1 charge of Brutal Slash to use while the warrior is just spamming whirlwind.
    Just let us keep swipe, it's not like swipe can compete at all with the baseline AoE of most specs.

    Brutal Slash: A talent that lets us compete with the Baseline AoE of most specs shouldn't prevent us from having access to Swipe. This is particularly aimed at Dungeons, specifically Mythic+ Keystone dungeons where 80% of your time is spent on Trash packs. The talent feels awful in that scenario. And I want to be viable for high level Mythic+ Keystone runs (not asking for #1 in the world here, just competitive with the likes of warriors and Demon Hunters)

    If you take Brutal Slash for dungeons, you are out of your mind. It is terrible for dungeons.
    It doesn't do nearly enough damage to warrant losing Swipe. Maybe you see the 1800% damage value and think "wow that's a crazy number"
    But I suppose you fail to realize that feral having a 1.0 attack speed means it hits for significantly less than the co-efficient seems to indicate.
    We're talking about all 3 charges hitting for less than half of a bladestorm, and bladestorm doesn't consume resources, and doesn't replace the baseline AoE of warriors.

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