The problem with left vs right on mmo regarding refugees

[Slant]

The gall of these migrants, to show up uninvited into someone else's country, disrespect local customs and culture, and go around acting like they own the damn place.

Are you actually referring to the England football fans tearing up that street in Marseilles?

You deserve the actual, literal Internet as a reward for that.

[Alydael]

Never seen "leftists" defending mindless immigration in this forum or importing crime for that matter, it's just xenophobic right-wingers percieving everything as immigrant worshipping. Most of what you call leftist do not even self-label as such. The term "leftist" is mostly expressed in attack posts from your usual illiterate right wingers.

So you would imagine that, somehow, the attacks towards the "right" are different? I don't identify as "right" or "left," I just watch from outside the box- but both sides basically use the exact same attack strategy.

[Deleted]

The South East of England hasn't taken many asylum seekers or refugees in the recent crisis.

Yet immigration remains extraordinarily high.

Our public services are stretched to the limit.

I am definately a victim of mindless immigration.

Controlled immigration must happen, or my local area will disintegrate into a worse shit hole than it already is.

Im sure there is an appropriate thread somewhere concerning your issues.

[Alydael]

Europe is taking in immigrants, not refugees. The moment they leave their camps in Turkey and Lebanon in which they`re safe - they become migrants.

And fuck me in the ass, just yesterday a Syrian family was interviewed and they openly said that they considered leaving my country because we didn`t provide enough goods for them and the daily ratitions they recieved lacked ''imaginiation'' (as in beint rice/buckwheat/potatos and no ''exotic'' seasoning).

Spoiled fucks think Europe will go out of it`s way to appease all of their needs. Die in Aegean, fucks.

What did you expect? The more concessions you make, the more they will expect..... (it has been the same throughout all of history).

Instead of just "let them all in" or "let none of them in," Why not make an intelligent calculation on how much your country can handle (based on resources) and just let some in? I really don't see the purpose in letting more in than your economy can handle (that just creates a crisis and bad blood) and you do want to try to help, just do it the smart way. Why does it have to be "all or none?"

[Deleted]

Europe is taking in immigrants, not refugees. The moment they leave their camps in Turkey and Lebanon in which they`re safe - they become migrants.

And fuck me in the ass, just yesterday a Syrian family was interviewed and they openly said that they considered leaving my country because we didn`t provide enough goods for them and the daily ratitions they recieved lacked ''imaginiation'' (as in beint rice/buckwheat/potatos and no ''exotic'' seasoning).

Spoiled fucks think Europe will go out of it`s way to appease all of their needs. Die in Aegean, fucks.

Embarrassing.
Anyway, camps in Turkey and Lebanon aren't safe. Inform yourself before opening that mouth of yours.

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So you would imagine that, somehow, the attacks towards the "right" are different? I don't identify as "right" or "left," I just watch from outside the box- but both sides basically use the exact same attack strategy.

I have seen several times people asking for extreme solutions to this crisis... from shooting boats, to bombing the areas... I have never seen ANYONE claiming all people coming are legitime refugees and they should all be welcome cause shits and giggles.
So yeah, no.

[Deleted]

Oh Slant, you dare preach to others about legal bullshitting? The hypocrisy is unreal, but sure, I'll bite for the sake of the argument.

Being a refugee is a legal status applied to you based on the geneva conventions on refugees.

No. No. No. NO! Refugee status can only granted by a country or the UNHCR if, and only fucking IF, they make a FORMAL claim for asylum.
If they don't, then there is absolutely no legal distinction between them and any other illegal immigrant.

Asylum seeker is a legal status applied to you by the country that you seek asylum in.

Asylum seeker? The hell it is. Stop smoking weed.

An asylum seeker is a person who flees into another country and applies for asylum, i.e. the right to international protection, in this country. An asylum seeker may be a refugee or an economic migrant. A person becomes an asylum seeker by making a formal application for the right to remain in another country and keeps that status until the application has been concluded.

Only and only when their application gets reviewed and accepted are they granted asylum and they become a legal refugee in that country. The term asylum seeker does not equate refugee, no matter how much you twist your words.

Immigration is yet another legal status based on different legislation of the country you want to immigrate to. All of those are seperate legislation, seperate statuses and have seperate consequences for the people involved.

You say this first and then, in the next sentence:

All of them are MIGRANTS in the definition that they're moving from A to B.

So what exactly pisses you off about my post? Are you arguing semantics or legal definitions? Because it's hard to hear you all the way up on your high horse.

The term literally meaning "mover", nothing else. So the next time you want to bullshit your way through legal definitions and accuse someone of not knowing his stuff, how about you don't? Chances are there are half a dozen people on here who understand the material better than you.

No buddy, you don't understand, you just think you do and get upset when others don't share your deluded perceptions.

[Belize]

No it isn't.
Europe faces an influx of refugees.
Refugees are NOT immigrants.
Learn the difference.
There's an exception applicable to a few countries, like Sweden who immediately grant immigration status, but that does not change the overall fact.
A refugee is not an immigrant.

Too bad most of them are not refugees but economic migrants. Unless they're from Syria, and Iraq to a crtain extent, they are not refugees.

Sorry.

[Deleted]

What did you expect? The more concessions you make, the more they will expect..... (it has been the same throughout all of history).

Instead of just "let them all in" or "let none of them in," Why not make an intelligent calculation on how much your country can handle (based on resources) and just let some in? I really don't see the purpose in letting more in than your economy can handle (that just creates a crisis and bad blood) and you do want to try to help, just do it the smart way. Why does it have to be "all or none?"

Because we're not Canada or Australia. We are RIGHT NEXT to this crisis. We don't get the option of "carefully handpicking the ones we like most". The selection used to be done outside our countries. Now we fucked up libya iraq and syria, and the selection is done on our shores.
Dont like it? Complain to those cowboys we have as "allies" and all the lapdogs that supported them in their ravaging.

[Karon]

No it isn't.
Europe faces an influx of refugees.
Refugees are NOT immigrants.
Learn the difference.
There's an exception applicable to a few countries, like Sweden who immediately grant immigration status, but that does not change the overall fact.
A refugee is not an immigrant.

the only difference is that an immigrant can seek work so that he at least is useful and can help shoulder the cost he's causing.

[Forogil]

You're saying "What is happening in Europe now is mindless immigration." and let's just assume you mean that to open up discussion. My problem is that I'd have to immediately stop you in your tracks and tell you "No, it's not immigration at all. It's refugees being given shelter."

What happened last year in Europe might possible be called mindless immigration - but it is no longer the case. The only remaining major route is the central med one (but it hasn't dramatically increased yet), and if that becomes a larger problem it seems that plans are already made to handle that.

The top countries of asylum applications last year in Germany was in order: Syria, Albania, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia. To describe that as 'refugees given shelter' is hardly correct.

[Brexitftw]

The gall of these migrants, to show up uninvited into someone else's country, disrespect local customs and culture, and go around acting like they own the damn place.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

You've seen exactly what happens when the wrong type of immigrant is let loose.

PROVING THE POINT that immigration MUST be controlled.

Even though you think you was debating against me to prove a point, you ended up making the exact same arguement as me.

[Paklaaji]

Embarrassing.
Anyway, camps in Turkey and Lebanon aren't safe. Inform yourself before opening that mouth of yours.

Your tone of unearned moral superiority is embarrassing.

Yes, the camps have problems. Newsflash : the situation is the same in the Calais and other camps in Europe. Rape, crime, smuggling - you name it. But there is no war in them.
Europe could easily gather all the support and resources to better their living standards in Turkish and Lebanese camps. Need timber? Can deliver. Need tents/mobile housing? Can deliver. Need provisions? Easy. Need doctors? MSF is avialiable.

But, no - they need to be imported here en masse. It`s time we call it what it is - a policy pursued by bourgeois metropolitian bohemians.

[Forogil]

the only difference is that an immigrant can seek work so that he at least is useful and can help shoulder the cost he's causing.

That is not a difference either. Some countries allow asylum applications to work - while their claim is processed, some even allow them to work if their claim is denied.

However, a work immigrant might need to have a work before immigrating.

[Deleted]

Too bad most of them are not refugees but economic migrants. Unless they're from Syria, and Iraq to a crtain extent, they are not refugees.

Sorry.

You know... you don't have to go to the LIBRARY to check that what you're saying is true.
Just fucking google shit, to make sure what you're saying isn't garbage before clicking "enter" alright?

Definition of refugee by UN:

A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war, or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.

"war" isnt the end all defining factor of being a refugee. God almighty this has been said HUNDREDS of times across DOZENS of threads. Read up and stop wasting precious interwebz space please.

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the only difference is that an immigrant can seek work so that he at least is useful and can help shoulder the cost he's causing.

That is because of regulations obviously. There were talks of letting refugees access labor market earlier on I think.

[Brexitftw]

What happened last year in Europe might possible be called mindless immigration - but it is no longer the case. The only remaining major route is the central med one (but it hasn't dramatically increased yet), and if that becomes a larger problem it seems that plans are already made to handle that.

The top countries of asylum applications last year in Germany was in order: Syria, Albania, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia. To describe that as 'refugees given shelter' is hardly correct.

Open borders to every member state is, in fact, mindless.

By very definition, there are zero control measures, and therefore, mindless.

[Deleted]

Your tone of unearned moral superiority is embarrassing.

Yes, the camps have problems. Newsflash : the situation is the same in the Calais and other camps in Europe. Rape, crime, smuggling - you name it. But there is no war in them.
Europe could easily gather all the support and resources to better their living standards in Turkish and Lebanese camps. Need timber? Can deliver. Need tents/mobile housing? Can deliver. Need provisions? Easy. Need doctors? MSF is avialiable.

But, no - they need to be imported here en masse. It`s time we call it what it is - a policy pursued by bourgeois metropolitian bohemians.

Unearned?

Die in Aegean, fucks.

Go hide in a corner dude. Seriously.

"Theres no war in them"... who gives a fuck dude. There's rape, human trafficking, smuggling and extremism... aka they are not safe. Not really that hard to understand.

"They need to be imported here". Wrong. as Everything else you said so far. They COME HERE because that's all they can do. When Gheddafi was up and running, sub saharian migrants were working in libya. When Syria was up and running, Iraqi refugees were working in Syria. Now that Syria is gone libya is gone and Iraq is gone, who the fuck is going to stop the inflow of migrants?

Picture a jug of water dropped on a table. You're getting angry at the water instead of getting angry at the ones who pushed it.

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That is not a difference either. Some countries allow asylum applications to work - while their claim is processed, some even allow them to work if their claim is denied.

However, a work immigrant might need to have a work before immigrating.

Oh yeah? Didnt know that, thanks for the info. Just out of curiosity, which countries allow them to work while their claim is processed?

[Hana Song]

The best thing you could do is stop taking them
Put yourself first, only help others when it's no risk to you for helping

[Deleted]

The best thing you could do is stop taking them
Put yourself first, only help others when it's no risk to you for helping

Thanks cpt. Obvious but that really isn't an option in Europe.

[Hana Song]

Thanks cpt. Obvious but that really isn't an option in Europe.

It's only a matter of will

[Slant]

Too bad most of them are not refugees but economic migrants. Unless they're from Syria, and Iraq to a crtain extent, they are not refugees.

Sorry.

I think this is the main point of contention. And here's the deal with it: They may be economic migrants making claims that would give them refugee status to "sneak" their way in. This is essentially the accusation. I think we can agree that this is a possibility nobody can deny. The problem, however, is that they don't just "decide" to be refugees. It's a legal status they're granted. If they meet the criteria of being a refugee, they are a refugee. A hidden agenda to being an economic immigrant doesn't change the legal status of being a refugee.

However, it does change what happens once their refugee status is invalidated. Because at that point their hidden agenda will be revealed and they'll wake up from a dream into a rather harsh reality of being deported. At least that's the theory. Now, reality works slightly differently in that generally speaking, you don't want refugees to be refugees forever. At some point, human rights (specifically dignity) demand that you let them have a shot at actually functioning as a human. This includes working and earning money to buy yourself more than just a few token things to pretend you have a proper living. And this is where they can actually strive to being upgraded from refugee to asylum seeker to immigrant and to citizen. And if we're talking about a projected span of 10 years, that is probably the proper thing to do. Think about it. When they bring children with them, some of them will start going to school here. In German eventually, they'll make friends and stuff. Ripping them out of a safe environment with a chance at education is harsh.

In fact, Merkel was recently confronted with a girl that went to German high school and met the qualifications to go to university. Alas, with high school graduation, she lost the last thing that enabled her to stay here and she was to be deported to wherever her family originally came from. She actually broke down in tears in front of Merkel because she had to leave basically everything she knew (spoke perfect German, too) to leave for a country she has never actually seen, has shit education and doesn't mean anything to her.

That is what is happening. So we should stop pretending that everyone of them is staying here when we're consciously tearing people's existances apart just to follow the laws in the real world. I'm not telling you this sob story to make you feel sorry, I'm telling you this sob story to point out that even in this harsh case Merkel had nothing to say but "Well, that's how it is, sorry..."