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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiricine View Post
    Stay at home mom isn't a profession in the same way that not collecting stamps isn't a hobby. That being said, we really should have MORE of them, because raising kids is actually important and not something that should be farmed out (or stay at home dads, if its more practical to have mom work). The idea that this was feasible 40 years ago with a house and a pretty average job and now you need 2 incomes is a real tragedy.
    That's just it. Jobs don't pay enough to match inflation. When my dad was on his mid 20's back in the early 80's, he was making 30,000 a year as a flight instructor when his first mortgage was 80,000 for an older small house. Fast forward 25 years, my dad has averaged a six figure salary for the better part of the last 15 years, meanwhile at 25, I was making $14 an hour (29,000 a year) and a mortgage averages in the 350,000 range. I'd love to know in what world $14 an hour is a livable income for a family, and even two parents at that rate wouldn't even break 60,000 together. Couldn't get a mortgage at that rate for a house these days either. I know as a single male, I can only get approved for about $110,000 which won't buy you anything right now.

  2. #122
    It's interesting that this has devolved into land-owning or lack thereof, in European middle ages, when land was not owned, at all, until very recently. Peasants did not own the land, and neither did the lords until around the XVI century: well past the middle ages.
    The agricultural system they had was "open fields" (dunno what the specific name is in English), which granted different inheritable rights to both lords and peasants. It was some sort of utopian communism whereby the common folk all lived equally lamentable lives. Land was a common good that the community exploited inefficiently. So much for the tragedy of the commons, it could only work under very specific circumstances (namely no growth and no competition). But it did function marginally even through the industrial revolution and after.

    Be what it may, land was not owned back in that specific period.
    Much of the failure to reach an understanding is failing to address what specific culture or systems we're using as example. Family arrangements, like marriage, existed throughout. Heck, the one of the most compelling arguments going for gay marriage is that the institution is profoundly cemented outside of religion and the state: it was common folk entering specific contracts and arrangements.
    Housewives existed in different settings and implementations all throughout history. It's certainly not a development during the rise of the middle class. Though folks wanting to be housekeepers today probably think of the benefits that middle-class lifestyle brings, it nevertheless translates well enough to peasant societies: the unit tending the house and the children is relieved of certain field tasks. Be it work entirely as the early mid XX stereotypical housewife, or only tending the land on the less harsh tasks.

  3. #123
    Mechagnome Laraven's Avatar
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    As a mother I stayed home for the first 5 yrs until school and then went to college to be a Vet tech. I had to take out loans and keep up my GPA for 3 yrs. All the while still being a mom after school. After college, starting wage with a State licence as a Veterinary Tech was $8.00hr here in Maine. Daycare cost $400-500 a week....

    My ex made more money even without a HS diploma in commercial fishing ($900-2000 a day), I stayed home until they were all teens and legal to stay home alone. Now I can go back to work, but will have nothing to little in 401k for retirement even if I work the next 20 yrs. And Starting wage is STILL only $9-10hr 10 yrs later. So I'm in dept for the loans went to college for nothing, but my children were raised by me. With the morals I think are important to install in them. Not some stranger. Was I happy? Not fully. I was bored and depressed near the end. I felt very alone. But I wouldn't change a thing. My kids turned out awesome. These days I'm self employed doing what I love. And my children are all in school and working.

    Each family is different and need to pro and con out what is best for themselves.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    It's interesting that this has devolved into land-owning or lack thereof, in European middle ages, when land was not owned, at all, until very recently. Peasants did not own the land, and neither did the lords until around the XVI century: well past the middle ages.
    The agricultural system they had was "open fields" (dunno what the specific name is in English), which granted different inheritable rights to both lords and peasants. It was some sort of utopian communism whereby the common folk all lived equally lamentable lives. Land was a common good that the community exploited inefficiently. So much for the tragedy of the commons, it could only work under very specific circumstances (namely no growth and no competition). But it did function marginally even through the industrial revolution and after.

    Be what it may, land was not owned back in that specific period.
    Much of the failure to reach an understanding is failing to address what specific culture or systems we're using as example. Family arrangements, like marriage, existed throughout. Heck, the one of the most compelling arguments going for gay marriage is that the institution is profoundly cemented outside of religion and the state: it was common folk entering specific contracts and arrangements.
    Housewives existed in different settings and implementations all throughout history. It's certainly not a development during the rise of the middle class. Though folks wanting to be housekeepers today probably think of the benefits that middle-class lifestyle brings, it nevertheless translates well enough to peasant societies: the unit tending the house and the children is relieved of certain field tasks. Be it work entirely as the early mid XX stereotypical housewife, or only tending the land on the less harsh tasks.
    Given you're the most reasonable of those posting, the fighting between those two is because they're entirely misunderstanding each other (likely on purpose).

    Housewives have existed forever.

    Housewives in the sense that we think of them (your job is to clean, cook, and raise children and that's it) haven't. They did those things, but in addition to a fuckton of back-breaking work that would have driven most modern MEN insane, let alone most modern housewives; the "ancient" housewives would have been farming, gardening, tending livestock, MAKING food (no supermarket trips; churning butter, making bread, making cheese, harvesting and preserving, and generally a fuckton of other things related to food), house REPAIRS [not a men exclusive thing; helping to build your house as a housewife was kinda expected too] house defense (what, a bear / wolf / cougar / whatever comes and the man's gone.. do you just go die?), clothes-making and repair, and a crapton of other work that we've automated or sourced out. Housewiving in the modern sense did not exist unless you were very, very rich until fairly recently because most people either lived too rurally or too poorly to have nothing to do but take care of the kids if they wanted to not starve to death. The only thing that women really wouldn't be doing that men did would be long trips hunting or shopping (going to town was either the man or the entire family; the man and woman weren't going alone if they had kids in most cases).

    So yes, you will always find "housewife" in historic accounts. You will not, in the vast majority of folk, find anything like our modern version. That's all Sarahtasher (fuck, I have to defend her today???) was saying and for some reason this notion made people freak right the fuck out.

  5. #125
    Elemental Lord Lady Dragonheart's Avatar
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    *Shrugs* I'm technically a stay-at-home mother/caretaker. However, I also work with global finances, trade, and stocks online. Also, in addition to owning and managing my own little online crafting shoppe, I also do a bit of amateur modelling on the side. I would say that I'm happy, though, but I also have jobs while being at home.
    I am both the Lady of Dusk, Vheliana Nightwing & Dark Priestess of Lust, Loreleî Legace!
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    <3 ~ I am also the ever-enticing leader of <The Coven of Dusk Desires> on Moon Guard!

  6. #126
    Maybe some are happy. I mean, I'd be happier at home than being in my last job (phone based customer service.. blergh).

    I can easily see the backsides:
    - Lose out on your work life, imagine all the years you're not getting experience/building up seniority/falling behind on pension
    - How will divorce affect you? (well, this is MMOC, so "she'll get 50 % of his stuff!!!!!1") -> who will hire you if you've been gone from the work force for 10+ years?
    - You're never off. It's not hardcore work from 8.00-16.00, but your workday is spread out throughout the day, unlike "real" work
    - It can feel unfulfilling. "Wohoo, I've done the dishes", but at the end of the day, no one gives shit. I mean, the toilet could be shining and your arms filled with inflammation from countless hours scrubbing and cleaning, but no one - not even your family - will notice that. Except when it isn't done!
    - It can cut you off from adult interaction. I've read some 'complaints' about moms on maternity leave, which is close to a year here, and they do miss chatting with someone 18+. Maybe you know other housewifes you could talk to during the day, but rather than getting those hardcore discussions going (like here!) you'll talk about your children (or so I would imagine)

    Plus sides, for me
    - Plan my day how I want it to be. I don't feel like doing anything "housewifey" in particular? Well, then I won't
    - No bloody alarm waking me up!
    - No people! Blergh, people
    - I like cleaning, so win-win! (fucked up my wrists from working as a cleaner so I don't think I should go back to having it as a profession)

    Well, honestly, I see more bad sides than good ones, especially what the future is concerned (work experience/pension)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaerys
    Gaze upon the field in which I grow my fucks, and see that it is barren.

  7. #127
    Well, of course, work is miserable. Taking care of kids and house work are things you have to do anyway, it's not like going to work means you opt out of parenting.

  8. #128
    Modern inventions like washing machines/dish washers make keeping ones house kept a matter of hours rather than an all week job and pre-school/12 years of school take the parenting out of parenting for 8 hours a day. Monitor screens take the parenting out of the other 6 and microwaves/fast food are used by more parents today than the stove/oven to the point that people buy frozen peanut butter sandwiches rather than make it.

  9. #129
    Okay, I will try to rephrase it in a different way. Pick any show/book/series/comic occuring in a vaguely historic context. Do you see people of high ranks (AKA, that could afford to be idle or had to be idle for social rank) actually raising the kids, let alone cleaning the house or cooking ?

    ''Queen of the home'' for middle class/working class (AKA, rich enough to live on one salary, too poor to have house staff) is a relatively recent thing-for instance, in very traditional French Canada, it was not true well into the 1950s-.

    And once again, in American and Canadian farms, the whole family worked. The woman might had what could be labelled as ''feminine'' tasks, but those tasks are not comparable to modern housewives.

  10. #130
    Since this thread is still going...

    They scored 87.2 per cent in the happiness ratings. The others in the top five were those working in: hospitality and events management – 86.3 per cent; creative arts and design – 84.4 per cent; the charity sector – 83.9 per cent; leisure, sport and tourism – 83.7 per cent.
    The least satisfied were working in marketing, advertising and public relations, with a happiness rating of 53.8 per cent.
    A 1-5 percent difference from paid professions is not much (at least, those professions not in the bottom 5 rankings).

    I'm not surprised about sales jobs satisfaction rates being so low, but police and security officers' reported job satisfaction ratings were surprising. Wonder what the difference in satisfaction ratings are for US workers.

  11. #131
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    Apparently this poll didn't bother to question Railroad or Truck Drivers' wives when they made that claim. I have never seen so much vitriol from women as when it comes to having to raise the kids and take care of the house when their spouse is in those two fields.
    That's.....actually very true.

  12. #132
    Idk, my dad was a commercial airline pilot and my mom preferred things when he was gone (which was often).

    Not sure if that's a recipe for a happy marriage, though.

  13. #133
    The Unstoppable Force THE Bigzoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Idk, my dad was a commercial airline pilot and my mom preferred things when he was gone (which was often).

    Not sure if that's a recipe for a happy marriage, though.
    I can't imagine it being such.

    OT: Fuck raising kids. I hate kids.

    "you'll change" they say. Nope. I don't have the patience.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by The BANNzoman View Post
    I can't imagine it being such.

    OT: Fuck raising kids. I hate kids.

    "you'll change" they say. Nope. I don't have the patience.
    Relatives said the same thing to me and nope, haven't changed either. I'm the oldest of 5, no matter what I am DEFINITELY not going full brood mare status like my mother did.

    I like dogs, similar reward for less effort. Also less expensive.

  15. #135
    Old God Captain N's Avatar
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    It doesn't get better either Celista & Bigzo. In fact in some cases it gets worse. I have no kids of my own so certain relatives don't even consider me a real parent because I only have a step-daughter.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    It doesn't get better either Celista & Bigzo. In fact in some cases it gets worse. I have no kids of my own so certain relatives don't even consider me a real parent because I only have a step-daughter.
    I haven't even thought about what I'm going to do if I end up falling for a guy with kids yet. I know this is a very common situation but I feel like being a step-parent you get denied a lot of legal rights in the event of a a divorce or separation, unless you have gone through a formal adoption process.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistame View Post
    Of course they are. But the article goes a bit far. Raising children is not a job/profession. It's a life choice. Makes me wonder if the author is one of those who believes that stay-at-home mothers should be paid a "fair wage".
    Agreed.

    Overall though, is anyone surprised? You've got someone that 100% has complete freedom to do what they want, when they want for the most part. If you have children younger than school age, you have to play with, entertain, and care for them, but that's not hard in the least. Oh no a messy diaper once every two hours how will moms survive! Entertainment is easy, because you're either playing with a child or making them play by themselves in a confined space. Sure, you have to clean up, but it's really not that hard to run a vacuum and polish one a week.

    If I was able to stay home all day, sit around or do what I want and only have the most basic of child care needs, which really, children aren't that hard to care for these days, all while someone else makes sure my basic needs are met I'd be happy too.

    According to Salary.com, moms should be making $115,000 a year because they do the following: According to the survey, the typical stay-at-home mom works almost 97 hours a week, spending 13.2 hours as a day-care teacher; 3.9 hours as household CEO; 7.6 hours as a psychologist; 14.1 hours as a chef; 15.4 as a housekeeper; 6.6 hours doing laundry; 9.5 hours as a PC-or-Mac operator; 10.7 hours as a facilities manager; 7.8 hours as a janitor and 7.8 hours driving

    Frankly, they're just making crap up to make it like being a mother is so hard. I think it's safe to say we can immediately take the 3.9 from household CEO out, 7.6 as a psychologist, 9.5 as a PC operator, 10.7 as a facilities manager, 7.8 hours as janitor, and that brings that total down to 57.5. That can easily further come down because they're 100% speculating that stay at home moms are somehow the only ones that care for their kids, cook, clean their houses, do laundry, or drive. Maybe in the 50's women had that kind of role, but in 2016, I know of no women that would sit back and do all that for their man.

    I'd gladly trade my 9-5 for the level of comfort they're afforded. Sure, it might be a slight challenge for the first 4 years of life when moms are actually taking care of the child, but after that school exists and we're talking 6-8 hours a day of "me time."

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    When it comes time for a man to die and they ask him what off all his accomplishments he accomplished which one does he value the most, he'll always say his kids, no matter how rich and successful he is.
    Unless he has none.
    "So my advice is to argue based on the reasons stated, not try to make up or guess at reasons and argue those."
    Greg Street, Riot Developer - 12:50 PM - 25 May 2015

  19. #139
    The economics of stay-at-home vs. double earner households are kinda spurious. If both parents have a college degree and can actually make enough money to offset the egregious cost of day care (including the externalities of being called in as an emergency and then requiring an emergency babysitter) then sure, both parents should work. If not...there's a lot of math that goes into it: Cost of childcare, cost of food (and as an externality, quality of meals,) household maintenance, etc, etc.

  20. #140
    this is obviously because the white male patriarchy is suppressing their true feelings of dissatisfaction
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    A drag indeed.. when it is the government. Otherwise, one should not care.
    Apparently censorship is not a concern of the MMO-Champ Moderators

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