[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Vanyali]

I don't find this to be the case on anything that isn't an incredibly small mob. Rushing right out of Eye Beam and doing a 180 allows me to immediately begin the Annihilation train without losing or delaying a GCD.

Really depends on the size of the mob / the fight (if there's bad on the other side, a cleave, whatever reason you might not want to be over there). VR'ing out eliminates that issue entirely, which is why most people do it.

[Drahkais]

It would probably fine with a strafe VR across one side of the mob, but I think for a lot of people an issue of latency will come into play there. I have very low latency on Beta and my Fel Rush doesn't go very far most of the time. So all things considered your alternative is probably more consistent given those scenarios.

We'll see how it actually ends up playing out in raiding I suppose.

[Myta]

The only thing with this is the next momentum buff (the one that you're in meta for) would put you out of range. If you VR --> EB out --> FR in you're there for your meta, which is far more important than being in melee for your EB.

Keeping the buff with EB (without BF, which *does* require the full time) isn't really the reason you go back out, it's for the next momentum buff that's far, far more important to be in melee range for.

@Kaedis

Good stuff. Gonna have to remember this page when my mind glazes over and forgets the more technical stuff, at least until something drastic changes. Knew you'd have a much better explanation than I could ever come up with! Maaaaaaaaaaaath.

Come to think of it, with so much of our damage baked into Annihilation/Chaos Strike and EB canceling being perfectly valid that this can't remain in it's current state, ofc beta is beta. As it is right now though DH optimal DPS is a huge newb trap (Prepared/Momentum/Felblade makes the spec much more active then standing there spamming 3 buttons like most beta DHs do), and that DH's even using Demon Sweep at all are doing it wrong compared to maximizing Momentum fueled Annihilation spam. Eye Beam canceling can't go live, it's the defining ability of Demon Hunters so I expect Blizzard to buff it again if they find DH's canceling it to maximize Chaos Strike/Annihilations, it'd also make it so that DH's who cast their Eye Beams aren't 'doing it wrong' which is completely contrary to normal behavior.

That said I do want to see tuning to the chaos damage mastery so that we might see 'Mastery DH' competing with 'Crit DH', as well as some of the fire abilities changed over to chaos damage to accommodate a stronger mastery for the class. I also feel that Demon Dance being a CD and Chaos Strike not, Demon Dance/Sweep should likely be hitting harder on single target (and reduced damage past the first target to make sure it's not OP in aoe circumstances) than it does right now.

[Vanyali]

Yeah, I'm not meaning to say yours is invalid and you can't do it, just that it doesn't cover all the little weird what-ifs that would either put you out of range or get you killed in the same way. Really just comes down to player play and room for error, as most things do, and if it works for you that's the right way to do it!

[TheLimonTree]

Just curious, what's the advantage of canceling EB? Just get demonic faster?

[Kaedis]

Just curious, what's the advantage of canceling EB? Just get demonic faster?

You actually get longer Demonic. When they changed Demonic so that you got the full 5 seconds after Eye Beam finished, what they actually did is just made it so the Demonic buff started when you cast Eye Beam (like previously), but had the cast time of Eye Beam added to its duration. Hence canceling Eye Beam early nets you the normal 5s duration, plus what would have been the remaining cast time of Eye Beam. That means somewhere around 6-7 seconds, depending on whether you have Blind Fury and how quick you are to interrupt.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Question for testers: How does the new Demon Blades feel with Felblade? Genuinely curious since your guys' recent discovery of the change in how it functions under the hood.

[Sangomah]

Any specific talents other than DB and FBl?

[Kaedis]

Question for testers: How does the new Demon Blades feel with Felblade? Genuinely curious since your guys' recent discovery of the change in how it functions under the hood.

Felblade is a nice stopgap for continuing your CS rally. It also gets reset crazy fast after such a rally, since each melee strike has 2 chances to reset it (since it's procing Demon Blades twice). However, because of how bursty the Fury income is in a Demon Blades build, it'll often sit unused and off CD for several seconds until you manage to get enough of a Fury deficit to actually use it.

As I've highlighted before, though, Felblade will probably end up being the default top pick for that tier simply because it's the only one Fury-positive option.

Basically, Bloodlet is replacing a global that could be DB or CS with a zero-cost ability, meaning that it's competing with the weighted average damage (based on globals used for each) of DB and CS. First Blood is replacing a CS with a lower-cost non-Chaos ability. It's competing directly with CS, especially on damage-per-fury, but CS scales with mastery and scales substantially better with crit. Felblade, on the other hand, is replacing a Demon's Bite with a higher damage (~2x) ability that also generates 20% more fury (average). It's the only one that's going to stand the test of scaling, because as our globals spent on DB decrease, the proportion replaced by Felblade increases, and thus the benefit goes up. It's also the only one of the talents that does not compete with CS on damage-per-global or damage-per-fury, and since CS is without a doubt the best scaling ability we have, not competing with it means it's the only one that's going to survive the scaling war.

[Dimzum]

You actually get longer Demonic. When they changed Demonic so that you got the full 5 seconds after Eye Beam finished, what they actually did is just made it so the Demonic buff started when you cast Eye Beam (like previously), but had the cast time of Eye Beam added to its duration. Hence canceling Eye Beam early nets you the normal 5s duration, plus what would have been the remaining cast time of Eye Beam. That means somewhere around 6-7 seconds, depending on whether you have Blind Fury and how quick you are to interrupt.

So what I take from this is, single target take BF and interrupt EB immediately. Is there a breakpoint on the amount of mobs where one would want to let EB go for the full duration?

[Myta]

So what I take from this is, single target take BF and interrupt EB immediately. Is there a breakpoint on the amount of mobs where one would want to let EB go for the full duration?

It's optimal to cancel EB, but this shouldn't be considered normal or desirable for balancing reasons. It's also not 'bad' dps to full cast EB. I have been playing the Momentum+EB combo because it's still huge burst AOE damage in dungeon scenarios. It's also more like how you'll be playing on live. 100% EB canceling won't be allowed to go live.

[BiggestNoob]

So what I take from this is, single target take BF and interrupt EB immediately. Is there a breakpoint on the amount of mobs where one would want to let EB go for the full duration?

If you can get 2 Death Sweeps in during the haste window on the next build, then no. You'd always cancel because 2 Death Sweeps would dwarf the DPS that a full channel EB can do.

[Deleted]

Have they implemented any way to remove glyphs yet? The shattered souls glyph bug has made havoc unplayable.

[Vanyali]

Have they implemented any way to remove glyphs yet? The shattered souls glyph bug has made havoc unplayable.

Tome of the Clear Mind ---> Apply to spellbook spell

[Deleted]

Tome of the Clear Mind ---> Apply to spellbook spell

Thanks for the tip, It seems that vendors (including traveler's mammoth and expedition yak) sell vanishing powder again and it can be used to remove glyph effect.

[Kaedis]

Thanks for the tip, It seems that vendors (including traveler's mammoth and expedition yak) sell vanishing powder again and it can be used to remove glyph effect.

Ya, looks like that swapped it back to Vanishing Powder when they started implementing the Tomes of Tranquil Mind for talent swaps in the field.

- - - Updated - - -

Per request by Zyky on the official forums, I did some investigating of Fury of the Illidari:

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Rxk/edit#gid=0

Combat Logs: http://imgur.com/a/abatz

Results

I cast Fury of the Illidari 10 times. 4 of those 10 casts, it had 10 ticks, and the other 6 it had 12. 3 of the 6 12-tick casts, the damage done by Rage of the Illidari was below the total done by Fury of the Illidari. In all 3 cases, it was below Fury by exactly the sum of the last two ticks of Fury (the ones that occur almost the same instant as Rage hits).

Ancillary findings: Fury's damage can be blocked, as can Rage's (this might not be intended). Fury damage that is blocked is not counted towards Rage's damage (this is probably intended).

I've also posted a bug report on the issue: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745145478#1

If these ratios are accurate (though it's a very small sample size), we would on average lose 7% of Fury's damage, and a total of 12% of Rage's damage (including the 7% from Fury), due to the random loss of last pair of ticks, and the random ignoring of them by Rage.

Edit: Did a further 10 trials whilst naked. 4/10 Fury casts had only 10 ticks, and 1/6 of the 12-tick casts had an under-powered Rage, again by the sum of the last two ticks. Details on the second tab in the spreadsheet.

[Forde]

Ya, looks like that swapped it back to Vanishing Powder when they started implementing the Tomes of Tranquil Mind for talent swaps in the field.

- - - Updated - - -

Per request by Zyky on the official forums, I did some investigating of Fury of the Illidari:

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Rxk/edit#gid=0

Combat Logs: http://imgur.com/a/abatz

Results

I cast Fury of the Illidari 10 times. 4 of those 10 casts, it had 10 ticks, and the other 6 it had 12. 3 of the 6 12-tick casts, the damage done by Rage of the Illidari was below the total done by Fury of the Illidari. In all 3 cases, it was below Fury by exactly the sum of the last two ticks of Fury (the ones that occur almost the same instant as Rage hits).

Ancillary findings: Fury's damage can be blocked, as can Rage's (this might not be intended). Fury damage that is blocked is not counted towards Rage's damage (this is probably intended).

I've also posted a bug report on the issue: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745145478#1

If these ratios are accurate (though it's a very small sample size), we would on average lose 7% of Fury's damage, and a total of 12% of Rage's damage (including the 7% from Fury), due to the random loss of last pair of ticks, and the random ignoring of them by Rage.

Edit: Did a further 10 trials whilst naked. 4/10 Fury casts had only 10 ticks, and 1/6 of the 12-tick casts had an under-powered Rage, again by the sum of the last two ticks. Details on the second tab in the spreadsheet.

Happen to have any idea of why this occurs? Is it something to do with positioning of the glaives? I'm quite curious as to what could be causing this. If it functions like bladestorm/DnD, I don't see why it wouldn't cause the ticks to miss.

[Qlix]

So, I noticed this strange little black cloud with green eyes around me every so often. I think it happens when I use eye beam. Any idea what this might be?

Found it. haha

[Kaedis]

Happen to have any idea of why this occurs? Is it something to do with positioning of the glaives? I'm quite curious as to what could be causing this. If it functions like bladestorm/DnD, I don't see why it wouldn't cause the ticks to miss.

All of the tests were performed without my character moving, so the positioning wouldn't affect it. The ticks aren't missing, in the combat log sense, and the glaives most certainly are not actually physically simulated and only dealing damage to things that actually physically pass through in their animation. Both weapons tick every quarter second, but the animation of them makes a revolution every ~0.75-1 second (it's somewhere between 3 and 4 total revolutions over the duration).

If I had to wager, it's because the 12 ticks (every 0.25 seconds, starting 0.25s in) just barely fit inside the 3 second duration. Somewhere in the code, there's a check before Fury does damage to make sure the buff is still active (in fact, that may be the only check, and the damage ticker may not even bother to count the ticks), and they have a race condition where sometimes the buff falls off before those last two ticks, and sometimes it doesn't. Same thing for Rage, sometimes it starts calculating its damage before it has seen the last two ticks and thus doesn't take them into account. Race conditions are nasty, and super difficult to consistently avoid.

[Qlix]

Has there been any math or sims done to show how Momentum stacks up WITHOUT cancelling VR or FR? Even using it with a VR/Fel Blade combo it looks like the duration is too short to make use of any significant gains. It just doesn't feel right to me. I mean Ive been a strong advocate for keeping cancelling in - Im just curious what the numbers look like for those who cant be bothered or those who cant pull em off.